tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post115514182961418326..comments2024-03-24T23:41:23.944-07:00Comments on Talk Wisdom: Clash of ConvictionsChristinewjchttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155235390077504762006-08-10T11:43:00.000-07:002006-08-10T11:43:00.000-07:00We agree on a lot Limpy99!The homosexual agenda is...We agree on a lot Limpy99!<BR/><BR/>The homosexual agenda is being pushed upon our children <I>through the guise of teaching tolerance and combating bullying</I>. However, as you noted, it has been taken way to far. Teaching tolerance for all is a better solution. This can be done through a program called "Breaking Down the Walls" which covers any kind of intolerance and bullying. <BR/><BR/>Today, because of the efforts to make a special kind of recognition for <I>only</I> gay intolerance, it could make for a very unpleasant situation. <BR/><BR/>The same type of problem exists in the push for "hate crimes" laws. they are geared to gave more protection and more adverse punishment for the same crime that would be done against any other student. Hate crimes laws dictate that if the victim is gay, then the punishment would be greater.<BR/><BR/>I recognize that gay students get ridiculed in school. But so do geeks, fat, skinny, freckled, red haired and (you name it) students! Where's the geek/cool alliance? Where's the fat/regular weight alliance? Where's the skinny/regular weight alliance? Where's the freckled, red haired/smooth skinned, blonde hair alliance?<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you get the point.<BR/><BR/>I attended a few gay/straight alliance meetings and what they are teaching the kids usually veers far away from the stated intended purpose. They are promoting the homosexual identity and behavior (with little emphasis on the sexually transmitted diseases like HIV/AIDS etc.) and even promoting placing them in harms way through getting them to deliver free food to AIDS patients with the admonition NOT to tell the gay partner in the home that the person gets the food because he has AIDS! <BR/><BR/>What's worse, is that some GSA's (like in Mass.) lead students to off campus activities that teach them homosexual acts and even advocate adult/student sexual encounters. <BR/><BR/>This is not good for teens under the age of 18 to be doing! There's much more, too. For instance, a group of GLBT adults came to the meeting to speak to the kids. The literature they distributed was inaccurate and downright false in their statistics! They promoted their lifestyles to the kids as "normal, natural, and healthy." <BR/><BR/>Yet, when some concerned parents asked the school to bring in a straight speaker who happened to be ex-gay, he was rejected! The talk would not have been religious in nature. But he was still rejected. So, the kids aren't getting the entire picture of the fact that gays can and do change to heterosexuality.<BR/><BR/>Back to your post.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't advocating <I>teaching</I> Christianity or the Bible to kids in high school. What I was saying is that <I>students who hold those beliefs</I> would be shunned and silenced (much like what is attempted already, but) to a much greater extent. <BR/><BR/>The Day of Silence that the gay kids have could not be countered with the <A HREF="http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2006/04/some-brave-christian-students.html" REL="nofollow">Christian</A> kids <A HREF="http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2006/04/time-for-some-truth.html" REL="nofollow">Day of Truth.</A><BR/><BR/>This is what this legislation is <B>really</B> all about. It's a blanket effort to silence the opposition through bogus bills that make the public think that they will "make gay kids safer" in public schools. As you can probably see from our ongoing conversation here, much more than that is being pushed through this unrelenting homosexual indoctrination spin machine.Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155232844873391662006-08-10T11:00:00.000-07:002006-08-10T11:00:00.000-07:00"Taken to it's logical conclusion,we can see how C..."Taken to it's logical conclusion,<BR/>we can see how Christian and biblical worldview viewpoints would have to be eliminated completely in public high schools in order to accomodate the new law these bills would dictate. And that's just what it sounds like to me...a dictatorship of the homosexual agenda with no room for dissent allowed!.