I shared the following in the comments section:
There is no question about homosexual behavior being sin in God's eyes. We know this to be true, but those who don't know God's Word apparently do not. All we can do is witness and share God's truth, pray for them, and hope that one day their eyes will be opened and they will realize the deception they are currently living under.
You have been steadfast in your loving witness towards Deb here. I haven't read all of the posts, but the ones I have read show the agape love of Christ in you while pointing out the dangers of impenitence.
As Christian believers, willful sinning is not to be on our radar screen! This is where we get the saying, "God forbid" from. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Not one jot nor tittle shall pass from the law until all is complete. The salvation, mercy and grace of Jesus Christ is not to be used as an excuse to continue sinning!
There are many verses that share this concept. Here are just a few:
1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
All we can do is plant such seeds of God's Word. Ultimately, it is up to the Holy Spirit's prompting to convict the heart of a person to turn from their way(s) of sin.
In Ray Pritchard's book called The ABC's Of Wisdom there is a chapter all about confession. He makes the point that as fallible, sinful human beings, we tend to want to conceal our sin.
Proverbs 28:13 - He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Pritchard writes:
The last words of each clause contain the most important truth. If you conceal your sin, you will not prosper. If you confess it and forsake it, you will find mercy. How hard it is to believe these words and to take them at face value. When we sin, everything within us screams out, "Cover it up. Turn off the lights. Bury the evidence. Destroy the tapes. Make up an alibi. Leave the scene of the crime. Run! Run! Run!
[Note from Christine: Have you been there and done any of that? I know I have!]
Something in our spiritual bloodstream causes us to run from the pain of confession. When God confronted Adam with his sin, the first man made the first excuse in history: "The woman you put here with me - she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it" (Genesis 3:12). Not a very noble answer. In the end he grudgingly confesses, but not before blaming Eve and, by implication, God.
Two key words deserve special attention. The first is confess, which means "to tell the whole truth." when we confess, we are not only admitting our sin; we are also agreeing with God's assessment of what we did. True confession begins with the notion that God is God and that we have knowingly violated His standards. The second word is renounce, which means "to abandon, forsake, desert, turn away from." True confession always leads to renunciation. If after confessing our sin we quickly return to it, or if we long to return to it, then we have missed the teaching of this verse and we will not find God's mercy.
Several years ago one of my brothers sent me some material from a Christian counselor. On one of the sheets he had done a takeoff on the words of Jesus in John 8:32, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." The counselor had added the phrase: "The truth shall make you free...but it will hurt you first."
[Note from Christine: Can anyone say Amen to that!!?? Sometimes the truth does hurt!!]
That strikes me as an extremely important insight. This explains why so many people struggle with their problems for years. They don't want the truth to hurt them...so they avoid the truth at all costs.Do they want to get better? Absolutely.
Do they know the truth? Intellectually, yes.
Then why don't they get better? Because they won't let the truth get close enough to hurt them. Instead, they erect a thousand defense mechanisms that deflect the truth before it hits home.
Which explains why you can go to church for years, listen to sermons for years, read the Bible and pray for years - and still not get better. "The truth will set you free, but it will hurt you first." When you are finally willing to be hurt by the truth about yourself, then - and only then - will you be set free.
Most people don't enjoy confessing their sins, so they avoid it whenever possible. But when we dare to take God at His word, we discover the joy of forgiveness. If you are willing to tell the truth about yourself, you can be set free.
Heavenly Father, give me the grace to tell the truth so that Your grace might make me clean. Amen.
Questions of self-examination to ponder:
Is it getting easier for you to say, "I was wrong"?
Why is confession such a crucial part of the spiritual life?
What happens when we refuse to confess our sins?
What sin do you need to confess right now?
Posts
34 comments:
Thanks Christine for posting this and teaming up with me in this spiritual battle.
I think the problem with Deb is she doesn't want to acknowledge the Truth about her sin and perversion. She is comfortable living her lifestyle and she cares not how many people she causes to stumble in the process.
She twists Scripture and redefines morality to fit in with her own agenda. Several times she makes statements such as "live for yourself" "do what feels good to you" and "follow your heart". On the surface those things might sound nice, but that kind of selfish mindset is completely contrary to what God says in the Bible.
Jesus says, "Die to yourself, take up your cross and follow me."
Jesus also said that "you will know them by their fruit" and the fruit of homosexuality is rotten to the core.
My prayer is that Deb will be exposed for the deceptive wolf that she is before she takes too many people down with her.
A young 14-yr-old "bi-sexual" girl named Taylor looks us to Deb and is being severely deceived by Deb's "loving" tactics.
Go here to read more => Controversy leads to tragedy
But thankfully Taylor is beginning to read the bible on her own now and hopefully she will discover the truth on her on without the negative influence of Deb.
Keep pressing on!
Thanks Again ~ Dani
I read through the thread you posted and I must say that you are doing all you can do to help Taylor not fall for the deception being unleashed upon her through Deb's obstacles, potholes and detours. The Holy Spirit who indwells born-again believers does not lead followers of Christ in any direction that is contrary to Scripture! Deb, unfortunately, appears to be doing just that. She is guilty of leading (or, attempting to lead) Taylor on a path away from God's will for Taylor's life.
You are helping Taylor to learn to lean on the Lord for understanding, not Deb's own convoluted mixture of false Christianity and secular humanistic views.
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
That is a beloved Bible verse. It's message clings to the soul because it speaks to a great need that we all feel - the need for guidance. Proverbs 3:5-6 suggest the basis on which guidance will come. It is a short course in knowing God's will for your life. Share it with Taylor again and again. If she learns what this passage is teaching and begins to apply it in her daily life, it will make a profound difference when she needs to make tough decisions. She will learn that to trust in the Lord is to rest her entire being upon Him. In the process, God will remove the obstacles, fill in the potholes that need to be filled and redirect the detour from a dead end to the path He desires for her to take. He promises to make our way straight! That's the promise of Almighty God to all who trust in Him!
Take a look at this site for the TRUTH.
Also, check out my book to see how my relationship with God is, as well as my experiences with God. It doesn't mainly focus on homosexuality, but deals with many issues regarding relationships and how you and everybody should have God has #1 before any relationship. It also deals with sin in our lives. We all sin, we all fall short.
Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, “Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,” when you can’t see past the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. ~Matthew 7:5
Everybody has a cross to bear, and everybody sins---and if you or anybody else says that you don't have sin in your lives, it clearly states in the bible that you would be lying.
Of course there are repercussions for not loving God, and not accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. That I believe. The worst sin of all that’s listed in the bible is not loving God with all your heart, and not loving your neighbor.
The only thing we can do is pray for one another, and love one another… We shouldn’t be throwing stones trying to ‘change’ people; only God can do that.
Yes, I understand that you believe homosexuality is a sin. In the Old Testament and in other various parts of the bible it does state that. Each person, including myself interprets the bible differently. For me? I believe that it was meant back in the days where they were going wild with orgies and had promiscuous encounters. Nowhere does it say that it is wrong for two people of the same gender to ‘love’ one another.
Where does “JESUS” say that it’s wrong? We all live in our physical shells which we were born as sinners originally. This will always conflict with the concept of spirituality and the close relationship that we should develop with God. If we can turn away from guilt, and come to God regardless of sin in our lives---HE will guide us to the right path. Each person is different, and God’s timing is not of our own.
Let God handle these situations and watch how His way is so much better. Religions throughout the years have been debating and killing one another over and over again. Why waste time hating, when we could be loving one another with respect and unconditional acceptance. God should be the only judge, don’t you think?
Thanks for the great post and allowing me to comment. I also want to say thank you both, Dani and Christine for praying for me. That’s the best gift anyone can get!
God bless!
Love,
Deb
P.S. Dani, I also wanted to comment on something you brought up earlier. I never said the book I wrote was better than the bible. In fact, I promote the bible in my book---for whatever conclusion that anyone will get out of it. The Holy Spirit will guide that person when they read 'the good word'. It is not of my 'doings' that the person will interpret it a different way----I state in my book, that we all need to meditate on the bible, and take in the great messages it has in it. My book promotes the bible. So please, if you never read my book before, do not comment about it. That's all. Read for yourself before you start making judgment calls. Thanks Dani!
No Thanks Deb, I have no interest in reading your book. The Bible says everything I need to know about human relationships.
That Gay Christian website is an absolute joke and I’m sorry for Deb who has been so misled and deceived by the homosexual community that she would even believe such rubbish as "TRUTH". Well, I guess you will believe anything when you want your ears tickled and you are desperately trying to justify your perversion.
I really don't even want get involved with this fruitless effort again as Deb has clearly indicated she that will never change.
Deb said this on my blog:
"This argument is tiresome, and there is nothing you can do or say to sway my beliefs. Sorry.
I will never leave my partner. End of story."
We all have asked several times for Deb to provide biblical scriptures to back up her faith and her relationship, but she has neglected to do so – perhaps because there are no biblical scriptures that support a lesbian relationship or any sexual relationship outside of marriage.
Putting your "lover" before God is a wicked form of idolatry and you are blaspheming the name of the Lord by remaining together with her. If grieves my heart to no end, but evidently there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind. It’s in God’s hands now and only He can truly convict your heart.
I’m washing my hand of this…again! I will be praying for you, Deb – and if you ever REPENT you will have a friend in me for life! Don’t loose my number – who knows what the next few years will bring?
So, when are you going to follow your own rules, hostess?
If Jesus came to fulfill the law, you should be out there killing homosexuals, not monitoring their conversations. That was part of the law long before Jesus arrived on the scene, and AFAIK, the order has not been rescinded. Are they exempt from “thou shall not murder” or not?
If they are, you have shown toward them very little of that agape love that you’re so on about.
If they are not, you have neglected your duty as a follower of Jesus (and since Christians believe God and Jesus are the same deity, you can’t wriggle out of it by saying, “Jesus didn’t say homosexuals are to be put to death.”).
You can wrestle with this difficulty on your own…unless you want to talk it over with dani. As for me, today will be spent in the company of people I find more pleasant.
Dani,
Well that’s okay if you don’t read my book—but do not make comments about it if you haven’t read it. That’s all I’m saying. The bible is the only book you need---although I do reference to the bible and promote the bible in my book.
The Gay Christian website is not a joke. It clearly states evidence that there IS NO evidence regarding what JESUS had to say about homosexuality. A sin is a sin and regardless of what you say, you have absolutely no right to judge another human being due to your inadequate sinful nature yourself. Smoking pot is a sin Dani. That’s destroying your lungs which is in “God’s temple”. Also it destroys brain cells. Your love for marijuana goes before God, does it not? Your ways of speech as you said to me once before—you tend to curse like a truck driver shows your character. There are so many things that we humans do that goes against God. This is why Jesus came to this earth; to save us from our sins. Are we ever going to be perfect? No. Can we rely and pray to God to help us? Definitely.
You have no proof nor provided ANY evidence of what JESUS says about homosexuality. I have given you MANY scriptures to back my beliefs up, but you keep going back to the OT and bible thumping me till no end. Ironic, huh?
This argument “is” tiresome, because we are two Christians who believe in different things. We will never, ever meet eye-to-eye on this Dani.
