The Drudge Report, as usual, was one of the first websites to link to several articles about the New Jersey ruling which came down just minutes ago regarding same-sex marriage in that state.
Then, I got several emails from several traditional marriage advocacy groups.
Alliance for Marriage had this to say:
Decision Taking Marriage Out of the Hands of the People of New Jersey Will Propel Marriage Amendment In Congress
Marriage Protection Amendment Drafted by AFM Is Essential to Protect Views of the Majority of Americans From Ongoing Activist Lawsuits
WASHINGTON, DC - The Alliance for Marriage called upon Congress today to pass AFM's Marriage Protection Amendment in the aftermath of today's state Supreme Court decision taking the future of marriage out of the hands of the people of New Jersey.
"This marks the second state -- after Vermont -- where radical activist groups have convinced state court judges to hold a gun to the head of the legislature," said Matt Daniels, president of the Alliance for Marriage. “The legislature will now be compelled to choose between two bullets -- all under court order. Either they create so-called ‘gay marriage’ or they create a civil union scheme that is identical. Either way, the people of New Jersey lose the right to decide -- freely and democratically -- to choose the course that is best for them, their families and their children.”
"Given the continuous attacks upon marriage in courts across the country, AFM's Marriage Protection Amendment is clearly the only hope for the American people to determine the future of marriage under our laws," Daniels added.
The Alliance for Marriage filed an amicus brief in the New Jersey case decided today arguing that the legislature of New Jersey was fully entitled to protect marriage as an institution that seeks to ensure that more children will be raised in a home with a mother and a father.
"Most Americans believe that gays and lesbians have a right to live as they choose. But they don't believe they have a right to redefine marriage for our entire society," said Daniels. "Americans want our laws to send a positive message to children about marriage, family and their future."
"The constitutional problem created by almost a decade of activist lawsuits to destroy our marriage laws demands a constitutional fix," Daniels added.
Alliance Defense Fund had this to say:
TO: Christine
FROM: Alan Sears, President
New Jersey Supreme Court Denies Victory to Same-Sex "Marriage" Advocates, But Need for Marriage Amendments Reaffirmed...
Minutes ago the New Jersey Supreme Court, in a 4-3 decision, ruled that "there is no fundamental right to same-sex marriage." ADF coordinated the friend-of-the-court briefs on behalf of our good friends at the Family Research Council in support of marriage as well as other efforts related to this litigation going back several years.
However, the court gave the legislature six months to create a structure for same-sex couples to receive all the benefits of marriage. We must now pray that the legislature will take this opportunity to do the right thing and protect marriage.
Like the previous decision from the Washington Supreme Court, we had major concerns about how New Jersey's high court would rule --given their record of judicial activism supporting demands of the homosexual legal agenda. (It was the New Jersey Supreme Court that ruled that the Boy Scouts had to allow practicing homosexual activists to be scoutmasters -- a decision overturned in a sharp rebuke by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000.)
A full copy of the ruling can be read at Harris Opinion
ADF Senior Counsel Glen Lavy (right) says: "If marriage can mean anything, then marriage means nothing. This is a wake-up call for people who believe that marriage doesn't need constitutional protection. The court was right to conclude there is no fundamental right to same-sex "marriage," but to characterize marriage as just another option along with other "unions" makes marriage meaningless. It's critical that people vote for marriage amendments like those in Arizona, Virginia, and Wisconsin, which prevent the court from giving same-sex couples marriage in everything but name only."
While we praise God that the court did not fabricate same-sex "marriage", we cannot allow this decision to lull us to sleep. Despite the string of defeats over the past four months, advocates of same-sex "marriage" are re-dedicating themselves to their effort to re-define, and eventually abolish, marriage, and will seek any means they can to do so. In fact, just a few months ago, over 1,200 advocates of homosexual behavior signed on to a statement called "Beyond Same-Sex Marriage" which calls for the complete destruction of the legal framework for marriage and the family. See Beyond Marriage.
Please remain in prayer for the EIGHT states -- Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wisconsin -- that will be voting on constitutional amendments on November 7th. These amendments (as well as a federal marriage amendment) are CRITICAL to stop the same-sex "marriage" caravan.
You can be assured that advocates of homosexual behavior WILL NOT GIVE UP in the efforts to force same-sex "marriage" on America. Please also remember the marriage cases pending in California, Connecticut, Maryland, and Iowa.