<BR/><BR/>Perish the thought!" <BR/><BR/>A couple of things come to mind in reading your response, and also skimming through the laws you posted above. First, if the purpose of the laws proposed is to prevent discrimination against homosexual students, I doubt I'd have a problem with that. As I recall from high school, kids can be remarkably cruel. I do sometimes think that we go overboard with these anti-discrimination laws. I don't think we need sepcial laws to prevent discrimination against gay kids. I think it's generally understood that if you pick on kids for any reason, you get in trouble. I've always been bothered by enhancing the rules for perceived "hate speech" because I think it tends to erods free speech, even if well intended. I guess I'm of two minds on that, but since I don't live in CA., I leave it to you and your co-residents to reach a decision.<BR/>I take your point that historical figures will be able to be criticized for being dictators or what have you, but not for being gay. I don't agree with it however. A person's sexual orientation shouldn't enter into it the equation at all when looking at their historical record unless it's directly relevant to the discussion. If you can show me that Hitler was gay, and that homosexuality causes a person to pursue genocidal campaigns, then we'll talk. But if not, let's just agree Hitler was evil and leave his sexual preferences to the side. On the flip side, if Leonardo Da Vinci was gay, (side note: I have no idea if either was gay, I'm just throwing out some names), unless you're going to show me that being gay enhances a person's scientific side, their sexual preference again has nothing to do with their accomplishments. let's agree he was a great scientist, etc. and move on.<BR/><BR/>The other point, and this would be my main point, is that you're right, public schools have no room for a Biblical or Christian viewpoint. By law, they can't. Separation of church and state. While I understand that you hold your views with great conviction and are upset that they aren't taught as part of the curriculum, imagine how you would feel if the school started to teach the Koran, or Buddhism or, perish the thought, Unitarianism.<BR/><BR/>Public schools can't be in a position of teaching one religion at the exclusion of others. There are many other options for parents such as yourself such as Bible school or religiously oriented schools like the ones I went to through high school.limpy99https://www.blogger.com/profile/06975672608204212282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155226643398126912006-08-10T09:17:00.000-07:002006-08-10T09:17:00.000-07:00Limpy99,I just typed out a long reply, but lost it...Limpy99,<BR/><BR/>I just typed out a long reply, but lost it while attempting to x out of some other windows...hate when that happens!<BR/><BR/>I'll try to summarize. I am glad to read that you agree with me about how wrong it is to promote the homosexual agenda in public schools. I agree with you that schools should be a place for academic learning, not socialistic styled homosexual indoctrination.<BR/><BR/>If you read the bills in question, you would see that if they passed and were signed by the Gov., then no Christian person could ever say ANYTHING negative against homosexual behavior. In fact, the textbooks would include many contributions by gays throughout history (which I personally think can be done without identifying their sexuality), but will <I>forbid any negative comments or discussion of homosexuals.</I> This may sound harmless on the surface, but if you look at it more closely it is extremely biased! Heterosexual dictators, communists, fascists, Islamofacists, murderers etc. would be discussed in the textbooks, but not the negative attributes of homosexual persons throughout history? That's just absurd!<BR/><BR/>Taken to it's logical conclusion,<BR/>we can see how Christian and biblical worldview viewpoints would have to be <I>eliminated completely</I> in public high schools in order to accomodate the new law these bills would dictate. <B>And that's just what it sounds like to me...a dictatorship of the homosexual agenda with no room for dissent <I>allowed!</I>.</B><BR/><BR/><B>Perish the thought!</B>Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155224278195885112006-08-10T08:37:00.000-07:002006-08-10T08:37:00.000-07:00Christine, I went to an all boys Catholic high sch...Christine, I went to an all boys Catholic high school so of course I wouldn't know anything about environments conducive to promoting homosexual...Hey, wait a minute.<BR/><BR/>On a more serious note, I will agree with you that the bills referenced in your article, (to the extent they were described accurately), are a bad idea. I think high school should be strictly a learning environment as much as possible. Anything that detracts from that, be it Slavic kids marching around in anti-gay T-shirts or would-be transvestites showing up for PE with sports bras and hot pants, should be precluded. So I think we agree on this issue to the extent that high school is for learning and distractions from that need to be minimized as much as possible.