And, I DO NOT put my lover before God. My partner and I go to God together; we pray together and attend church together. I put God way before my partner, as she does as well. We come second to that. Do you put your husband before God? And, if we were ABLE to get married by the government, we would! So stop making such idiotic statements that are clearly pure ignorance and full of hate Dani.
Wash your hands of this, but you will continue to use my name in your blog to lavish up your numbers on your meter. It’s only numbers that are morbidly fascinated by you and your hatred. It’s like watching a horrific bug under a microscope. At least Christine’s message is full of love; full of compassion. Your message is nothing but hate. You tend to call people, ‘lesbian left winged losers’. Is that Christian-like? And for your information (seemingly you’re not too bright) not ALL gays are left winged. So get your facts straight and maybe it’s best to put your children to school, ‘cause apparently they’re not getting proper education by their mother. For you lack the intelligence and wisdom that comes from common sense. I feel really bad for you.
I do not wish to be your friend Dani. You are so full of hate that the negative vibes I get from you---would make me think you would kill or hurt someone who is different from you.
You are no different than a KKK member. And I see you as such. Your message is awful, and as I believe this to be true----God would not want you to be spreading hate.
Christine, I also want to just let you know how much I enjoy your writing. It's intelligently written and it seems as though you went to a good school or at least...graduated...unlike some.
Be well, and God bless!
GMpilot,
You argument about "killing homosexuals" is a tired one. If Christians were expected to go out and kill every sinner...they'd have to kill themselves too! Does that make sense? Of course not.
Someone already died for us and offers the covering of the sins of the world; that Person is Jesus Christ.
You are focusing on what the law says without any regard for the role of confession and repentance on our part, combined with the forgiveness, mercy and grace given to us through Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross.
If you read through the comments and links here, then you will see why Dani and I disagree with Deb's skewed Christian views (sorry Deb, but that's what God's Word has taught me to believe about homosexual behavior. It's God's Word, not mine). The Bible verses I posted with the admonitions of "God forbid" negate the claims that Deb makes regarding her take on Scripture.
GM, if you find this blog and my message board conversations (and the people...according to your last comment) unpleasant, then why do you still hang out at either place? I know, I know...you still want to counter what I originally posted (about 2 years ago?) at angels' helper. So here we go round and round again and neither one of us are changing our minds. Hey...sounds eerily similar, in a way, to Dani and Deb's battle...doesn't it?
What you still fail to realize, even though I have shared it several times here and at my message board, is the fact that we all deserve the death penalty. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The gospel message provides the only way to be forgiven for our sins and reconciled unto God for all eternity. You refuse to recognize the God of the Bible. You reject His Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, you reject the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who would lead you to all truth as revealed in the Bible. The truth is that we all die physically, but we need not die spiritually because of the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
I hope that you have noticed that this conversation is happening between Christian believers (which you have told me you want no part of anyway). The reason that the controversy over "gay" Christianity is so important is because this error is one that is revealed in the book of Jude and is one example of heresy and apostasy that is expected to increase as we inch closer and closer to the end times. I don't expect you to believe this, but I hope you can understand why Dani and I believe as we do and why we need to counter Deb's false gospel because that is exactly what it is.
Her message is one that is dangerously friendly with the secular humanistic world. Notice that I said her message, not her person, per se. The state of her soul is between God and her. All that Dani and I can do is point out the error(s) in her belief system and warn others not to follow such false beliefs. There are many verses in the Bible that warn us of doing that. As believers, we are to be set apart to be used by God for the purpose of sharing the gospel message of Jesus Christ. As my original post points out, the gospel forces all of us to "tell the truth about ourselves" and oftentimes, the truth hurts.
Deb,
Thanks for your kind words. You remind me of a blogger named Mamalicious who used to post here occasionally. We had the same type of argument going that you and Dani are having. We ended up leaving it as an "agree to disagree" scenario which I felt was truly tragic. So many times I wanted to tell her that I truly love her with the agape love of Jesus Christ. If I didn't, then we would not have had any kind of conversation.
I once read somewhere that the opposite of love is not actually hate...it's indifference. Indifference to the suffering of others, seeing the errors of those professing to be Christians yet still caught up in sin (any kind of sin, BTW)and letting them wallow in their brokenness, having the attitude that "they're all condemned to hell anyway so why should we care?" and a biggy that I have seen in many Christian minds - the idea of "let the Deity work it out." Well guess what? He HAS ALREADY worked it out and it is revealed in God's Word!
Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Here's a brief summary:
An argument according to which belief in God is rational whether or not God exists, since falsely believing that God exists leads to no harm whereas falsely believing that God does not exist may lead to eternal damnation.
A more indepth look can be found here, plus, there are thousands of websites both for and against the wager.
We could apply it to our arguments and conversations here. If Dani and I are wrong, then there is no consequence. If you, Deb, are wrong, then there is an eternal consequence!
As Christian believers, ultimately God's Word should be the final authority when determining truth. Humanism and relativism can claim that there is such a thing as "my truth" and "your truth". However, only God's Word reveals Absolute Truth and is to be revealed to the reader through exegesis, hermeneutics, Sola Scriptura and Scripture interprets Scripture.
Man's wisdom will never trump God's Wisdom. As finite, fallible human beings and followers of Jesus Christ, it is our job to discover the truth revealed through God's Wisdom in His Word; which is infinite, infallible and the Alpha and Omega of truth.
The most important commandment:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
--Matthew 22:37-40
Are you and Dani loving your neighbor? No. You’re picking and choosing sins and bashing the gay and lesbians with them. We are not hurting anyone, nor are we drifting away from God. Contrary, we are drawing near to God—has HE wants. He accepts us. You cannot tell me that God hates his gay children. WE ALL SIN. Why don’t you start listening instead of preaching? It’s that simple. We all fall short and we will continue sinning, as Jesus said that was His reasoning for dying on the cross for us.
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To those who strike you on the cheek, offer the other also."
--Luke 6:27-29
"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them."
--Romans 12:14
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you of the world, therefore the world hates you."
--John 15:18-19
None of these apply to you, huh? You do not love your enemies. You criticize them. Dani has cursed me due to my homosexuality and also has called me a ‘loser’.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
-- Galatians 3:28
Umm…yeah…hello! This states that we are all equal in God’s eyes.
"God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows another person's thoughts exect the spirit of the person which is in them? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit."
--1 Corinthians 2:10-13
We continually pray to God and He gives us the wisdom and courage to speak about Him; to give others the message of love…not hate. Your message is negative. (Not your person.) Your message sends people feeing from Christ. Do you want people to run from God? Or would you rather see people draw near to God? You are doing a disservice to God by spreading your hateful messages on the net and by even associating with Dani who is basically overflowing with hatred.
Jesus assures us of our value in Matthew 10:30. He tells us "even the hairs of your head are all numbered." He tells us later in John that he comes so we may have life and have it abundantly. You are a child of God, and worth defending.
My life has value, and my partner who I love with all my heart—has value. God loves us---and accepts us regardless of the lies you are believing. And that’s just it---you are spreading downright lies in order for people to hate themselves. It’s wrong, and God would look down on this! How can you sit there and type out things that are not true? The bible clearly states the warnings against judging other Christians; yet you seem to be doing just that.
I would focus on your own sins, your own flaws and your own inadequacies before even attempting to spew anymore of your hatred.
Jesus told the Pharisees in Luke 16:15: "you are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts." God knows my heart, God's spirit lives in my heart. I don’t need to justify my love between my beautiful partner of 12 years to people who are equal to the KKK. It’s actually silly to even attempt to argue with a bunch of bigots.
Christian love takes no joy in condemning others to hell. In our Christian love we do not demand our own way, we do not demand that everyone believe as we do. In our Christian love we do not boast that we have the only way to God, we are not arrogant enough to think our beliefs are right and all others are wrong. Christian love is not irritable or resentful. We do not resent those who do not believe as we do. We do not become irritable with their opinions. No, in Christian love, we bear all things, we hope all things, we endure all things, because love is eternal!
Maybe one day you’ll see that God is loving…and He accepts you, He accepts me and everybody else who loves Him with all their heart.
God bless! I will pray for you.
Deb,
As Christian believers, there is a world of difference between willful sinning and backsliding. Do you even admit that sexual acts with another woman is a sin in God's eyes? If you don't admit this, then how do you reconcile such a belief with God's Word?
Like it or not, Deb, these verses apply to ALL BELIEVERS and show the huge difference between believers who WILLFULLY CONTINUE IN THEIR SIN vs. those who backslide into sin occasionally. BOTH require confession and repentance. Willful sinning is an indication that repentance has not been taken seriously:
1Cr 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
The reason that homosexual behavior is front and center on this blog and many others is because it is the issue of our time. If someone was promoting prostititution, or adultery, or pornography outwardly and openly in our schools and churches (as is being done with homosexual behavior acceptance), then I would be sounding the alarms bells about those sins. I got into this debate because of the promotion that I saw at my daughter's high school and the start of a gay-straight alliance there. I continue in this cultural battle because the bodies, hearts, minds and souls of our children and grandchildren are at stake.
There were two posts that I linked at Dani's blog which give irrefutable evidence about God's position on this issue. Since you probably missed them, I will repost them here. Before I do, I must say that I (nor Dani) can condemn anyone to hell. People condemn themselves there when they reject Jesus Christ and his sacrificial death on the cross for man's sins.
Yes. God is loving. But he is also Holy and Righteous. When Jesus returns, he will return as the Lion of Judah to judge the living and the dead. There is no second chance once a person dies (or, when Jesus returns and a person is still alive at the time)for repentance. Telling people that they can just love others, go to church and not repent of their sins is leading them through the wide gate to destruction. Think about this, Deb. Who do those who agree with the secular humanistic worldview which is obviously anti-God, pagan and rejects Jesus Christ agree with? You or Dani and I? The answer is obvious. Of course they are more likely to agree with your current worldview (minus belief in Christ, of course). But they would likely agree that if Jesus Christ did and does exist, that He would somehow approve of their sexual proclivities because that's what they want in their own fleshly desires. That's certainly not a Biblical position to hold.
I can guess that you have already heard most of what I'm sharing here in your discussions with Dani. So, I probably shouldn't bother repeating them all. However, I will now share those two posts that show irrefutable evidence that Jesus Christ certainly said a lot against the sin of homosexual behavior.
The first post was a part of an analysis I did about a Larry King show segment when he had gay bishop Gene Robinson and lesbian Rev. Jo Hudson on the panel. The second post is an analysis done about what Jesus meant concerning the end times; that the signs would be as in the days of Lot. The commentary was originally written and posted by a friend back in 2003.
I realize that even after reading these, Deb, you will probably not change your mind. However, I need to post these here for the benefit of any readers who come to this blog so that they can see the difference between what you are offering through your opinions and comments vs. what the Bible says.
I appreciate that you are praying for me. I will pray for you as well; and specifically pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth. God bless you as well.
Christine
*******
Here are the posts:
ROBINSON: It's time for us to stop talking about being gay and start talking about God and telling the story of how God has acted in your life and in mine. And when we tell that story, people will come to see that the Jesus they know is the Jesus we know.