Read about the nine ADF wins for marriage since this summer...
Alliance Defense Fund
15333 N. Pima Road Suite 165
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
(480)444-0020
But ironically, on this day I also received a stunning email from MassResistance which is an organization that is currently embroiled in a huge fight against gay activists in Massachusetts. I hope you will take the time to read it all; including the links. You will see what parents would have to deal with if "gay" marriage became law in any other state.
If you don't think there is a real threat to religious liberty, freedom of speech, or freedom of association, just take a look at how parent's rights, religious liberty, freedom of speech, and freedom of association are being whittled away by gay activism in Massachusetts. No need to imagine the slippery slope that traditional morals and values advocates would have to slide down as a result of legalizing "gay" marriage. We can already see the chaos that would result just by observing what is going on in Massachusetts today.
I would like to start with the end of the MassResistance email. It is a message that has been floating around the Internet over the days, and it is written by John Haskins. I first heard about John Haskins back in 2001 when I was researching the Tufts University gay indoctrination conference in which high school students were bussed from their schools and given explicit information about how to perform homosexual sex acts. John wrote an article called It's 1984 in Massachusetts and Big Brother is Gay. If you choose to read through that entire forum thread, you will be amazed at what you read there.
Traditional family advocates were sounding the alarm bells way back then. But when "gay" marriage became law in Massachusetts by judicial fiat, the floodgates to destroy marriage as an institution were opened. This terrible decision also led to the blatant infringement upon parents' rights to raise their children in a Christian, biblical worldview.
The following is what Mr. Haskins has to say today. I sincerely hope that his words will awaken Christians to the negative affects that "gay" marriage imposition would have on us all.
"...Americans are the first people in the history of the world to believe that peace is the normal condition of mankind. It's a dangerous conceit. War, and preparations for war, are the norm." -- Michael Ledeen
Ledeen's insight also describes magnificently the complete failure of the pro-family movement and other "conservatives" to grasp that they are in a war for everything that matters and that the sacrifices and commitment -- and, yes, "radicalism" (that dirty word) -- necessary are far beyond what we are now making. Proudly "pragmatic" moderates control the pro-family movement and "conservatism," whatever that has degenerated into. They ruthlessly, sometimes even viciously, undermine and attempt to humiliate and ostracize any conservative or pro-family leader or group that seems "too radical" for them.
We have seen it over and over again in Massachusetts and the catastrophic consequences of the surrender here will be felt for many generations around the entire country. They manifestly have no grand strategy, no real weapons that would intimidate their enemies, no end game and no concept of offense. How is this possible? It is because their fundamental characteristic is that they are unwilling to acknowledge that the enemies of their children are waging war on them. A war for everything.
Why is this so hard for "respectable conservatives" to face? Because it would require real sacrifices in standard of living, social acceptance, and leisurely lifestyle. It is far more comfortable to continue endlessly splitting the difference between good and evil until there is no more good left to split, snickering all the while at those who seek to emulate the passion and "radical" commitment to ideals and principles that drove the Founding Fathers to revolution and that characterize every Godly figure in the Old and New Testament.
In a war of bullets this would be called treason. In politics and culture wars it is merely a permanent state of "dignified" surrender.
John Haskins
The entire MassResistance email:
MassResistance - ** Oct. 25 Email Update **
It's gone too far:
Get involved!
Join the movement to take back our government in Massachusetts! (Feel free to pass this along to others)
www.MassResistance.org
Please help by Donating!
MassResistance Blog
Weekly MassResistance Radio Show
In this email update:
1. Major US corporations funding legal attacks on David Parker -- and the push for homosexuality in schools!
2. Ex-homosexual to speak at MassResistance fall banquet Nov. 14! Homosexual newspaper phones MassResistance for more info.
3. Learn the truth about the "anti-bullying agenda" in schools on MassResistance radio show, now posted.
4. Gays claim "big victory" in Hong Kong as courts lower age of consent for homosexual sex to 16.
5. An observation . . . ("must read")
=== 1. Major US corporations funding legal attacks on David Parker -- and the push for homosexuality in schools! ===
The next time you go to Staples, or use Verizon phone service, do your banking at Bank of America, or choose Comcast for your Internet, or buy a Gillette razor, keep this in mind: you are helping bring the homosexual agenda into your schools, including the elementary schools. And worse than that, you are helping them stop David Parker in his federal civil rights lawsuit to require that he be notified and able to opt out when adults discuss homosexuality or transgenderism with his first-grade son.
