When disasters like this happen, it terribly saddens all of humanity. The fact that the country is so poor, the buildings were not built well to be earthquake damage resistant, and the loss of life just hurts our hearts and minds beyond comprehension. Prayers go out to all those who have been affected.
I am reminded of a conversation that occurred at my Talk Wisdom forum way back when the tsunami happened in Asia. It all started with an article written by a "progressive" woman named Barbara Ehrenreich, who blamed God for the disaster and wrote God Owes Us an Apology. You can go and read the long thread there, if you want to. However, if you just have a short amount of time, I hope that you will at least take the time to read my three part response on the first page which counters the author's unsubstantiated and ignorant accusations against God. You will read the biblical Christian response to such disasters and tragedies at that forum. The same could be applied towards this latest earthquake disaster.
When we die and leave this earth, we are being taken away from evil. Every one of us must go through physical death. However, our souls will live on through all of eternity. Where each of us spends eternity depends upon how we answer Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?" For more information, please visit this page.
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GateWay Pundit: Obama: Americans Have “Every Right to Feel Deflated”
GateWay Pundit's paragraph with links pretty well sums up how most Americans (who are paying attention) feel about the disastrous Obama Administration:
After nearly destroying the US economy, tripling the national deficit, almost doubling unemployment, lying about openness, pushing radical legislation and constantly bashing his predecessor… Barack Obama told People Magazine that he will focus on uniting the country around common values this coming year.
Puh-leeze.
Hat Tips:
Fox News
GateWay Pundit
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More to come later.
Posts
22 comments:
Hi Christine,
Did you see what (crazy) Pat Robertson had to say about the reason for the earthquake? Apparently it is because they are cursed and made a pact with the devil (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/01/13/national/a151310S36.DTL&tsp=1). Oh boy.
Yes. I did see a brief video about what Pat Robertson said about Haiti over at Jammiewearingfool blog.
Kevin, you must understand that the Bible is filled with examples of cursing - when the people ignore or reject God and his Commandments, yet filled with blessing towards the people who confess, repent and turn back to God. Oftentimes (in the Old Testament) it was the Israelites that went through both cursing and blessings!
That is what Robertson was basing his opinion on. If you claim that it is "crazy" then so be it. But in the O'Reilly Factor talking points today, it was revealed that many people in Haiti practice voodoo. Therefore, they have turned their backs against God and His Commandments.
I don't know whether or not you read through my reply to Ms. Ehrenrich in the Asia tsunami thread at Talk Wisdom forum, but in there you will see what my point of view is.
Am I correct? Is Pat Robertson correct? Are you correct (when you and Jammiewearingfool label him as "crazy"? Only God has the final answer - for sure.
So where do we find God's answer(s)? In the Bible.
According to the CIA Factbook--the unclassified one--Haiti's population is 80% Roman Catholic, 16% Protestant, 3% Other, 1% None.
That's a higher percentage than in the US! If God's done the smackdown on Haiti for their tiny number of unbelievers, then he truly is a cosmic psychopath.
The Archbishop of Port-au-Prince was killed in the 'quake! How much more Christian could he have been? Do you think he had been sacrificing goats at midnight, as ol' Preacher Pat seems to think? And was that a blessing or a curse?
Still, that's God's usual M.O. A few people (or even one person) screws up, and God has to kill twenty thousand people just to make sure he got the right ones. Usually the victims are those who had no idea they'd ticked him off.
Nice religion you have here.
GM -
I wasn't necessarily agreeing with Robertson. I just tried to explain to Kevin the possible reasoning behind his opinion on the matter.
When was the CIA factbook published? Also, Catholicism is a religion. Religion doesn't save anyone. Jesus told us "you must be born again." Even Protestants who are not born again are not saved.
Could some of the Catholics/Protestants/Other/None also be involved in voodoo? I need to do more research on that.
All people die. Some sooner, some later. But the fact is that all will experience physical death. Does it matter when or how? Not if one is a born again Christian.
Joel Rosenberg has a good response to the disaster:
Haiti: Catastrophe of Biblical Proportions
Copy:
“Parliament has collapsed. The tax office has collapsed. Schools have collapsed. Hospitals have collapsed,” Haitian President Preval told the Miami Herald. “There are a lot of schools that have a lot of dead people in them.”…AP is reporting as many as 500,000 could be dead….3 million suffering….please pray for the Lord to show mercy to the dear, desperate people of Haiti…..please also give, if you can, to the American Red Cross and/or Franklin Graham’s humanitarian relief organization, Samaritan’s Purse to help those who are suffering get food, water, medical supplies, and temporary housing….the Scriptures tell us in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that terrible earthquakes and other natural disasters will occur in the “last days”….things will get worse, but this is a catastrophe of biblical proportions….may followers of Jesus Christ respond with prayer and practical assistance.