Analysis: Oh yes! Divert the attention away from the obvious controversy over elevating a person who thinks homosexual behavior is not sin (when the Bible CLEARLY says so), is unrepentant about such a sin, and is currently involved in homosexual sex with another male! This is the typical "gay mantra" device of homosexual activists. Steer people away from the unhealthy, abberant sex act and concentrate on only the 'good'. Well, that might work in secular humanism circles but it doesn't work at all for Bible-believing, born-again, Christ centered followers of Jesus Christ and His Word.
Sorry Gene. The "Jesus you know" is not the authentic Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, as He is revealed in the Scriptures. You are guilty of heresy and apostasy, exactly what is warned about in the book of Jude. More about this after I post Hudson's gobbledy-gook.
KING: Reverend Jo Hudson, you've heard our two distinguished members of the Episcopal faith. You're with the United Church of Christ.
REV. JO HUDSON, CATHEDRAL OF HOPE, DALLAS: I am.
KING: Where does that denomination stand?
HUDSON: Well, the denomination is radically different than the Episcopal Church in that the denomination lets congregations be self- determining and so they are in relationship by virtue of the fact that they covenant to be in relationship and to honor each other even though we may disagree.
Analysis: HUH?? The only thing that she is right about is when she says, "the denomination is radically different." Ya got that right! A "congregation that is self-determining?" Self-determining for what? For whom? Certainly not "determining" by the timeless, faithful, inerrant, infallible Word of God as revealed in the Scriptures! My next analysis portion will be long, but it will be necessary in order to reveal just how far this "reverend" is from God's Word. First, I will post the rest of her portion of this dialogue with King.
KING: So United Church of Christ in Miami could say no gays?
HUDSON: Right.
KING: And the one in Dallas as yours, could say yes?
HUDSON: Absolutely. And the thinking behind that is where the spirit of God is, where the risen Christ is. Then the people of God can determine what is best and listen for how God would have them be in the world.
KING: Are you a lesbian?
HUDSON: I am.
KING: What brought you to the church?
HUDSON: I fell in love with God.
KING: Didn't some of the teachings pretty much harm you, hurt you?
HUDSON: I never really...
KING: That it's a sin?
HUDSON: I never was -- well, they say that, you know, they say that women shouldn't preach in church, too. I have had to wrestle with the scriptures but the reality is is that I have found a relationship with God that I discovered in the church and want to be a part of a community of faith that brings that love to other people.
Analysis: Some of my regular readers may have already seen what I will copy and paste below, but I need to post it again to counter Hudson's opinion that sexually active practicing lesbian women is not sinful and that non-celibate "gay" clergy is OK. [Just a side note: substitute any other willful, non-repentant sinful behavior (e.g. adultery, fornication, polygamy, a thief, a murderer) and apply it to any clergyman. Would a true Christian church board or laity approve of such a person to lead their flock? Of course not!] First, notice that she slyly half-answered King's question. When he directly asked her if it bothered her, "that it's a sin" (meaning, obviously, lesbian sexual activity), all she said was, "well, they say that, you know..." then, she goes on to a completely different topic about "they say women shouldn't preach in church." Ignoring the precise subject involved in this controversy doesn't make it just go away, Ms. Hudson!
Many people similar to Ms. Hudson often say the "Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality." The following post will show how incorrect that premise really is.
Mission America statement:
Talking points from Mission America:
Consider these facts:
Jesus also never said anything about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?
There are many teachings and deeds of Christ that are not included in the Gospel accounts, as John writes in John 21:25.
Christ did say that God created people “in the beginning” as male and female, and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman joined together as “one flesh.” (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 ) Nothing is said about any other type of union.
When He discussed sexual morality, Christ had a very high standard, clearly affirming long-standing Jewish law. He told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more.” (John 8:11) He warned people not only that the act of adultery was wrong, but even adulterous thoughts. (Matthew 5:28 ) And he shamed the woman at the well (John 4:18 ) by pointing out to her that he knew she was living with a man who was not her husband.
Christ used the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God’s wrath ( Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11,Luke 10:12, and Luke 17:29). Throughout the Old Testament, prophets clearly described these cities as being notorious for the practice of homosexuality. (Genesis 18:20, Genesis 19:4-5, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekiel 16:46-59). Jesus certainly knew that this was how the comparison would be understood.
Christ was God incarnate (in the flesh) here on earth. He was the long-expected Messiah, which was revealed in Matthew 16:13- 20, Matthew 17:5-9, Mark 8:27-30, Luke 4:16-30, Luke 9: 18-21,John 4:25-26, John 8:57-59 and elsewhere. As one with God, He was present from the beginning (John 1: 1-13; Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 and elsewhere). So, Jesus was part of the Godhead as the laws were handed down through Moses to Israel and eventually to the whole world. This Old Testament law clearly prohibited homosexuality (Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:18 and elsewhere). The apostles understood this also, as shown by Paul’s writing in Romans 1:24-27, Peter’s in 2 Peter 2:4-22, and John’s in Revelation 22:15.
So--the apostles, who were taught by Christ, clearly understood that homosexuality was a sin as it has always been. When people say, “Jesus said nothing about homosexuality,” they reveal that they really haven’t understood Scripture, or Who Christ is. Maybe some of these points can help them toward a clearer understanding.
On another message board where this was posted, there were two well-said comments:
Post ID: 709 Posted by: pool6x, 2005-09-17 02:13:00
This was an excellent reply based upon the truth of the Bible. Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality...everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (part of the Godhead) is dittoing it.
Post ID: 716 Posted by: nitsuard, 2005-09-19 01:44:26
Excellent indeed! But I had a bad link to the original article and hope to read it b4 continuing my comments except to say that John 1 explains that Christ was GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible.
All of this information CLEARLY NEGATES what the homosexual behavior affirming "churches" claim. This is a perfect example of what the book of Jude predicts and warns will happen as we get closer and closer to the end times.
Note, especially, the following from Jude:
Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned as an example for judgment! Specifically, "going after strange flesh" is "set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Defiling the flesh and rejecting authority (especially of the Bible and Orthodox Christianity) is mentioned as a cause for the coming judgment. People, this is serious stuff!! This is not to be taken lightly! Notice, also, that those who "defile the flesh and reject authority are also guilty of "speaking evil of dignitarties." Isn't this exactly what is happening in the homosexual behavior affirming churches? They particularly bash Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, any and all ex-gay ministry as "evil"...claiming that they are "homophobic," "bigoted," "hateful," "anti-gay," and the list goes on!
Want to know what is genuinely anti-gay my friends? It's when people commit heresy and apostasy within a Christian denomination telling it's followers that they need not repent of a particular sin (in this case, homosexual behavior)! They are leading them (or, in some cases leaving them) directly into the grip of Satan's fallen world of deception!
Matthew 16:23 - But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Harsh words spoken to Peter by Jesus when he was guilty of "savouresting not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." This is what the homosexual agenda movement is doing within the churches!
We are to be salt and light in this world! Not agree with the offence of Satan and follow things of men right into Satan's lair!
Acts 26:18 - To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
This was Jesus, appearing to Paul and speaking to him! Note these prior verses (NKJV):
Acts 26:15 - And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Acts 26:18 - To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
This next post is one that clearly demonstrates what Jesus meant when he told the disciples that one of the signs of the times for his return would be "as in the days of Lot and Noah."
The Times of the Signs - The Days of Lot
Years ago, an internet aquaintance of mine named Jerry Cesario shared the following analysis regarding what Jesus meant when he said that it will be like "The Days of Lot" when the signs of the End Times would be near.
Unfortunately, I lost touch with Jerry, but before we parted ways he gave me permission to post his piece anywhere that I saw fit. (Note: Jerry! If you come across my blog please post a "hello" my friend!)
With all of the talk and analyses going on about the "why did this happen" and the speculation about the possible spiritual meaning of the destruction of New Orleans by hurricane Katrina, I thought I would post Jerry's well written piece. It is as legitimate today as it was when he first wrote it. At the end, I will post a link to my message board where I had originally posted it. The thread is a long one with over 65 replies and 1,114 individual IP address views! It continues to remain a popular read since it was first posted in 2003.
Please feel free to comment (respectfully, of course) on any part of the article that you wish to discuss.
Christine
*******
Volume II Issue #8 AUGUST, 2003
The Days Of Lot
"Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." Luke 17:28-30
While I am painfully aware that this month's commentary is not without controversy, I have struggled long and hard with how to present it. Unfortunately, there is just no other way than to just get it out. If you are offended by it, then good. I hope that you will search the Scriptures to see if these things are so (Acts 17:11). Now that I have your attention, let me just say that I am going to do my best to expose this darkness, but share the love and mercy of Christ as well. I am also going to use a lot of Scripture, as the Holy Spirit needs to be able to do His job through the understanding of His Word.
The story of Abraham and Lot should be familiar to everyone, however I will refresh your memory on the details. Lot was Abraham's nephew and they had left Ur together in search of the Promised Land. Because God had prospered them both with huge herds of cattle and flocks of sheep, the land began to be too small for their needs. At that point they agreed to separate and each find room for their herds, flocks and families. Abraham let Lot choose first and he chose the plain of Sodom to dwell in. As time would go on, it would become apparent that Lot had made a poor choice.
The Bible does not have a lot to say about Sodom other than that it was very wicked.
Genesis 18:20-21
" And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
We aren't told just what this grievous sin is until the next chapter...
Genesis 19...
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.
2 And he said, "Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way."
And they said, "No, but we will spend the night in the open square."
3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house.
5 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him,
7 and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!
8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof."
9 And they said, "Stand back!" Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them." So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.
10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.
11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.
As I said, the Bible doesn't say much about Sodom, but what it does say is loud and clear. There are days worth of study in this passage friends.
Why was Lot sitting at the gate? This signified his high position on the city council. Lot was tolerant of the rampant sin in the city.
What an apt picture of our day and age friends. This is our first clue to why Jesus pointed out the days of Lot as a model for the time of His return. However the second, and most glaring, description of Sodom is that it was filled with the sin of homosexuality. The men of Sodom wanted the 'men' that had come to Lot's house. In fact, they wanted them so bad that they tried to break down the door to get them, and, according to their own words, they wanted them just to have sex with them. They would not even accept the offer of Lot's daughters. Nope. They burned in lust for the men that had come to town.
So where does that leave us today?
Jesus likened the days of his return unto the days of Lot. What do we know about the days of Lot other than the rampant homosexuality that marked it? Isn't it odd that we do not know much more about it? I do not think so. In fact, I believe that it is exactly what Jesus was referring to.
The homosexual agenda has been pushing at us for decades with a marked increase in recent years. MTV has been a big factor in pushing it on shows like The Real World and Road Rules. Numerous TV shows, plays and even music stars have been instrumental in advance the homosexual lifestyle upon the world. However, it really seems that there has been a definitive increase in recent weeks. It is as if a line has been crossed, or a dam has been breached and the flood of homosexuality has begun to fill the world. I believe that the dam that broke was the Church.