This past Saturday night at a fancy fundraiser dinner in downtown Boston these same companies and others donated thousands and thousands of dollars to the "Human Rights Campaign" (HRC), a national hardcore homosexual activist group. HRC calls itself "the largest national lesbian, gay, bisexual andtransgender political organization" and raises money to push the homosexual agenda into public schools and businesses, and to use vicious intimidation tactics against anyone who gets in their way. They are very clear about how they want to change America and its people.
Oh, and did we mention: the keynote speaker of that event was Deval Patrick, Democratic candidate for governor! And these also include Blue Cross Blue Shield and Tufts Health Plan -- why are health organizations funding this??
See for yourself: Here are links to the HRC fundraising dinner.
Coming out against David Parker
Last month, the Human Rights Campaign (and their alter ego, Human Rights Campaign Foundation) led a group of Massachusetts pro-gay organizations in filing a 24-page "amicus brief" in federal district court against David Parker's lawsuit -- Parker's attempt to get the Lexington, Mass., school officials to respect his civil rights.
Among many other insidious things, they claim that David Parker's claim is "frivolous", and they go on to say:
The mere lack of congruence between plaintiffs' religious beliefs and what the Lexington schools have chosen to teach . . . does not state a claim that the defendants have intentionally denigrated the plaintiffs' religion and are engaged in a campaign to teach the children that the parents' religious beliefs are wrong.
Worse than that - they make the absurd claim that the child has a "right" to be exposed to homosexuality even if the parents disagree:
If a parent chooses to have his or her child attend the public schools, that child has a right to a broad and high quality public education, not one constrained by individual parental beliefs.
And here's some of their legal logic:
[T]he plaintiffs attempt to avoid a motion to dismiss by resting on what is essentially a flawed syllogism: 1) they have religious beliefs which are disapproving of people who are gay or families headed by gay people; 2) the Lexington schools teach principles of equality, diversity of society, and welcoming of all to the schools, including children who are gay or whose parents are gay; and therefore, 3) the school defendants are intentionally targeting the plaintiffs' religious views and "campaigning to teach" the plaintiffs' children "that the family's religious faith was incorrect."
And here's what Human Rights Campaign also says in the brief about why they are committed to supporting the defendants (the school officials and teachers) against David Parker:
HRC supports the ability of defendants to provide students with a diversity of viewpoints, regardless of religion, sexual orientation, or gender identity.
This is what these corporations are funding -- against David Parker and you!
Here's the entire "amicus brief" filed by the Human Rights Campaign, Human Rights Campaign Foundation, and other groups against David Parker.
Parker Lawsuit
And here's the David Parker info on his arrest, harassment, and his lawsuit against the school, etc.
David Parker info
David Parker is funding this mostly out of his own pocket. The muscle to oppose him is coming from big business. And that same money is also being used to proselytize kids in the public schools in Massachusetts and across America to accept homosexuality, bisexuality, or transsexuality as a normal lifestyle.
What you should do:
People across America need to let these companies know -- in the absolutely strongest terms possible -- that we won't stand for companies using our money to attack us and our children -- and David Parker.
If the people at these businesses don't personally hear from you it will be as if we don't care. If this is not worth an extreme amount of outrage, what is?
Go to our TAKE ACTION PAGE with phone numbers and other contact info!
Take Action Page
Going after your children:
This slick 48-page book, "Reference Guide to Coming Out", published by Human Rights Campaign, was distributed to students at a local high school just this past week. Guess where the money came from?
=== 2. Ex-homosexual to speak at MassResistance fall banquet Nov. 14!
Homosexual newspaper phones MassResistance for more info.===
This is your opportunity to meet and hear a powerful story from a former homosexual who has left that lifestyle and is now happily married with children. He will shatter the false propaganda you've been hearing about this from the "gay" movement. Emerging as one of the nation's key speakers on 'coming out' of homosexuality and the 'gay' agenda, Stephen Bennett brings a bold, uncompromising perspective on one of the most heated topics in America today: homosexuality. As a man who lived the "gay" lifestyle until he was 28 years old, Stephen is now happily married to his wife of 12 years, Irene. They are the parents of two little children - a boy and a girl. Stephen is an outspoken, passionate speaker with a resolve to educate America about the truths and dangers of homosexuality, as well as to dispel the myths of the "gay" misinformation campaign. He appears frequently on numerous television and radio broadcasts nationwide. He also writes for many national publications including WorldNetDaily, is the Special Issues Editor on homosexuality and the 'gay' agenda for the American Family Association, and has been asked to speak on behalf of Concerned Women for America. Stephen is now co-authoring his first book, I Was Gay.