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P.S. from Christine: Some people have raised eyebrows and questioned why Obama instructed people (during his speech on the disaster today) to go to the WH website for donations rather than the Red Cross or other charitable disaster relief websites. Hmmmm.... Good question!
I know how you hate Google, hostess...but look it up, willya? It's not that hard!
The Factbook is published every year. I've used it ever since I learned it existed, back in my service days.
[irony]Maybe, seeing how you dissed the Red Cross during Katrina, Obama chose to elect some other relief organization to do the job...ACORN, perhaps, to further "secure his standing anong the light-skinned and dark-skinned African-American community", as Mr. Limbaugh explained it today.[/irony]
You guys just crack me up.
GM -
Why take the time to look it up when I have you to answer the question? Besides, as I stated in my previous comment not all who profess to be Catholic or Protestant or "other" follow the tenants of their particular faith. Take Ted Kennedy. He was at odds with practically everythihg that the Catholic church teaches, yet still labeled himself as a Catholic.
I refuse to go to Obama's WH site, but if you want to do it then go ahead. You can report back with what you have discovered there. I don't trust him nor his administration. I don't want any backlinks to my blog from that site.
SHOCKER! YOU, of all people listen to Limbaugh??? Wow! Must hurt your liberal heart to hear the truth...huh?
Let's be truthful now. It was Harry Reid who first made the "light-skinned" vs. "dark-skinned" comment. In fact, I found out more information about that. A niece of MLK was interviewed on Fox News and she stated that the comment had much more significance than most reporters on the issue realize. She mentioned something that I didn't know about beforehand. She said that during the time of slavery, the "light-skinned" workers lived and worked in the house (and were taught to speak proper English) whereas the "dark-skinned" workers were out in the fields and lived in huts outside of the main house. That certainly sheds much more light (and prejudice) onto Reid's comments...doesn't it?
Hi Christine,
I see that GM is up to his favorite passtime - acting as though he understands a God he doesn't even believe in. I will agree with him on one thing - It is a nice religion we have. I heard that there were 43,000 Americans working in Haiti, mostly on missionary work - building, helping with agriculture, training people in healthcare and sanitation. I have no doubt that the atheists will show up as well...as soon as the country starts producing enough wealth for them to try to take or destroy. That's their M.O. Or perhaps they'll simply put the entire in country in forced labor camps for rebuilding. That's how atheists seem to define "community volunteerism."
"Or perhaps they'll simply put the entire in country in forced labor camps for rebuilding. That's how atheists seem to define "community volunteerism."
"
That's just mind-numbingly stupid.
Gary wrote:
"I see that GM is up to his favorite pastime - acting as though he understands a God he doesn't even believe in."
That's a really good point!
Through my conversations with GMPilot over the years, I have found that he does that very same thing over and over again. Strange...isn't it?
I learned a lot about GM in the 2005 comment thread called Rationalizing God's Latest 'Felony'??
It certainly reveals a lot about his particular mindset.
Some have wondered why I continue the "bantering" with him. My answer is that I counter his flawed arguments for the sake of those who are reading along. That post has over 6,600 views!
Hi Christine,
O.k.--I agree with you that no one knows the reason God does things. But it is bad taste (in my opinion) to say that God destroyed Haiti for what a few people are doing. His spokesman apparently came out later and said Robertson was referring to a slave revolt and that they practiced voodoo. Some think the US is cursed because we have Pat Robertson!
The earth is constantly moving. That is what causes earthquakes. It has nothing to do with punishment or reward.
Kevin,
It's ironic. A progressive such as yourself objects to Robertson placing the blame for the earthquake upon people who practice voodoo in Haiti, and I objected to a progressive author who once wrote an article which blatantly blamed God for the tsunami in Asia.
In both cases, people of all faiths, including Christians, were killed.
End times prophecy tells us that all of these cataclysmic events will increase the closer we get to Jesus' return. These happenings are no surprise to Christian believers. If some Christians don't get the reasonings behind it all quite correct, so be it. We are only human and can make mistakes.
My best explanation is written at the link above. I use Bible verses. IMHO, that is the best way to resist speculation and "get it right" as best we can on this side of heaven.
Ultimately, God is a God of redemption. The Bible tells us that He doesn't want anyone to perish spiritually. That is why He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to redeem the world from sin, evil and death. We all die physically, but because of what Jesus did at the cross of Calvary, we don't have to die spiritually (forever separated from God) IF we confess our sins, repent of them, and believe in Christ.
The Old Testament is filled with examples of punishment and reward. Sacrificed animals were used to temporarily cleanse the Israelites from their sin. It was a foreshadowing of what Christ would do for believers via the cross - be the perfect sacrifice to permanently remove sin from those who are born again and believe in Christ. We all need to answer Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?"