The big news recently was the appointment of the so-called "Gay Bishop". Deluded statements like, "Once again Jesus has turned Good Friday into Easter Sunday" (quoted by Gene Robinson on the day of his appointment), and "We have come to the conclusion as a Church that homosexuality is not wrong. It is just another of the many ways that God expresses himself through man." (in a statement made days earlier regarding the so-called 'Heresy Meeting' days before the appointment by a Episcopalian Church leader).
I do not think that many folks realize the spiritual significance of this story. This should never have even come up for discussion. This was the last frontier for the homosexual agenda friends and now it has been reached! The moral implications not withstanding, the legal implications are going to be very grave indeed. The door is wide open for the homosexual lifestyle to permeate every aspect of society now.
You may have noticed that right on the heels of the bishop appointment were a flurry of TV shows on both cable networks and regular television (to use a phrase lightly). Many more are being advertised for the upcoming season as well. You see, that is the whole point. Now that Satan has officially sanctioned the homosexual lifestyle in the Church, what is holding back the same agenda in the world? Every church is now going to be expected, probably forced, to allow homosexuals to be placed in ministry positions. We can not only expect the flood to fill the obvious demonic controlled areas of society, but now the Church as well. Surely Jesus is coming for his Bride!
Is there anything wrong with homosexual sex? Many today actually believe that it is fine, if homosexuals just keep it to themselves. Well, what does the Word of God have to say about it?
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
It seems pretty clear what God thinks about the act of gay sex. But that was Old Testament some would say...
Romans 1 gives us an overall description of the fate of those who reject God and His salvation through Jesus Christ...
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting.
And later we read that homosexuals will not enter in to Heaven unless they repent of their homosexual sins and receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
I Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Again in I Timothy 1:10
10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.
I think the Bible is pretty clear, don't you?
The problem isn't with homosexuality exclusively. You can replace that sin with any from the list, it simply doesn't matter. Sin is sin is sin! That is the key to this whole thing. However, the elusion to the days of Lot by Jesus Christ, and the delusion that is spreading in the world today are unmistakably linked to the homosexual lifestyle. Thus it is the issue that needs to be dealt with today.
As followers of and believers in Jesus Christ we must be compassionate and seek every opportunity to extend the Gospel to all sinners. Homosexuals do not need to be reminded of their specific sins, but rather that their sins are forgiven through the blood of Jesus, should they want it and confess that Jesus is Lord.
For those who are watching the skies and looking for Christ's return, this impending flood is inching oh so much closer. The great rescuing of the Church is surely nigh. Keep the faith saints, and do not bend on the essentials of the faith. The degree of sin being displayed may be perceived as worse than any other, but it is still just sin. We were all guilty before we received the grace of God. Don't forget that God dearly loves the sinner and does not have any joy in the death of the wicked. He loves the homosexual just as much as any other, so much that he sent his Son to die for them too...
Written by Jerry Cesario
Times of the Signs: The Days of Lot Message Board Post and Comments.
Deb sure is being judgmental, intolerant and hateful towards us - what's up with that?
I thought God is all about love?
Thank you Christine for taking the time to write all of that and giving me that information.
Do you see the difference between your message,.....and Dani's message?
Your message was full of concern and love.
Dani's message? She's constantly angry.
I will respond to you better tomorrow or the next day. I just want to thank you right now for your "loving" message. It really gave me something to think about.
With Dani? She makes me want to worship the devil with her approach---seriously! Not a soldier of God.
God bless Christine!
Love,
Deb
Okay, from the top:
It’s a tired argument because when it keeps knocking on your door, you fail to answer it. Maybe if you did, it would be satisfied and go away.
You’re talking about a godly rule that is supposed to apply always and everywhere…which means that it also has to apply here and now. God doesn’t like homosexuality. He also doesn’t like divorce, or people eating shrimp (or, at least, Hebrews eating shrimp), or shaved faces. Yet Christians divorce as often as nonbelievers do, and no Christer terrorist has yet bombed a Red Lobster©.
I have read through the comments and links here, and it’s quite easy to see why dani disagrees with Deb. As for YOU, don’t EVER say “that’s what God taught” you about homosexual behavior. God never told you that. Other people taught you that. People who claimed they knew what goes on in the mind of God told you that. Since your own Bible claims that God is unknowable, you have been misinformed, and worse, you’re perpetuating the error.
Christine, if you’re so upset to have me here and on your message board, why did you invite me here? For over a year, you waxed about the wonders of blogging, and especially about your own blog. I didn’t come to AH under false colors. You knew what I was from the get-go. So, why did you ask me here? Is this place getting to be as dull as TalkWisdom, and you want me to spice things up? (No, you wouldn’t do THAT.) Or do you simply want to dance in a bigger room?
Yes, yes, I know: we all deserve the death penalty. And we’ll all get it, too. No one has ever provided evidence of this ‘spirit’ thing; where in the body it resides, whether it’s affected by our physical bodies, what it’s made of, and so on. When I was a child, I used to wonder—good people go to heaven, and people to hell—but what about insane people? It’s not their fault they’re crazy, I said. My mother ignored the question, my sisters said “Hush”, and my pastor said nothing. I’d bet you don’t have an answer either. But I digress.
Religion tells its followers, ”You’re FILTH! You’re SCUM!! Every one of you deserves to die, AND YOU WILL!! But I love you, and have left you a way out. Just do this…” A religion that treats its followers like dirt creates people who treat everyone outside that religion like dirt. Don’t take my word for it—look at the history books.
I never said I wanted nothing to do with Christian believers—only their belief. I do not share it (and will not pretend to), and I will not have it forced on me (what was wrong with ”e pluribus unum", anyway?).
If you’ll reread my post, I said nothing about ‘unpleasant’. (Bit sensitive, are we?) I said “MORE pleasant”. We’ve never met, yet I conclude you’re a pleasant person—until certain words are mentioned and your God-Meter spikes. You may think a lot like Fred Phelps, but I’m sure you’re much more pleasant than he.
In any case, the people I spent this day with were veterans—with whom I have a great deal in common. We talked about our ‘old friends’, and about the new ones coming out of this war. We remembered our absent friends; those who gave their lives, and unlike your hero, didn’t come back from the dead. Jesus was only a god in a human body; death to him was like a snake shedding its skin. For these other guys, now lying in places like Arlington and Punchbowl, it was…different.
If Deb and dani’s conversation is happening between them only, it’s none of my business—or yours. But it’s happening here, online, so now it’s my business too. By all means, point out errors in Deb’s belief, and then try to explain why, when reading the very same words you did, she came up with a different result. If two people can do that with the evidence before them, one must conclude that the evidence isn’t sufficiently solid. Making an appeal to the supernatural won't make it any more solid.
That, of course, is why there are so very many “Christian” sects out there. All of them can’t be right…and, very likely, all of them are wrong.
Okay. My response comes in a story form. Click here to see how my mind works and what I believe to be true. Hoping you'll understand the underlying meaning of it all.
Thanks for communicating with me and showing love in your message!
Love to you,
Deb
I have no problem with what people choose to believe or not believe. My biggest problem with Dani is her inconsistancy in her "literal" interpretation of the Bible. She simply comes across as a homophobe.
She follows the word of Bob Enyart...and by her literal interpretation of the bible that provides the inconsistancy.
Spewing hate in the name of religion is simply wrong.
She's never been able to adequately answer for his continual sinning and just concentrates her hate in one area.
She is a fraud and a hypocrite.
everybody,
deb has been my friend, all she has told me to do is follow my heart and listen for God, so don't put words in her mouth. she is a really nice lady and I appriciate her a great deal for actually paying attention to a teen which some adults can't. deb isn't trying to turn me evil or whatever you think, she's trying to be my friend and i want to be friends with her. she's wise, smart, and funny. she also is a kick-a$$ blogger!!! pardon my language... but she is. the first post i read wasn't about lezbians, it was about her mom's cooking :) "Matters of the Heart". She's also someone with other interesting lessons and stories.
i like dani too though, don't get me wrong. she's nice and is really bible-smart and i like her advice on where i should start in the bible and what parts are easist to read.
i skimmed through the comments and somethings you guys are saying are kinda clashing and not-so-nice, but i can understand that. perhaps you just shouldn't talk.... well, i'm not gonna tell you what to do or how to feel so i'm gonna shut up now. *shutting up*
**HUGS DEB**
**HUGSDANI*
LUV
~taylor
p.s. I like you're post christine :)
What continues to bounce around in my brain is the following:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."
--Matthew 22:37-40
It occurs to me that Jesus was alluding to the fact that for many years, Jews would bicker over which sins were worse than other sins. Sort of reminds me what I see from both Dani and ~Deb, two Christian women who spend time daily, meditating, reading, and learning from the same book – the Bible.
I knew an extremely bright person in college. He learned Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek in college, mostly so he could read copies of the original texts and discern their meaning for himself. At the time, I thought he was fairly egocentric, believing he could upturn truths that have been studied by scholars for millennia. I have read the Leviticus passage, and I am puzzled as to why some focus on this passage. The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts. By using the word "homosexuality," the English translation appears to condemn lesbian activity as well. The latter behavior is definitely not mentioned in the original Hebrew text of this passage. In fact, lesbian behavior is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures. So you are on shaky ground to start with.
I am not a lesbian – but that does not make me without sin. I committed some horrible sins against God and my husband, sins which I am still mending. I really enjoyed reading your entry for this day – and I have also changed my views concerning confession. Confession used to be a place I would list my digressions, but in the past few years it has been a place where I heal myself and move more towards God.
Leviticus mentions two types of sins: (1) Moral sin and (2) Ceremonial uncleanliness. The male anal sex sin is a moral sin, whereas eating shellfish is an example of ceremonial uncleanliness. Incidentally, one type of sin, at the time, was not necessarily less severe than the other type. Some ceremonial uncleanliness sins actually carried the death penalty. I am puzzled why people don't rally against shellfish with as much fervor than they rally against lesbian sex.
It is obvious that ~Deb, Dani and you are very faithful women. I just wonder if all of this energy is necessarily good.
Deb,
I am so glad that you saw my post as a loving message. Some people on the opposite side of this issue would not ever dare to admit that. They see any message that is contrary to their own mantra as evil, bigoted, homophobic, anti-gay etc. If you read this post, you will notice that some typically label people like me as a "pitbull of the culture war." Usually, it is people who don't know Christ and/or totally dismiss what the Bible says that feel that way. I'm glad to see that you aren't willing to do that. It says a lot.
I have some questions for you, though. Since you saw the post as loving, I must ask if you now believe what the Bible says (and Jesus, as a member of the Trinity of God who carried along the writers to record His Word) regarding homosexual behavior? You did mention that the post gave you a lot to think about.
I did read your post at your blogspot. You are a good writer! I was hooked while reading through that intense story you shared!
What I got out of your story (besides the obvious message that you think giving up your lesbian lover would not be desirable) is that you have a fear of what following fellow Christian Dani's biblical message would mean for you and your partner. Dani and I may have slightly different approaches, but we are basically agreeing with God and His Word on this issue. I must confess that I have not always been loving in my approach. Sometimes I let the political actions and vitriole of the gay activists [note: not all people who self-identify as gay or lesbian]get to me and it makes me angry. Then, I remember who is really behind such deception.