(This week the homosexual newspaper "Bay Windows" left a message on our office phone wanting to interview us for a news story about this banquet. As we've said before, the ex-gay movement is the homosexual community's worst nightmare because it directly confronts their political agenda and propaganda about "being born that way".)
Stephen Bennett"Let's Focus on the Children: Living In a World They Didn't Make"
Tuesday evening, Nov. 14, 2006
6:30 pm
Holiday Inn, Boxborough, Massachusetts
ALSO: Special appearance by David Parker: David Parker will be giving an update on his situation!
Do not miss this great opportunity! Only $40 per person -- table of 10 for $375.
For more info & payment information, please email Bob or call 781-890-6001.
=== 3. Learn the truth about the "anti-bullying agenda" in schools on MassResistance radio show, now posted. ===
MassResistance Radio Show airs twice each weekend:
Saturday at 10 am,
Sunday at 7 pm.
TUNE IN: WTTT AM 1150 in Boston
This past weekend's show -- now posted -- features: Great state rep candidates Will Whittlesey (from Natick, who got on the ballot via write-in!) and Lonnie Brennan (Andover) These guys are both first-rate -- the kind of people we desperately need on Beacon Hill! Also, have you noticed all the talk about the need for "anti-bullying" programs in the schools? Well, here's what you need to know about the "anti-bullying" agenda in the schools, and its homosexual activist connection. And more on Romney and "gay marriage".
Now posted (for streaming audio and also podcast) on the MassResistance website:
MassResistance Radio show
Also, there's more of the anti-bullying agenda on the MassResistance Blog
Homosexual activist behind state's new "anti-bullying" curriculum
=== 4. Gays claim "big victory" in Hong Kong as courts lower age of consent for homosexual sex to 16. ===
We couldn't help but notice the buzz and excitement in the homosexual press over the last few days around their "victory" in Hong Kong. With their usual political maneuvering, they got a court to strike down the age-of-consent laws for homosexual sex to 16 years old! That's right -- men legally going after teenaged boys in high school. Of course, this is nothing new, unfortunately. Last year we reported that they had successfully gotten it down to 16 in Britain, and were now trying to get it down to 12.
Make no mistake about this tragic and destructive movement. Coming to your state before too long.
"Gay sex victory as Hong Kong government abandons under-21 law.
=== 5. An observation . . . ===
This has been floating around the Internet over the days, written by our own John Haskins. We thought it was important enough to reprint here.
"...Americans are the first people in the history of the world to believe that peace is the normal condition of mankind. It's a dangerous conceit. War, and preparations for war, are the norm." -- Michael Ledeen
Ledeen's insight also describes magnificently the complete failure of the pro-family movement and other "conservatives" to grasp that they are in a war for everything that matters and that the sacrifices and commitment -- and, yes, "radicalism" (that dirty word) -- necessary are far beyond what we are now making. Proudly "pragmatic" moderates control the pro-family movement and "conservatism," whatever that has degenerated into. They ruthlessly, sometimes even viciously, undermine and attempt to humiliate and ostracize any conservative or pro-family leader or group that seems "too radical" for them. We have seen it over and over again in Massachusetts and the catastrophic consequences of the surrender here will be felt for many generations around the entire country. They manifestly have no grand strategy, no real weapons that would intimidate their enemies, no end game and no concept of offense. How is this possible? It is because their fundamental characteristic is that they are unwilling to acknowledge that the enemies of their children are waging war on them. A war for everything. Why is this so hard for "respectable conservatives" to face? Because it would require real sacrifices in standard of living, social acceptance, and leisurely lifestyle. It is far more comfortable to continue endlessly splitting the difference between good and evil until there is no more good left to split, snickering all the while at those who seek to emulate the passion and "radical" commitment to ideals and principles that drove the Founding Fathers to revolution and that characterize every Godly figure in the Old and New Testament.In a war of bullets this would be called treason. In politics and culture wars it is merely a permanent state of "dignified" surrender.