<BR/><BR/>Again though, I think you are going too far with statements like "The Slavic Christians recognize socialistic oppression with the inability to allow dissent when they see it...because they have lived it for probably most of their lives while under Soviet rule." There's simply nothing in this article that supports this. The Slavic group certainly doesn't like what they're seeing, but no one is preventing them from protesting it, and in fact it appears that their view is prevailing given the veto mentioned in the article.<BR/><BR/>Free speech guarantees that someone will almost always be offended, but it beats the heck out of the alternative.limpy99https://www.blogger.com/profile/06975672608204212282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155217984898770582006-08-10T06:53:00.000-07:002006-08-10T06:53:00.000-07:00Limpy99,I'm not sure if you had been visiting and ...Limpy99,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if you had been visiting and posting at this blog when the subject of the trio of homosexual indoctrination bills presented by gay CA legislators were being discussed. If you want to familiarize yourself with them, you can read about it <A HREF="http://talkwisdom.blogspot.com/2006/05/your-prayers-and-calls-helped.html" REL="nofollow">here.</A><BR/><BR/>The Slavic Christians were protesting the possible future implementation of such bills that would inevitably <B>require</B> homosexual behavior acceptance in public schools while <B>never allowing</B> any speech that would counter their secular humanistic philosophy on this subject.<BR/><BR/>The Slavic Christians recognize socialistic oppression with the inability to allow dissent when they see it...<B>because they have lived it for probably most of their lives while under Soviet rule.</B><BR/><BR/>These people probably cannot believe their eyes and ears as to what is happening within the CA legislature. These three horrible bills would subject their children to a new form of socialism...that of indoctrination into the homosexual agenda and beliefs.<BR/><BR/>They haven't been lulled into a position of complacency like many Americans have on this issue. They weren't subjected to the <A HREF="http://chesterstreet.blogspot.com/2006_07_01_chesterstreet_archive.html" REL="nofollow">desensitization, jamming and conversion tactics</A> over the last 30 years like we have here in America. They see this specific <I>marketing of evil tactic</I> being used here in the U.S. in order to change their children and grandchildren's current biblical worldview into one that more closely resembles Sodom and Gomorrah.<BR/><BR/>[Hat tip to Mark at Chester Street. Be sure to click on this <A HREF="http://www.article8.org/docs/gay_strategies/after_the_ball.htm" REL="nofollow"> link</A> to get a real history lesson on this issue!]Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155153193492976702006-08-09T12:53:00.000-07:002006-08-09T12:53:00.000-07:00You seem to be getting off the subject here, which...You seem to be getting off the subject here, which is whether or not the original story supported your claim that the Slavic group's right to free speech was being squelched. I understand your belief that homosexuality is a sin. I don't agree with it, but I support your right to have that opinion, to march up and down the street proclaiming it, (don't forget your permit!), write letters to the editor or whatever else you want to do short of threatening homos. And I would agree that the "hate speech" card is an easily played one and probably overplayed at that. I do not know enough about the facts of this case to say whether or not the Slav's actions rise to that level, so I won't comment further on that. The point is that no authority is telling them to knock it off. The gay groups would like them to, and that's certainly understandable, but that's hardly squelching free speech. Any group targeted by another would like the second group to shut up; the test of free speech is whether or not the State will make that group shut up, and again I don't see any evidence that that is the case here.<BR/><BR/>As an aside, the fact that the Slavs may have faced horrific oppression in Russia does not give them the right to abuse others. Again, I'm not sure that their actions rise to that level, but two wrongs don't make a right. Three of them might though.limpy99https://www.blogger.com/profile/06975672608204212282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155150670665776992006-08-09T12:11:00.000-07:002006-08-09T12:11:00.000-07:00This post over at SharperIron discusses What Does ...This post over at SharperIron discusses <A HREF="http://www.sharperiron.org/2006/08/09/what-does-worldly-look-like-part-2/" REL="nofollow">What Does Worldly Look Like.