There is so much that I'd like to share with you. Early this morning, I was laying in bed half awake and I just know that the Holy Spirit was influencing my thoughts with words to share with you.
One of my first thoughts was the reality that Dani, (nor I or any other Christian believer) can make you leave your lover. It is only by conviction through the Holy Spirit that you might choose to do that.
I have heard of many cases where after being born again in Jesus Christ, former gay men and former lesbian women have left their such behavior and identity behind, and have led either completely changed heterosexual lives or lives of celibacy.
On a show called, "Faith Under Fire" host Lee Strobel interviewed two gay men who both gave their lives over to Jesus Christ and ceased their sexual behavior with each other. They still live together, but have vowed to remain celibate in order to put their love and devotion for Christ above their former physical desires. They take the request of Jesus seriously when he said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
What are those commandments that they formerly were not keeping?
It was a combination of sexual lust, adultery and idolatry. Some people may read this and say that's crazy! Who can give up sex for the rest of their lives? Apparently, these men felt that such a sacrifice was minimal compared to Christ's sacrificial death on the cross for their sins.
Perhaps they took this verse to heart: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
These men can still love one another but it turned into a brotherly, agape type of love; not sexual.
In another case, two formerly gay men met two formerly lesbian women and married. For some, any contact with a former lover could cause them to fall back into a sinful sexual relationship, so they need to cut off all contact permanently.
There are probably hundreds of people who have managed to turn from their former sinful sexual behaviors in dozens of ways. I include heterosexuals in this acclamation too! The rampant promiscuity, pornography, adultery, internet predators who go after sex with children (both gay and straight sexual encounters) is just as sinful!!
But as I stated previously, society today may appear to be "picking on" the gay agenda and seem to be turning a blind eye to other sexual deviancy problems. But the difference is that schools and churches are not openly trying to force people into total and unequivocal acceptance of those behaviors. Schools teaching kids that homosexuality is normal, healthy, natural and the same as heterosexual sex ignore what parents desire to teach their children. Churches that profess that homosexual behavior does not violate God's moral laws are, in fact, negating what God's Word expressly prohibits and condemns in the Bible.
The current, prominent trend today is not tolerance of homosexuality, but complete and utter acceptance without any regard for social, moral or religious beliefs that differ.
This is why I have become so vocal on this issue. And, if people like GMpilot want to lump me in with the Fred Phelps family, then so be it.
Speaking of Phelps, I did a previous post that included a bit about one of his daughters who appeared on the Fox News channel. I pointed out that one of the telling signs that they are in a cult is that they do not talk about the fact that homosexuals can confess, repent and be saved from their former sin. When the fact of repentance, forgiveness, and salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ at the cross is left out, you can be sure that they are following a false doctrine.
Didn't mean to get so far off topic. Getting back to your posts.
Previously, you shared this:
Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, “Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,” when you can’t see past the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. ~Matthew 7:5
Here is the NKJV of Matthew 7:1-5
Do Not Judge
(see also Luke 6:37-42)
7"Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Notice that Jesus mentioned that by removing "the plank from your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Jesus did not mean for this verse to say we are never to judge anything or anyone. We make judgments all the time. Without that, there would be chaos.
Pastor Chuck Smith has a great commentary on these verses:
"The judgment that is prohibited is judging the person rather than the action (1 Corinthians 13). When a scriptural principle has been violated, we can acknowledge the fact of the sin without condemning the person (1 Corinthians 2:2). Every Christian will stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12; 1 Corinthians 11:28; 2 Corinthians 5:10). The way we judge others sets the standard for the way we'll be judged. We're to restore those who fall into sin with meekness, knowing our own frailty (Galatians 6:1; Romans 2:1; Luke 12:2-7; James 3:1).
v. 3-5 We have a 2-by-4 in our own eyes, but judge our brother for the sliver in his eye. We're so ready to condemn others but we excuse our own sins. Only God is qualified to judge men, because He alone can see into men's hearts and knows their motivations (Romans 2:2). Our judgment is perverted by our prejudices (the beam in our eyes) that make others' sins look so much worse than our own.
v. 6 Though we're not to judge people, we're to discriminate between those who have a reverence and appreciation for spiritual things and those who do not. We're to protect the holy truths God has given to us from unnecessary exposure to ridicule and blasphemy (Jeremiah 15:19). It's also important to maintain discipline in the Church by separating the wolves from the sheep. Those who spread heresy need to be weeded out so that the damage they would do is minimized. There are people who sit in church services and hear only what they want to
hear. They reject the things that convict them of their sins and misuse the teachings of grace as an excuse to go on sinning. In our personal witnessing we should be guided by the Holy Spirit to discern between those people who are ready to hear what we have to share and those who will only reject and ridicule it. Men who are carnally-minded aren't able to understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14-15)."
Deb said: "Of course there are repercussions for not loving God, and not accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. That I believe. The worst sin of all that’s listed in the bible is not loving God with all your heart, and not loving your neighbor."
Actually, there is an unpardonable sin, and that is rejection of the Holy Spirit of God.
Here are just a few of the many verses that allude to this fact:
Romans 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Deb said: "Nowhere does it say that it is wrong for two people of the same gender to ‘love’ one another."
Love for the same gender and having sex with the same gender are two totally different things. As you read in my post, God's Word specifically prohibits same gender sexual behavior. It is written in both the Old and New Testaments. People who claim to belong to God are to set themselves apart from the sexual sins that pagans engage in.
God's Word never changes, but, unfortunately, people's opinions about it do. The idea that a group called "The Jesus Seminar" would vote about the authenticity of what Jesus said as recorded by the apostles and prophets by dropping little beads into a jar is absurd! But it happened! They wanted to mold Jesus and His Word into what they deemed was true rather than what has been true for thousands of years! Similarly, the gay behavior affirming churches want to re-write the Bible to exclude the verses that condemn homosexual behavior. Some have gone so far as to claim that Jesus Himself was homosexual. Total absurdity!
Well, this is getting very long so I probably should stop here. Perhaps I can come back and finish later.
I hope that we can keep the dialogue going. When people are on polar opposites of an issue, it can be hard not to get angry and/or upset about what is being shared. My goal here is not to hurt, harm, disparage or anger. It is to declare the truth of God's Word. As my original post says: Sometimes the truth will hurt us, first. I know that it did for me. Acknowledging the truth about my own sin wasn't comfortable. Putting to death that old self was hard and humbling...but once I did, the joy of reconciliation with God through Christ is a joyous state of being! I wouldn't go back to the way I once was for anything!
God bless you Deb!
In Christ,
Christine
Just wanted to say hi to all who have posted in this thread. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring your posts! It's been a busy day and it took me hours to complete my post to Deb!
Dani (Deb too!) - We can always to go back to the one unifying factor of all Christians...that "we are to preach and teach Jesus Christ and Him crucified." All other arguments and debates aside, I think all Christians can agree on that.
Mike - I presume that you are not a Christian since you said, "I have no problem with what people choose to believe or not believe." However, you do appear to have a problem with what Dani believes or you would not have said what you said. I am not familiar with Enyart, but Dani doesn't need to "adequately answer for his continual sinning." What you perceive as "hate" when you said, "and just concentrates her hate in one area" is actually concern for the souls of those who might get turned away from the true gospel of Christ through heresy and apostasy (in this particular case...the heresy of sharing with others that homosexual behavior is not sin.) If you are not a believer in Christ, then you are not under such an admonition. You can go on in your pagan ways; so to speak. But it is a totally different situation when a person who professes to be Christian and through her own interpretation of God's Word, makes claims that are unbiblical.
You could take any sin and spin it so that it is not perceived as sin anymore. Anyone could do that. The trouble is, as Christians, we answer to a Higher Authority than our own human autonomy. It is for that reason that Dani legitimately questions Deb's stance on the homosexual issue. Does this help in your own understanding of why their debate continues?
Taylor - Thanks for your kind words about my post! You seem like a very sweet young lady who just wants everyone to just get along! That is an admirable virtue. Perhaps you can be like a "blogging moderator" between us bickering adults! heh heh...J/K.
I second Dani's joy to the fact that you are now reading the Bible!
The Bible is God's Word to all mankind. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.
2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalms 12:6; 119:105, 160; Proverbs 30:5
I have been studying the Bible for over 18 years now. I have had a few people ask me, "you've been studying that thing for all those years...don't you know it yet?" That is what is so phenomenal about God's Word...we will never truly arrived at knowing it all! But what is revealed about Jesus Christ will change your life forever...I guarantee it!
I hope you will stop by often and if I can ever help answer any question for you, I will try to do my best. No question is too big or too small and there is no such thing as a "dumb" question! If I don't have an answer, I know that the Bible will provide it and I will research and get such an answer for you. God bless you!
Leesa - Thank you for stopping by and sharing what you did. I can agree with some of it. However, Scripture most certainly prohibits lesbian sex.
Romans 1:26-27 informs us that sexual immorality and self-worship brings great consequence to those involved: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of a woman, burned in their lust toward one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."
These New Testament passages references the perversion of homosexuality – and affirms that God designed the sexual relationship for biblical, heterosexual marriage.
I think that the dialogue between all of us here is very valuable!
Gotta run...more later...
Thank you Christine! I have read all of this and will respond tomorrow morning! This was really thought out and spoken out of respect. I appreciate that.
Will write more tomorrow!
Love,
Deb
Your presumption would be wrong. Dani hones in on one sin...picking out Deb to chastise but gives Bob Enyart a pass on sinning.
Some examples (by Dani's literal interpretation of the bible, btw):
1) Her preacher is twice divorced and wishes there were laws on the books for the death penalty on adultery. She says he's repented but how do you repent for adultery when you're remarried and the ex is alive.
2) He has printed out and worn/sold t shirts with the slogan "Homo's make me sick." How christian is that?
3) He is a convicted child abuser.
4) He played the song "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen as names of AIDS victims scrolled by on a tv set. Again, the act of a christian huh?
And Dani's response to this:
What's the big deal...Gay people get what's coming to them.
Yeah...she's a real christian alright.
Spewing hate in the name of religion doesn't make one a christian. It makes for a fraud and a hypocrite.
Hi Christine,
I wanted to comment back in the morning after I had my coffee so I’m a little awake here. I hopped on last night before going to sleep (which is such a bad idea!!!) but I wanted to let you know that I read every single word you wrote. Thank you for taking the time out to do that.
I just wanted to point out things that I found questionable in the scripture you put out there, and then maybe I can ask you questions at the end that you can answer for me. I’m really curious to know what your thoughts are…
For example, this scripture:
Romans 1:26-27 informs us that sexual immorality and self-worship brings great consequence to those involved: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of a woman, burned in their lust toward one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."