John Haskins
Please help MassResistance continue to do our job! If we don't win the fights going on in our Legislature over the next several months, our schools and our lives in Massachusetts will be changed forever.
Donate to MassResistance by credit card
Donations can also be mailed to: MassResistance, PO Box 1612, Waltham, MA 02454
Contact us if you want to get involved.
AS WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG - IT'S UP TO THE PEOPLE NOW! THIS CAN AND WILL BE WON.
Also, check out the MassResistance blog (for you red-meat activists)!
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Updates:
New Jersey High Court Tells Lawmakers to Redefine Marriage
Conservatives say today's ruling in favor of same-sex unions must motivate values voters to get to the polls.
Nathan Bradfield weighs in with his post New Jersey Supreme Majority Epitomizes "Breathingist"
Posts
5 comments:
Hi Stephen,
Are you the "Stephen" from the "Garden Guy" site? Your demeanor seems familiar. In that thread, you replies were kind and considerate (unlike many others who posted there!) even though we were in the midst of disagreement on this issue. Nonetheless, welcome to my Talkwisdom blog.
In a perfect world, what you shared might be considered civil and reasonable. But since we live in a world corrupted by evil, sin and death, we must examine the true motives behind people and their actions.
Granted, this was a long blogpost, so perhaps you missed this part:
[T]he plaintiffs attempt to avoid a motion to dismiss by resting on what is essentially a flawed syllogism: 1) they have religious beliefs which are disapproving of people who are gay or families headed by gay people; 2) the Lexington schools teach principles of equality, diversity of society, and welcoming of all to the schools, including children who are gay or whose parents are gay; and therefore, 3) the school defendants are intentionally targeting the plaintiffs' religious views and "campaigning to teach" the plaintiffs' children "that the family's religious faith was incorrect."
Note the "therefore" and the bold (mine) within that paragraph. If you read it carefully, you will see that the goal is a lot more sinister than the claim to "fight hate and bullying." The defendants in the David Parker lawsuit are trying to approach the case with the idea that they know better than the parents because in their skewed worldview, they believe that what the Parkers are teaching their son (Biblically correct view of homosexual behavior as undesirable and sin against God) within their (constitutionally protected, btw) own traditionally held religious beliefs is wrong!
So, you see that the fight goes into much deeper than "tolerance." It actually delves into the realm of spiritual matters that the school administrators and teachers should not be doing!
There are many school programs designed to fight discrimination, intolerance and bullying that don't have to get into detail about gay behavior issues! Breaking Down the Walls is a good example. IMO, the GLSEN group has gone way to far in their indoctrination goals within public schools for any sane person to think that this issue is only about "keeping kids safe" and "fighting bullying." They use this as a guise for promoting gay activism in the schools. I have personally witnessed this a few years ago when my kids were in high school.
I don't know how familiar you are with the David Parker incident, but briefly, he is a Christian parent who went to the school to request being told when "gay" issues were presented in the classroom so that he can choose to opt out his child from that kind of indoctrination (the teacher assigned first graders the King and King book about two homosexual kings marrying). After a series of emails, the school officials invited Mr. Parker on campus to discuss the issue. Long story short, after he got there, they refused to even consider his request (or acknowledge his parental right to avoid them teaching his child contrary to their religious beliefs). Mr. Parker refused to leave until the matter was settled, and it ended up that the police were called and he was arrested.
There are many details to consider, so remember that this is a brief explanation.
Later, the charges were dropped (mostly because the gay lobby at the school probably knew they violated his rights in many ways), but his son was harrassed later that school year and it is perceived to be a direct result of this controversy.
Mr. Parker has counter-sued and we have this situation today.
One of the most arrogant statements that I heard before Mr. Parker sued, which came from one of the teachers involved (there were many!! had to be this (paraphrased here):
"Gay marriage is legal now here in Massachusetts and there is nothing that parents can do about us teaching their children whatever we want about homosexuality."
Do you think that is the right attitude to have? I certainly don't. It is turning the tables towards favoring a behavior that is abhorrent to many Bible believing Christians...that of arrogant, gestapo-like homosexual indoctrination being forced upon all children, no matter what the parents want or don't want!
Can you be genuine in your Christian walk and type back a reply that admits that this is aberrant and wrong? I hope so.