Christine cackled:
"Let's be truthful now. It was Harry Reid who first made the "light-skinned" vs. "dark-skinned" comment. In fact, I found out more information about that. A niece of MLK was interviewed on Fox News and she stated that the comment had much more significance than most reporters on the issue realize. She mentioned something that I didn't know about beforehand. She said that during the time of slavery, the "light-skinned" workers lived and worked in the house (and were taught to speak proper English) whereas the "dark-skinned" workers were out in the fields and lived in huts outside of the main house. That certainly sheds much more light (and prejudice) onto Reid's comments...doesn't it?"
Well, yes it does. Reid has at least 15 years on you and me: people thought differently about black people when he was young.
But it also means he knew something most blacks above a certain age know; what historians of African-American history (or even US history) know; what I knew; and what you might have found out on your own, as you did with Malcom X's "chickens come home to roost" metaphor.
But we already know you're intellectually lazy; if it doesn't relate immediately to you, you don't want to know about it.
"SHOCKER! YOU, of all people listen to Limbaugh??? Wow! Must hurt your liberal heart to hear the truth...huh?"
Why should it? Oh, right; because the truth is something Limbaugh isn't well-acquainted with.
Christine said:
”Kevin,
It's ironic. A progressive such as yourself objects to Robertson placing the blame for the earthquake upon people who practice voodoo in Haiti, and I objected to a progressive author who once wrote an article which blatantly blamed God for the tsunami in Asia.”
Not true, Christine. You seem to have been so blinded by all the mentions of God that you didn’t read her last paragraph more carefully:
”If there is a God, and He, She, or It had a message for us on 12/26, that message is: Get your act together, folks--your seismic detection systems, your first responders and global mobilization capacity--because no one, and I do mean no One, is coming to medi-vac (sic) us out of here.”
It appears Ms. Ehrenreich believes there isn’t one—but if there is, it should be as accountable for its actions as we are for ours.
”Some have wondered why I continue the "bantering" with him. My answer is that I counter his flawed arguments for the sake of those who are reading along. That post has over 6,600 views!”
If you remember (or can reread), I pointed out that the ’04 tsunami didn’t care who was in front of it; Buddhists, Protestants, Hindus, nonbelievers, the pious and the libertines alike all perished, exactly the way one would have expected them to if there was no God involved.
My conclusion was similar to Ehrenreich’s: there was no divine payback going on, and if there were, the (ir)responsible deity did not deserve to be worshipped because of it.
Are you trying to rack up further hits to that thread, and revive your dying site? ‘Cause your arguments were barely adequate.
I also notice you neglected to mention your delight at the flooding of New Orleans from Hurricane Katrina, where you likened the city to a www.talkwisdom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1199 “modern Babylon” and chortled with glee that some gay pride celebration was pre-empted by the storm. Just because WorldNet Daily hates them doesn’t mean you have to.
Anyway, looks like you might have been wrong about my hating this site. I still don’t care for the format, but that’s your lookout, not mine…and as your designated nemesis, I should be where you are.
See you again!
"But it is bad taste (in my opinion) to say that God destroyed Haiti for what a few people are doing."
My opinion: Unless God comes out and tells you point blank that he is doing something for a particular reason, it's just plain stupid. According to Scripture, he does not take kindly to people speaking for him without his approval. I honestly don't know what he has or has not said to Pat Robertson, but I hope the man is being careful or he may come out on the "cursed" end.
It certainly is true that God has used disasters in the past to get people's attentions. And it is true that disasters occur because the Earth was originally cursed for man's sake. And disasters (at least as far as we define them) are part of the universe. I don't read too much into them unless I get some specific message.
GM's mention about God and accountability again demonstrates either his ignorance or his foolishness. First off, from God's perspective, none of us are "good" and therefore deserving of far more punishment than we have received. In fact, it's only his mercy which forestalls final judgment. With that in mind, the idea of trying to hold him "accountable" to our since of ethics is rather pathetic, not to mention impossible.
As for John, the stupidity falls in his own ignorance of modern history. When atheists have seized control in a country in the last century or so, it's been marked by brutality on the populace, execution of religious and educated people, mass arrests, and forced labor. As I mentioned in an earlier comment on some thread here - Atheists are very poor at creating organizations or institutions that create or preserve. Their forte is seizing and destroying what exists.
"When atheists have seized control in a country in the last century or so, it's been marked by brutality on the populace, execution of religious and educated people, mass arrests, and forced labor."
That's true Gary...but it's also true of the Christians on a much larger scale. All of Latin America, all of South America, the American territories, Hawaii and many more. All seized by zealous Christians since the 12th century, not just in the last century or so, and all of those peoples, converted by force, into the christian religion in order to save their very lives, and all marked by brutality on the populace, execution of religious and educated people, mass arrests, and forced labor.