I’m going to break it down. {Sexual immorality} to me stands for promiscuous behavior. {Self-worship} to me stands for selfish and one who is conceited. I am far from these two descriptions…
{Vile affections} morally reprehensible; "would do something as despicable as murder"; "ugly crimes"; "the vile development of slavery appalled them" [syn: despicable, ugly, unworthy] 2: thoroughly unpleasant; "filthy (or foul or nasty or vile) weather we're having" [syn: filthy, foul, nasty] 3: causing or able to cause nausea; "a nauseating smell"; "nauseous offal"; "a sickening stench" [syn: nauseating, nauseous, noisome, loathsome, offensive, sickening]
Do you really think that my relationship with my partner is ‘vile’? And please, do not say God thinks my relationship with my partner is vile, because we are not promiscuous and having sex with anyone and everyone. It’s different. We are monogamous. We do not sleep around. We are not despicable, we are not ugly, we are not unworthy, foul, nasty or sickening as the word “vile” means.
{For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of a woman, burned in their lust toward one another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."}
These were days of the Romans where they engaged in orgies and promiscuity. They were bored with men, men were bored with women, and they experimented and “lusted” after one another.
My partner and I do not “lust” after one another. We “love” one another. There is so much to our relationship that is inconceivable to radical Christians, and those who oppose homosexuality. We do not “burn in lust toward one another”… You are explaining a period of time in which they went a bit off the track and decided to try another route to their sexuality. And yes, it’s still being done today in many various forms, bath houses and other miscellaneous ‘parties’. It’s still there—and I totally understand why you would think that homosexuality is wrong just from that one scripture, but read it carefully. It does not state that Jesus ever said that “loving” one another as in unconditional love---NOT lust was wrong.
I know what you mean, but you have to understand that the form of love that some gay and lesbians have are the type that you & your husband have; the type that Dani & her husband have. It’s the same type of love that bonds together a couple in union—not a couple burning in lust for one another. That’s different.
As far as Leviticus goes, that doesn’t apply to me, you or any other Christian out there. That law went out a long time ago when Jesus stepped foot on this earth. That law is the same as eating shellfish. That’s what “I believe” to be true.
I appreciate you explaining to me your beliefs. There was a time when I was in my church…it was an Assembly of God. The pastor knew that my partner and I were gay and decided to place us in the gay & lesbian ministries. We went, and thought it would be fun to learn more about what they thought about homosexuality. These two ladies in their late 50’s were there. They have been together for over 25 yrs. They still lived together, but they were celibate. So we went out to brunch with them after service, so they could speak to us on different grounds.
Anyway, they started taking out the bible and pointing out where it says that homosexuality was wrong. Then I would pull out my mighty ‘word’ and show them scriptures that contradict it. They looked confused and puzzled at my responses and I can TELL they were questioning their own beliefs.
So the next Sunday during service, they had a special “Gay Sunday”---dedicated to us where people have to go up and tell their testimony of how they are not an ex-homosexual. Great. I sat there with my arms crossed and watched the pastor as he sat there with this awful smirk on his face. Yeah, he irritated me a bit. (ha)
Anyway, as soon as the woman (who was with her partner of 25 yrs) got up to talk, she started flipping her big ole bible to find her safety passages that she thought were so ‘real’ and so true to her situation. I pointed out the flaws in them and how they demonstrated that this was from another time --- the way I broke it down for you.
She broke out in tears in front of everyone. She kept saying, “I love Karen! I love her! I love her!” and sobbed as she tried to go on with her story. She couldn’t. She was depressed, and has been depressed ever since the pastor told her that what she was doing was wrong. He basically dictated her life and she was miserable for the ten years that she “tried” remaining celibate. Come to find out there were a whole lotta’ backsliding going on at the home lately, and she was still “in love” with her partner.
She kept crying and I had this huge taco in my throat. I ended up crying with her. I had to go up to her afterwards at fellowship and give her my support. She knew I wasn’t repentant of my sin, because I don’t think my relationship is a sin. Her tears were real. Her feelings were real. Her tears were not of lust. Her love for the Lord was evident.
This is what makes me sad, Christine. To see people condemning others when there is nothing true in black and white that states that Jesus told people not to love one another even if they are of the same sex. Yes—burn in lust for one another even if you are straight is a sin! But loving someone unconditionally is totally different.
In your honest opinion Christine, put aside the good word for one moment and listen…(or read) ….
Do you think people like Maddie and myself are bad people?
Do you feel that we’re out to harm anybody else?
Do you feel that we’re endangering the lives of others?
Do you think that our love is a perversion? Do you think it’s just as bad as incest?
Do you feel that people have a right to harm us physically?
And, do you believe that God doesn’t listen to us? That there is no way possible we can have a personal relationship with Him?
If I were to tell you every single spiritual encounter I had with “JESUS” Himself, you would either be shocked beyond your belief, OR you would simply chuck it up to one of my psychotic moments. Dan loves to keep adding, “neurotic Christian lesbian”, yes I am. And yes I do poke fun at my disorders, my OCD, my anxiety and manic phases, but that’s all part of being human. I’m a functional woman who loves Christ with all her heart and soul. He’s first, and always will be. His love is just so amazing, and I talk with Him everyday.
In my book (NOT PLUGGING) but I refer to all the spiritual encounters I have had with Jesus. In one of the chapters, I explain how this happened with my partner and she witnessed this herself on two occasions. She SAW what I SAW… And no, we weren’t doing LDS or any other mind altering drugs.
This is why I am so confident that He accepts me. That’s why I am very adamant about my stance on why I’m “okay” as a Christian, and that I’m not slapping God in the face as some would say, by claiming Jesus as my Savior.
He is my Savior! Thank GOD!
Thank you Christine. You have pointed out MORE evidence of what you find to be true more than anybody else did. You had much more proof and discernment where I can see “why” you believe what you do. No one else had the same argument as you did. I commend you on that. You certainly did your research. I’ve been studying the bible for 15 yrs myself. And I’m amazed how these ‘so called Christians’ are so clueless when it comes to certain things. YOU----are very very intelligent and I can see you have God inside of you because of your approach towards another Christian.
God sees YOUR heart. You’re a complete angel in my eyes. You’re probably blessed with tons of friends and many family members who love you, right? I can’t see it any other way!
“I” love you Christine! Because you exude love to others.
God bless!
Hi Deb,
You sure know how to make a grown woman cry! You are probably the first person from the lesbian persuasion to ever say that you love me or that I exude love to others. Usually it is only a hand full of dear Christian friends who know the real me(including those who have successfully left homosexuality behind) who would ever even consider saying kind things like that to me. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart for saying that!
I would like to take the proper amount of time to respond to your post. You make some excellent points. You shared some heart aching experiences. You also asked some heart wrenching (and searching) questions. I hope to get back to you asap. But I just wanted to tell you that you are the first gay person who has been willing to recognize or even acknowledge that my true motives are meant for good and for the purpose of sharing Christ with people from all walks of life.
Love to you in Christ,
Christine
Deb,
With a good night's sleep, coffee in hand, and many thoughts and Scriptures running through my head, I am now ready to tackle your post.
This may be a two-part comment. I'm using my husband's computer so that I can keep our puggle pup entertained while I type. When he awakes, then I will change computers.
I plan to answer in a more conversational way with links to former blogposts that will back up and/or give more detail to what I am sharing. The one request that you had when you said:
"In your honest opinion Christine, put aside the good word for one moment and listen…(or read) …. "
is a difficult one to abide by for the simple reason that I live by Christ's "good word," the Bible, and do not wish to "put it aside" ...not even for just one moment. However, I can share personal feelings about certain matters when appropriate to do so.
Ah! The husband is awake! Switching computers...
As a born-again Christian, my life now belongs to Jesus Christ. You can visit this webpage to better understand what that means, what I believe is necessary to receive Christ as Lord and Savior, and the Biblical references that back up such claims.
Have you been born again Deb? Has Maddie?
On to the rest of your post.
I can agree with most of what you said about Romans 1:26,27. However, it is not our opinions that count regarding what is deemed immoral...it is God's Word that instructs us. There were several forms of sexuality that you did not include as immoral that God's Word lists as such. Promiscuity is one, but so is fornication. Just because many people are doing it anyway doesn't make it moral in God's eyes.
Self-worship includes what you mentioned, but it also means much more. The link I gave above touches on this subject. Here's the portion:
Picture in your mind two circles with a throne in the middle which represent two kinds of lives:
The self-directed life has "self" on the throne, Christ is outside the life and interests are directed by self, often resulting in discord and frustration.
The Christ-directed life has Christ in the center of the life and on the throne. Self is yielding to Christ (at the foot of the cross). Interests are directed by Christ, resulting in harmony with God's plan.
Which circle best represents your life?
Which circle would you like to have represent your life?
As Christians, we all must ask ourselves those important questions.
Self-worship is a form of idolatry. God instructs us to love Him first, with all of our heart, mind, soul, and body.
There are Scripture verses that tell us that our bodies are "no longer our own" but belong to Christ.
Why?
Because after being born again in Christ, it has become a "temple of the Holy Spirit" who indwells all born-again believers.
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Deb asks: "Do you really think that my relationship with my partner is ‘vile’? And please, do not say God thinks my relationship with my partner is vile, because we are not promiscuous and having sex with anyone and everyone. It’s different. We are monogamous. We do not sleep around. We are not despicable, we are not ugly, we are not unworthy, foul, nasty or sickening as the word “vile” means."
Again, what is considered vile to you or I is not even the point, Deb. As the verse clearly points out, "For even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:" What God considers vile IS the point. He is holy and righteous. His Holiness and Righteousness far surpasses anything that we could ever imagine! Because our minds, hearts, and bodies are marred and corrupted by sin, in such a state as that we couldn't even stand before Him without our hearts failing!
A holy and righteous God must also judge sin. Those who reject Christ's offer of salvation and experience the Great Tribulation in the End Times will want the rocks to fall on them and crush them rather than face God and the judgment that has been afforded to Christ (the Lamb)at his second coming.
Revelation 6:12-17
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and *behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the *moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, *the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Perhaps I'm sharing more than I need to at this point, but I wanted to demonstrate that the only way to escape judgment for our own sins that are on each of our souls is to accept Jesus Christ's sacrificial death in place of what would have been ours.
Isaiah tells us that even as believers and followers of God, "all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." How humbling is this verse?
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
If it wasn't for Christ, all of our iniquities would take us away. But look at the joy of salvation in this next verse!
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Deb said: "It does not state that Jesus ever said that “loving” one another as in unconditional love---NOT lust was wrong."
The type of love that Jesus refers to is not carnal. It is not sexual. Sex is a part of love which is supposed to be between one man and one woman for life in the form of marriage. But man's sin has caused sexual immorality in many forms to ruin God's original created order in this respect. You have already read the comments I previously posted about this. I am not claiming that homosexual behavior and lusts are more sinful or less sinful than heterosexual behavior and lusts that are contrary to God's Word regarding proper sexual relations. However, it is the issue of our time and homosexuality has permeated every aspect of our culture today; including in our public schools and some church denominations. I don't see fornication, pornography, prostitution, adultery etc. being promoted that way. They are still recognized by most Christians as sins. But the confusion over homosexual behavior is polluting our children's minds in school and tearing our churches apart. Have you ever asked yourself, "why is that?" It has to do with deception and the father of all lies and deception, Satan himself. His methods are not always direct. They are often subtle and can include some half-truths. Statements such as, "Did God really say you would die?" are meant to place doubt on God's goodness and truth. Satan's two best weapons include getting people to believe he doesn't really exist and getting people to doubt God's goodness and His Word, the Bible.