</A><BR/><BR/>The following portion could be applied here in our "clash of convictions" discussion. It certainly reiterates why the Slavic Christians hold their particular worldview that is based on Scripture rather than the ideas of secular humanistic man:<BR/><BR/><I>"The “world” that Scripture calls believers to oppose must be something other than cultural popularity. A survey of the passages that deal most directly with our relationship to “the world” underscores this and moves us closer to understanding which “world” should be the object of our consistent disapproval.<BR/><BR/>The “World” That Is the Believer’s Enemy<BR/><BR/>The New Testament reveals that the “world” we should oppose . . .<BR/><BR/>Has Satan as its “god” and “ruler” (2 Cor. 4:4; John 12:31).<BR/> <BR/>Hates Christ and hates Christ’s followers (John 15:18-19; John 16:20; 1 John 3:13).<BR/> <BR/>Has “elements” that hold people in “bondage” (Gal. 4:3; Col. 2:20), and some or all of these are attitudes and ideas (Col. 2:8). <BR/><BR/>Stains (from spilos, James 1:27), pollutes (miasma, 2 Pet. 2:20), and corrupts (phthora) by means of lust (2 Pet. 1:4).<BR/> <BR/>Includes a “course” of obedience to lusts of the flesh and mind that all believers used to walk (Eph. 2:2-3).<BR/> <BR/>Should not be “conformed” to by believers (Rom. 12:2). <BR/><BR/>Includes spiritual powers that believers are at war against (Eph. 6:12).<BR/> <BR/>Is not to be loved by believers (1 John 2:15), and friendship with it and friendship with God are mutually exclusive (James 4:4).<BR/> <BR/>Consists of nothing but lust and pride (1 John 2:16). <BR/><BR/>Clearly, the “world” described by these passages is not everything and everyone in the created order as a whole, nor is it everything in the fallen order of the present age. Since unbelievers and the cultures they inhabit practice some good things as well as bad, the “world” in these passages is also not everything associated with unregenerate human beings in the present age or even everything that is popular among unbelievers.<BR/><BR/>The “world” Scripture warns believers to avoid at all costs has some other defining characteristic. <BR/><BR/><B>This defining characteristic separates the “worldly” from the “not-worldly” in a believer’s culture and alerts him that non-conformity, overcoming, and keeping himself unspotted is the proper response.</B></I>Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155147249602472462006-08-09T11:14:00.000-07:002006-08-09T11:14:00.000-07:00Comments like these:"It's much more in our face, a...Comments like these:<BR/><BR/><I>"It's much more in our face, and I'm beginning to feel like something's going to happen."</I><BR/><BR/>Translated: They don't have the right to be <I>in their face</I> but gay pride parades are as <I>in your face as you can get.</I><BR/><BR/><I>Somethings going to happen</I> translated: because they hate the sin this means that they hate us and want to do violence against us. Is that the truth? Not according to this man:<BR/><BR/><I>"Am I against tolerance?" said Neverov, 33. "God forbid, no. But my whole belief system is based on the Bible. I say homosexuality is a sin. Why are you offended by that?"</I><BR/><BR/>And what is the typical gay agenda intolerance come back to such a view?<BR/><BR/><I>Gay activists contend that this sentiment, when aggressively expressed in public protests, <B>is nothing less than hate speech.</B> The demonstrations seem suffused with a frightening rage, they say.</I><BR/><BR/>The good ole' "hate speech mantra" strikes again!<BR/><BR/>But these people have experienced <B>real hate and oppression in Russia!</B> They aren't going to have their new found freedoms so easily squelched by the gay community because they don't like the "in your face" views coming back at them. They are used to always having the upper hand in such issues <B>just because they have that "hate speech" weapon in their counter-culture arsenal.</B> The Slavics aren't so easily swayed or dismissed! Good for them!!<BR/><BR/>Paul tells us in Colossians to "declare it fearlessly, as I should." The Slavics take God's Word seriously and aren't afraid to be called "bigots," "homophobes," and "haters." They understand what is at stake and who the <B>real hater of mankind is!</B> This hater of mankind will do absolutely <B>anything</B> to persuade people to go against God's Word on this issue as well as many others. It is the lost who do not know how much they need Jesus! He is going to come back as the Judge of the universe. Are gay pride paraders ready? If not, how (and whom) shall warn them of their eternal destiny if they don't repent?