I guess your stupidity falls on your own ignorance of ancient history. You're not entitled to your own facts. Sorry!
John -
So where is your proof of what you are claiming?
I think it might be difficult to beat Chairman Mao's 60 to 70 million death toll. Then add Hitler's and Stalin's and many of the Communist and Muslim brutal dictators. How about adding Pol Pot's death toll after Viet Nam? I'm sure that we can add many, many more murdering tyrannical atheist dictators to this list, including Saddam Hussein.
Also, we shouldn't forget the over 54,709,553 babies (and counting)that have been aborted by the liberal, secular purveyors of the abortion holocaust here in the United States since 1973.
I don't even need to look up those figures. They are common knowledge. But you go ahead and "re-educate" me with your numbers, including links to articles and historical data.
Hi John,
"but it's also true of the Christians on a much larger scale."
Incorrect. I'm certainly not denying the violent aspects of Christian exploration, but the scale is tiny compared to atheists. While there were a good many forced conversions, a good number of people were not forcibly converted, which is good because a forced conversions probably is no conversion at all. While Christians did kill thousands, atheists killed millions, specifically targeting Christians and Jews, in their takeovers of China, Russia, Cuba, and to get footholds in those same countries you mentioned. Stalin probably killed more in a year than over a century of inquisitors. Look to your own blood soaked history. And, as I repeatedly mention (usually for Kevin's sake) Christians are also responsible for a large portion of the building, teaching, and charity in the modern world. Atheists generally wait until something worthwhile has been built and then take or destroy it.
Thanks for playing, but I think you need to get your money back on your debate course.
Albert Mohler has a good essay up about the earthquake tragedy in Haiti:
Albert Mohler Blog: Does God Hate Haiti?
He mentions what Pat Robertson has been quoted as saying about Haiti's occultism and voodoo embracing:
Haiti's history is a catalog of political disasters, one after the other. In one account of the nation's fight for independence from the French in the late 18th century, representatives of the nation are said to have made a pact with the Devil to throw off the French. According to this account, the Haitians considered the French as Catholics and wanted to side with whomever would oppose the French.Thus, some would use that tradition to explain all that has marked the tragedy of Haitian history -- including now the earthquake of December 13, 2010.
But Mohler's take on it is different from Robertson's:
The arrogance of human presumption is a real and present danger. We can trace the effects of a drunk driver to a car accident, but we cannot trace the effects of voodoo to an earthquake -- at least not so directly. Will God judge Haiti for its spiritual darkness? Of course. Is the judgment of God something we can claim to understand in this sense -- in the present? No, we are not given that knowledge. Jesus himself warned his disciples against this kind of presumption.
[Excerpts continued next comment.]
Mohler reaches a similar conclusion to what I did when I wrote about the tsunami in Indonesia in 2004. No matter what transpires on this earth - the good, the bad, and the ugly, it's ultimately about redemption:
The earthquake in Haiti, like every other earthly disaster, reminds us that the creation it groaning under the weight of sin and the judgment of God. This is true for every cell in our bodies, even as it is for the crust of the earth at every point in the globe. The entire cosmos is awaiting the revelation of the glory of the coming Lord. Creation cries out the hope of New Creation.
In other words, the earthquake reminds us that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only real message of hope. The cross of Christ declares that Jesus loves Haiti -- and the Haitian people are the objects of his love. Christ would have us show the Haitian nation his love, and share his Gospel. In the midst of this unspeakable tragedy, Christ would have us rush to aid the suffering people of Haiti, and rush to tell the Haitian people of his love, his cross, and salvation in his name alone.
Everything about the tragedy in Haiti points to our need for redemption. This tragedy may lead to a new openness to the Gospel among the Haitian people. That will be to the glory of God. In the meantime, Christ's people must do everything we can to alleviate the suffering, bind up the wounded, and comfort the grieving. If Christ's people are called to do this, how can we say that God hates Haiti?
If you have any doubts about this, take your Bible and turn to John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. That is God's message to Haiti.
"This tragedy may lead to a new openness to the Gospel among the Haitian people."
That may be, but there'll be a lot fewer of them to hear it.
GM,
"That may be, but there'll be a lot fewer of them to hear it."
So what? If what you believe is true, then it was simply an act of nature, with no rhyme or reason. Furthermore, if what you believe is true, then it makes no real difference if they die now or later. They were little more than a cosmic accident of evolution to begin with, and nothing that they create will have any lasting value to the universe. In fact, an atheist could easily argue that the dead are the lucky ones, because so many were suffering from deprivation, disease, and the corruption of their government. It's only when you consider mankind as in the image of God, and eternal being, that there is any reason to care that makes sense.
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