Deb said: "As far as Leviticus goes, that doesn’t apply to me, you or any other Christian out there. That law went out a long time ago when Jesus stepped foot on this earth. That law is the same as eating shellfish. That’s what “I believe” to be true."
But Jesus Himself has told us that he "hasn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Also recognize that he told us this:
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
I have already shared the verse in a previous comment that state we are not to continue in willful unrepentant sin. This is where we get the saying, "God forbid." Sin is to avoided by those who love the Lord! We don't want to trample upon the grace afforded us through Christ's sacrifice at the cross. Christ paid much to high a price for us to even want to do that!
Yes. We all backslide occasionally because we still have free will to follow after the Spirit or after the flesh. As Christians, we still sin and need to confess what I call, "the daily dirties." But the unrepented sins (and/or the refusal to acknowledge any particular sin that the Bible clearly says is sin) and continued, willful participation could be an indication that the Christian does not have the Holy Spirit indwelled in their soul. The Bible says that God has "given them over" to such sinful practices. That's a terrible place to be, IMHO.
Instead, I want to know that I have been washed and cleansed from all sin. My sin is as far as the east is from the west! My sin has been cast into the depths of the sea!
Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
I am going to save an analysis of the two women who were backsliding in their sexual relationship for last. First, I will answer your questions (finally...huh?)
Deb: Do you think people like Maddie and myself are bad people?
I don't really know either of you personally, but from what I have read through your postings we could probably get along nicely and even develop a friendship! In my experiences with gay and lesbian people, most are wonderful, compassionate, open, creative, giving and loving people who are fun to be around! However, there are gay activists who I couldn't possibly place in the same category, though.
Deb: "Do you feel that we’re out to harm anybody else?"
No. Not intentionally at least. But I do fear that the gay Christian movement in the churches today is dangerously dividing the unity of Christian believers. I see it as an example of what is described in the book of Jude as heresy which leads to apostasy.
Deb: "Do you feel that we’re endangering the lives of others?"
I can't know that for sure, but your loving heart shows through in your posts here so again, I would say that if you are, then it is unintentional on your part. The main concern I have about the "endangering issue" is stated in my last answer.
Deb: "Do you think that our love is a perversion? Do you think it’s just as bad as incest?"
I don't see your love as a perversion. But the fact that God's Word calls sexual relations between two persons of the same sex as perversion cannot be denied. All sin is sin in God's eyes and His judgment about the severity of each in eternity is what will count in the end. Personally, I hate to hear when someone harms a child through sexual abuse of any kind; whether it be incest, pedophilia, sexual predators (have you seen that series, "To catch a predator" on MSNBC? What an eye opener! It's on tonight btw). No wonder Jesus expressed such a harsh penalty:
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Deb: "Do you feel that people have a right to harm us physically?"
No! Of course not! In fact, I was extremely angry that an illegal alien male who found out that the sexual partner he picked up was not a female killed the transvestite (hope I'm using the correct word) and got off lightly through a defense excuse that should be stricken from the books...that being the "gay panic" defense. Maybe the man deserved a punch in the nose for deceiving the guy but he had no excuse to kill him!
I am against "hate crime" legislation though because it can be severely abused. I was shocked to find out that the gay community would not include ex-gay persons under such legislation. What's up with that??
Deb: "And, do you believe that God doesn’t listen to us? That there is no way possible we can have a personal relationship with Him?"
I can't really answer that for it is between you, Maddie and God. Not all Christians may agree with what I will say next. But I do believe that the Holy Spirit "knocks on the door of the hearts" of those who call themselves Christian, but haven't completely committed themselves over to Jesus yet. So, (if you are not born again...but please note that I am not claiming that you aren't born again; just leaving it out there as a possibility that's all) then He could definitely be speaking to you from outside. It may have been a divine appointment for us to meet on this blog and have our current conversation.
When Jesus is genuinely made Savior and Lord in a person's life, it is then that the Holy Spirit indwells them. Jesus said that we must be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. I take His word seriously.
About the woman who went through all the turmoil between being celibate and acting upon her sexual tendencies towards the woman she loves.
I believe that once a person is born again, they are forever saved. In my post Once Saved, Always Saved I discuss this in detail. Although it is about an incident involving a Christian believer whose last act on earth was suicide, it could be applied to any "backsliding" believer (IMHO).
The difference that I see between that woman at your church and you is that she once faced the fact and admitted that her homosexual behavior was sinful in God's eyes according to His Word, the Bible. Her efforts to remain celibate probably earned her a "well done good and faithful servant." If she is truly repentant, is born again and has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in her heart then she is Christ's forever! No one can "snatch her out of His hands!" However, if she never repented and doesn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in her heart then she is "none of His."
There is Freedom from Enslavement of sin. God, in His timing, works for good in those that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
I pray that all of this has been of help to you Deb. As a fellow Christian who obviously holds to a different cultural worldview, please know that I have only your best interests at heart.
Thanks again for you very kind words to me. They were so appreciated! God bless you and Maddie!
Love in Christ,
Christine
Thank you Christine. To answer your question, I have repented in regards to being homosexual when I was 23 yrs old, living in our new condo while attending the Assembly of God. I remained celibate and I was serious about it. Maddie was a bit on edge and chewing on ice, but what are ya gonna do? The Lord comes first. So I went on being celibate and attending services along with meetings with the gay and lesbian ministries to get me out of that lifestyle. They reiterated the fact that I may remain in the living situation, however there are more chances for backsliding.
Anyway, through spiritual experiences and through prayer, I spoke to God upon this. My ‘experiences’ which led me to believe that homosexuality isn’t wrong if it’s between two people who genuinely love one another unconditionally---not for lust. That was the reason why I still believe that I’m a born again Christian, but with more clarity…if that makes sense. I know you will disagree with that, but that’s my beliefs.
Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me, and it’s so encouraging to know someone who can tell their faith, yet not be so aggressive and mean about it.
Christine, you’ve really helped me through sharing your stories, scriptures and trying to help me understand. You’ve done more than you know. In fact, I’m studying the bible more because of you.
Thank you.
Hi Christine - I have been following this discussion with great admiration at the wisdom you share. (I was even looking forward to seeing what you will post next). Thanks for standing up for God's Truth.
Deb should consider herself blessed to have a woman like you invest in her life in such a caring way. She could learn a great deal of wisdom from you...we all could.
A lot of hostility has taken place between Deb and I over the past several months, primarily brought on by outside influences, and it's good to have a fresh voice of Godly wisdom on the scene.
I have nothing but love and compassion for Deb, otherwise I wouldn't have devoted so much time to her. I would like nothing more than to be friends with her and have cocktails together, but my conscience just won't allow for it. If she were just a lesbian I wouldn't care so much, but it's the fact that she also professes Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior that makes my heart grieve with sickness and causes me to be angry that she would mock God like that.
I realize that Deb may have "good" intentions on the surface, but blatantly ignoring Scripture in exchange for her personal happiness and feelings is not characteristic of a follower of Christ. Sorry, but I can no longer stomach the hypocrisy in Deb's life.
As the Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 - “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.”
Keep up the good work Christine! God will convict Deb's heart in His timing. I have enjoyed reading your comments and learned from your wisdom talk.
Sincerly In Christ ~
Dani
BTW - I also added this post along my sidebar under "See Who's Talking About Me..."
I read this post over, and saw some points I agreed with, and some I didn't. As a Christian is this- Why do we have to spend so much time condeming Deb, and others who are homosexual, instead of loving them as Christ loved us? And praying for them, just as we pray for others? Is Deb a sinnner? Absolutely. Am I a sinner? Probably one of the biggest. There is NO ONE reading this who is free from sin. It's time we showed each other the same love and respect that Jesus has shown us, and let people live their lives. On Judgement Day, we will be accountable for NO ONE'S sins but OUR OWN. It's time we focused on our own faults and sins instead of worrying about everyone elses.
“I have nothing but love and compassion for Deb, otherwise I wouldn't have devoted so much time to her. I would like nothing more than to be friends with her and have cocktails together, but my conscience just won't allow for it. If she were just a lesbian I wouldn't care so much, but it's the fact that she also professes Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior that makes my heart grieve with sickness and causes me to be angry that she would mock God like that.”
Christine, (and I will direct this to you because I no longer will entertain the thought of discussing this was Dani) But how redundant is the above paragraph that Dani used? She uses this over, and over, and over again.
This isn’t about her. I love all people—well most people. I would never, ever put myself in the company of a woman with such a closed-minded and hateful spirit. Not only that, she is not good enough to even be in my presence. I say I say that because of the massive amount of hate in her heart. She’s not trying to help me, she’s trying to insult and hurt me Christine. She devoted so much time on me because she gained traffic from my website. Her website had absolutely no comments until I got there. Seriously. Her motives are bad as well as her whole being. She spews hatred from all ends and I would never, ever have ‘cocktails’ with her or be in her company. I only surround myself with people who are positive and loving. And, yes, I even have friends that are Jewish, atheist, Mormon, Christian, etc.
Through my spiritual encounters with God, I know the truth for myself. Okay- you can definitely debate the whole, ‘oh well that must have been a psychotic or dreamlike moment’ for her. But who’s to say that the people who had the same spiritual encounters weren’t having a psychotic moment as well? I go by the teachings of Christ---NOT the teachings of men. Big difference. I follow John 20:29 with all my heart. I believed even before I have ‘seen’, but now I believe with all my heart because now I have ‘seen for myself’. So she cannot convince me otherwise that my lifestyle is wrong. She doesn’t even know if I have sexual encounters with my partner, because I didn’t give that information to her. She is just going by the concept of ‘homosexuality’. The sites that she gives are based on promiscuity and ‘bath house-like’ sexual encounters. That is not my relationship.
Think about it, I never wrote a day in my life. Ever. I emailed here and there, blah blah blah, and one day, I sat down after my spiritual experience and wrote a book – almost novel size. There were parts in that book, where my hand just typed words without my brain dictating to my hands what to type. I have had encounters like this for the past 4 yrs that have been absolutely amazing---and I have seen JESUS appear in front of me along with a friend who was nearby. She saw Him too. Now, tell me I’m psychotic, tell me I’m nuts, but I saw what I saw, and I believe with all my heart that JESUS says that I am saved. I’ve heard Him.
So who should I believe… Jesus? Or Dani?
Be careful of what you read and preach. There are a lot of false doctrines out there that can baffle one’s conscience and beliefs. Just have an opened mind and ‘talk to God’ alone, but don’t forget to “listen to Him”. He does respond in mysterious ways as well as appear to you at any given moment. If you have enough faith, you will see and hear from Him… And Christine, I know you do!
Love you!
Deb
P.S. And Dani? I profess Jesus Christ as my personal Savior!!!!!!!!!! And always will!!!!!!!!!!!!
Deb,
I'm glad to hear that you had repented of your sins (including homosexual behavior) and are born again in Jesus Christ! That is such good news to my ears (actually eyes cause I read it!)and as you read in the link I provided (Once Saved, Always Saved), I sincerely believe that when we sincerely repent of all our sins (sins of commission and omission)accept Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross for our sakes, invite Him into our hearts to be Lord and Savior, then we are His forever.