<BR/><BR/>Again, the gospel message is being depicted as "hate speech" in this quote:<BR/><BR/><I>"They want to use their rights and freedoms <B>to suppress another community.</B> It goes against the reasons they moved here. The Bible never taught this kind of hatred."</I><BR/><BR/>"Suppress" another community? Isn't that what the <B>gay activists are trying to do towards the Slavic Christians??</B> Oh YES! That is <B>exactly</B> what their underlying point is. It may be subtle, but I see it clearly!<BR/><BR/>Notice this "play by our rules" mantra:<BR/><BR/><I>"But they need to consider our safety and play by the rules."</I><BR/><BR/>Why should they? Who says? Why? As the Slavic Christian said in the quote above, "But my whole belief system is based on the Bible. I say homosexuality is a sin. <B>Why are you offended by that?"</B><BR/><BR/>Does <I>offending another happen only in one direction</I> in the culture wars because of "political correctness" here? <BR/><BR/>You betcha! <BR/><BR/>But the Slavic Christians <B>aren't buying that!</B><BR/><BR/><I>Even more offensive to them is the increasingly strong push by gay leaders to bring acceptance of homosexuality into public life and public schools.</I><BR/><BR/>Their offended! Why shouldn't the homosexuals be offended in return?<BR/><BR/>And, of course Sheila Keuhl has to label them as "homophobic."<BR/><BR/><I>"This kind of aggressive homophobia is nothing new," said the senator, a Democrat from Santa Monica. "This is just one in a long line of communities who have become convinced that they have a moral obligation to discriminate."</I><BR/><BR/>Some forms of "discrimination" are good and positive! Like the discrimination against her loonie public school gay indoctrination bills!!<BR/><BR/>Randy Thomasson said it well: "When it comes to parental rights and family values, Russia may just save California," said Thomasson, president of the Sacramento-based Campaign for Children and Families."<BR/><BR/><I>In an interview, Khakimov explained what their faith means to this community.<BR/><BR/>"Religion is our life, it's not just words," he said through a translator. He said he believes the Bible is absolutely, literally true.<BR/><BR/>"<B>Our people suffered for their Bible teaching -- they were put in jail just for following the Bible," the pastor said.</B><BR/><BR/>[Sheila Kuehl calling them "homophobic" is <B>nothing</B> compared to the persecution against their faith that they faced in their former country!]<BR/><BR/>As for gays, he cites from memory several Bible verses he says declare homosexuality to be a sin, but adds: "First of all, we don't hate them. We pray for them. They are also people. They are sinners and they need help. This is like any other sin."</I>Christinewjchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434229284833642438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12391603.post-1155145163445927352006-08-09T10:39:00.000-07:002006-08-09T10:39:00.000-07:00Jeez, Boo, must you rain on my parade every time?I...Jeez, Boo, must you rain on my parade every time?<BR/><BR/>I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the article, both sides seem to be energitically exercising their free speech rights, and I don't see any instance of authority moving in to squelch that right. I suppose you will point to the 15 kids who were suspended for wearing the "No Homosexuals" T-shirts, or words to that effect. I understand some kids were wearing "Jesus Will Save You" shirts as well. To me, it's obvious that kids in high school can't be allowed to wear anti-(fill in whatever group you wish) shirts. This is high school, not a political arena, and singling out any particular group to be condemned is virtually guranteed to create trouble. Let's say the kids were allowed to wear those shirts and the next day 15 gay kids come in with "Go Back To Russia" shirts. I suspect little would be accomplished in the way of learning that day. Also, it has long been the law that free speech rights may be restrcited when high school kids are involved. That's nothing new.<BR/><BR/>My only concern would be the menacing nature of some of the comments. And since I wasn't there I admit the allegations could be false or exaggerated. The point is that the Constitution doesn't protect hate speech or speech calcualted to incite harm to an identifiable target. If the Slavs are surrounding lesbian wome and spitting at their feet or screaming about sodomy, that may be going too far. On the other hand, if they're attending a gay pride event and holding signs condemning homosexuality, well, I may not agree with them, but I do agree they have a right to express themselves. And I don't see anyone in this article trying to keep them from doing it.limpy99https://www.blogger.com/profile/06975672608204212282noreply@blogger.com