We know that God doesn't look upon the outside appearance. He looks at the heart.
But what I will say next might upset you. In advance, I want to say that I am sorry if what I'm about to tell you hurts you...I don't want to do that...but it is necessary.
Since you have repented in the past, you are not under condemnation for your sins. That includes past, present and future sins. However, (IMHO)when you teach others that there is no need to repent of their homosexual behavior (as you admit to have already done within yourself), then you are in grave error according to what is written in the Scriptures as to what is needed for salvation.
If your conversion was genuine (I can't know for sure but it appears to me that this is so), then if you are still, currently, engaging is sexual sin, then you are (personally) living in a backsliden state of sin. One day, you will have to answer for continuing in such sin. You may miss out on certain rewards granted for those who hold steadfast in the faith. However, you (personally) will not be condemned for it because you are covered by the mercy and grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ at the cross.
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2Cr 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
These verse tell us that the "old self has passed away" and we are "a new creation in Christ." As ambassadors for Christ we are to pray for and lead others in the direction towards reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ.
My question is, "what about those who have never repented and now don't believe that it is necessary because of your words?
This is the danger that concerns both Dani and I. We are worried about would-be believers in Christ being led astray by false doctrine and missing the chance of reconcilition unto God through Christ because of impenitence.
Because of what Christ has done,(taken our place and suffered the penalty for our sin at the cross), our goal is to strive "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Sin in our lives hinders this goal. Wouldn't you agree?
There is such a thing as a false convert. You might wonder how I could possibly know this. The answer is because I used to be one! I discussed the concept (and reality) that there are false converts (in practically every church!) in a former blogpost.
Have you ever heard of, or read, "The Way of the Master" by Ray Comfort? It's an excellent book! I think that everyone needs to read it! The beginning will shock the daylights out of you...but keep reading because the ending is awesome. I guarantee that you will have that ah ha...I truly get it now! moment.
I hope you will take the time to read the post at the link above. Here, I will copy and paste a few paragraphs from the end of the post:
"How do we know and recognize who is genuinely following God or being deceived by the "author of confusion?"
Paul says it quite well in 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (below in last paragraph).
A good indicator is this:
You can discern where a person is, spiritually, through the evidence of whether or not their faith appears to be in the wisdom of men or genuinely in the power of God!
The evidence of a person's faith can be seen through their knowledge of, and adherance to, God's Word. The difference between recognizing those who have "turned from the truth" (see 5 examples above) and those who cling to Christ and His Word make this truly obvious when discerning such matters.
Christ Crucified
2And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the *testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of *human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."
This is why knowing God's Word is crucial in determining truth. We can so easily be led astray by the wisdom of men unless we continue to search the Scriptures.
Jesus himself warns us:
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (bold mine)
In fact, He said this several times!
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
We are told that through searching the scriptures, they will testify of Jesus. You have already shown that you believe this to be true.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Look at what Paul tells us in Acts. We are to search the scriptures daily to discern truth from error!
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (bold mine)
We need to do this so that we are not led astray!
Look at all of these scriptures that reveal how important it is for each Christian believer to continue studying!
Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The Bible is our instruction manual for Christian living. I see that you realize this because you have been studying for many years. But we have never, and will never completely arrive to the point of knowing them completely! I discover new things that Scripture reveals almost every week! Especially when I am in a Bible study class.
I'm sharing all of this so that you will see that I'm not trying to appear "superior" to you, Dani, or any other Christian believer. We all can learn from each other...amen?
My dear friend Susan Smith from Jerusalem once posted on my blog, "with many words there is sin." Being the type of blogger who writes long blogposts, I was a bit taken aback! (Remember Susan?) However, when we discussed further and I realized that Susan was trying to share good Biblical advice with me, my attitude changed about what she said. (To bad my posts haven't shortened much...huh Susan? LOL!)
What I'm trying to say is that even through our mistaken views of what other Christians are trying to communicate, if we take down our defensive shields because we may not particularly like what we are reading, we can still learn from each other.
When I first started blogging, I have to admit that I "blew it" while trying to minister to homosexual people who were visiting my blog. It got to the point where I decided that perhaps I'm not the type of Christian believer who was meant to evangelize to them. Within a post called I Wish I Had Said That, I offered up an apology for anything that I may have said that hurt anyone from the gay and lesbian community (as well as the fear of compromising a friend's ex-gay ministry efforts) while trying to share the Gospel of Christ on this blog. It was a humbling time for me. I was determined not to write about the topic of homosexuality anymore. Let someone else do it! But I got phonecalls and emails encouraging me to go on and not to "give up on these people." At first, I didn't think of it that way! I was wallowing in my own feelings of disappointment, discontent, anger, fear, dislike, indifference, because I thought I was being ineffective in my witnessing challenges. When I took the "me" out of it and focused on "them" and the truth about Jesus Christ, God and the Bible, it was then that I realized that I was being led by the Holy Spirit to continue in this type of witnessing effort.
I'm rambling...sorry. But I wanted to share that so that you might realize that my ultimate intentions are focused on "teaching and preaching Jesus Christ and Him crucified." The Gospel message is paramount in my life and I know that the Lord does not want anyone to perish! He says so in His Word! Sometimes I wonder why He has chosen this particular cultural war issue for me to engage in. The "why me?" syndrome has to turn into the "why not me!"
I apologize for going off on a tangent. I haven't specifically answered the points in your last post. For now, I will say that I completely understand (and believe in) spiritual encounters.
They are genuine because each one is unique to the believer who has experienced them. No two are alike. Isn't that amazing? But no two people are alike either so couldn't Jesus communicate in a unique way to us individually as well? I've had a few unique experiences myself and have shared them on this blog. So I won't dismiss what you shared, Deb.
Deb said: "Be careful of what you read and preach. There are a lot of false doctrines out there that can baffle one’s conscience and beliefs. Just have an opened mind and ‘talk to God’ alone, but don’t forget to “listen to Him”. He does respond in mysterious ways as well as appear to you at any given moment."
Good advice (in bold). And, we should be actively "talking with God" through our prayer life. He can (and does!)respond in ways that we least expect!
Enjoy this day of worship, Deb.
Love in the Lord,
Christine
Hi Dani,
Thanks so much for your kind and heartfelt words. I truly appreciate it! It is always nice to hear that words of wisdom are noticed and being shared at this blog. All the glory and honor goes to Him! His Word is what keeps us on the correct road of wisdom and knowledge!
According to the two blog counters on my front page, there are a lot of people reading this thread. I take that very seriously and want to be accurate in sharing God's Word, not my words or feelings on the matter.
I appreciate all that you have done both here and at your blog. There will always be people who will hate Christians and what we share, but we are to go on sharing the Gospel anyway. No one on earth can share it perfectly, either. If we waited for perfection within ourselves before we post about Jesus on our blogs, then we would never post anything!!
Jesus sends us as His "ambassadors" to share the Good News. He chose fallible, emotional, sinful, restless, confused, and oftentimes misunderstood human beings to tell about "He who is perfect (meaning, of course, Jesus)"!
Sometimes we may think (or, others may think of us) that we are doing a lousy job (been there, done that) but God can use and turn anything for good. The cross of Christ is the perfect example of deep sorrow turned into joy that first Easter Sunday!
Think about this. As imperfect as we are, God has chosen for us to share the love of His Son and the way of salvation with an unbelieving world! We are going to face rejection and scorn. It's part of the job description. You can be the kindest, most loving, gentle, patient, non-insulting, "everybody loves me" kind of Christian and some people are still going to reject the message! Jesus was perfect when he walked this earth during 3 years of ministry and he was rejected by many. What makes us think that we won't be rejected in the process too?
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Jhn 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Those verses clearly tell us what we are up against. Despite this fact, in the end we are to count it all joy!
James 1:12-18 discusses loving God under trials. Words of advice for us all!
God bless you Dani!
Love in Christ,
Christine
Loving God Under Trials
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
Hi Miss 1999,
Welcome to Talkwisdom! I can understand the feelings you expressed in your comment. Your points are well taken.
As you, yourself had stated, "There is NO ONE reading this who is free from sin."
As "ambassadors for Christ" who are sent out into the world for the purpose of evangelism (Christ's last command called The Great Commission), "other people's sins" must be realized by those people for the purpose of repentance. The bad news of our sinful nature which causes separation from Holy and Righteous God must be shared before the good news of the Gospel message can be shared, heeded and lead a person to salvation. All people need to learn how to be reconciled back to God through Jesus Christ.
As my original post pointed out, real love sometimes means "telling the truth about yourself (myself)" and sometimes the truth will first hurt us. In the end, it will be worth it each time one lost soul turns back and is reconciled for all eternity unto the Lord.
God bless!
Christine
Homosexuality (much to your oversight I believe, or so it seems from a couple of statements) is not just an issue of our time.
It was an issue long before the mention of god came about (do you think it's a recent genetic anomaly????) and was an issue during the time _of_ the bible. Otherwise, why would it even be taken out of context as being mentioned? This is assuming you hold steadfast to the principle that the Bible condemns homosexuality; however, I do not think it does...
I am not a christian though, I'm a buddhist. I find the discussion of a deity disapproving of its own creations' acts somewhat humorous. It would mean the flaws that are inherent in our condition are the fault of the creator. I do not find homosexuality (I'm straight by the by) to be abbhorent to human nature though.
Hi Prata,
Welcome to Talkwisdom! I can agree with what you said here:
"Homosexuality (much to your oversight I believe, or so it seems from a couple of statements) is not just an issue of our time."
Perhaps I didn't word it correctly. What I was trying to say is that it is a "front and center" issue of our time right now because of all the political, moral, and spiritual debates going on throughout our country; especially over the issue of "gay" marriage. The majority of the public does not want the original meaning of the term "marriage" which has been with us for over 3,000 years, to be changed because a small minority thinks it should be. Our Democratic Republic is supposed to go to the people when issues such as this one are in dispute. Let the public vote! As we are seeing, dozens of state legislatures are putting this issue up for a vote and the majority of the public believes that the marriage definition should remain as "one man and one woman." All other types of unions are called something else (e.g. polygamy, polyamory etc.) Why should a small minority change the definition of marriage when so many others are against such a change? They should make up their own word for their unions.
Prata: "This is assuming you hold steadfast to the principle that the Bible condemns homosexuality; however, I do not think it does..."
Have you read my comment that unequivocally shows evidence that the Bible (and Jesus) does not approve of, and, in fact, condemns the behavior of homosexuality? It's the 10th one down from the top within this thread.
Prata: "I am not a christian though, I'm a buddhist. I find the discussion of a deity disapproving of its own creations' acts somewhat humorous. It would mean the flaws that are inherent in our condition are the fault of the creator. I do not find homosexuality (I'm straight by the by) to be abbhorent to human nature though."
Creation (and the first man and woman) were perfect except when they took their free will choice and used it to disobey their Creator. When sin entered into the world, God's perfect order was marred. Each person can be reconciled back unto God and redeemed through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ at the cross. If you are interested in more information visit here.
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