Perhaps things aren't as messed up in New Zealand as they are in Massachusetts. Perhaps the fact that the term "civil unions" allows people to realize that a gay couple union is not the same thing as marriage helps to keep the manipulation tactics of homosexual indoctrination at bay. But here, particularly in the state of Massachusetts (California and New Jersey too), it's a serious concern and problem for many parents; especially religious Jews and Christians.
Again with the activist judge's argument. New Jersey has no law or constitiutional article banning gay marriage. I learned that today by reading the newspaper. It does have constitutional language about equal rights. Therefore, the Court gave the legislature a choice, (or, as your sources so subtly put it, "held a gun to their heads"), either legalize gay marriage or come up with an alternative that gives a gay couple all of the legal rights that a heterosexual couple has. This does not take the matter out of the hands of the public, even though, as I've said before, the courts are not supposed to decide cases based on thier popularity with voters, but rather on the law as it exists. Indeed, the legislature, which is elected by the public, (or the mob, since this is New Jersey), has to decide, and presumably the elected representatives of the people will listen to the people when making their decision. And the people, even the small-minded souls terrified of the big, bad homosexual menace, still have the right to try to get a constitutional amendment passed outlawing gay marriage or unions, in which case the court would have a law to interpret as you deem correct. Probably won't happen in NJ, but they still ahve the right to try.
I don't know anything about Parker's case, so I won't comment on the specifcs of it. In general, however, I think that the schools do have to draw a line somewhere as to what they will and will not do to accomodate a parent's belief. A general policy that everyone in school is going to be tolerated and not bullied seems like a fine thing. You may argue that this is an insidious attempt to further the homosexual agenda, but taken to an extreme point of view, what if I decide I don't want my kids taught that blacks are equal to whites? that women are fit for anything other than cooking and having babies? that Mexicans aren't thieves? that algebra isn't some vast conspiracy launched by Arabs to make us all miserable? The schools, especially the public ones, have to function in such a fashion as to educate ALL kids. And a policy of tolerance towards all furthers this. I don't know about "King & King", but I do know I want my kids is the best learning environment possible and that includes getting along with everyone.
Except those chess club geeks.
Dear Stephen,
Thanks for sharing your heart on this volatile issue in such a civil and Christian-brotherly manner. It is so rare here in America (unfortunately) because the battle lines are often drawn and no one wants to cross over for reasonable discussion without demonizing the other side. At least that has been my experience, most of the time. Two exceptions were bloggers named Mamalicious and Deb. They at least held conversations with me that were loving and trying to be understanding while disagreeing on certain aspects of what it means to be a Christian. They both expressed to me their acceptance of being self-identified lesbian persons and how they think that continuing in a same-sex relationship is not (in their view) a sin against God and His Laws.
I only brought all that up as a backdrop to my reply.
Last night, after reading your long comment (ha ha...you join me and Deb in the longwinded poster category!), I wanted to sleep on it, pray about it, and seek the Holy Spirit's leading in my answer to your post.
Well...as usual, when I have something heavy on my heart or occupying my mind, I awoke two hours early! It is usually in the early morning hours where Scripture, commentaries, real life situations, and answers to tough questions are brought to my mind. That is what happened this morning. It was kind of a "flood" of information that overwhelmed me a bit, but hopefully, I will be able to sort out my thoughts and answer your post thoroughly, Scripturally, and with points to back up what I reply to you. This will probably take some time and I plan on starting right away.
Is it OK with you if I start a new thread based on your comments? If you prefer to keep the convo going in this thread then I will do that.
The reason I'd like to start a new thread is because your reply delves into several other related subjects...that being "judge not," "don't cause a brother to stumble," and "weak Christians vs. strong Christians."
I do have a few questions. I hope you won't mind answering them.
1. How and when were you born-again in Jesus Christ? Would you consider sharing your testimony with me? You can either share it here or send it to me by email. (chriswatson@cox.net)
2. How old are you now? From your post I know that you are over 25.
3. How long have you been a Christian and how long have you studied the Bible? Your answer will give me a reference point. As we both know, we could study the Bible till we are 100 yrs. old and still never know it all! It's a unique and remarkable book that continually teaches us throughout our lifetimes.
If interested, you can get some background information about me by reading my testimony here.
Hi Stephen,
I'm sorry that you felt offended by my questions. I certainly didn't mean to "question your credentials." I just thought it might help our conversation along by knowing each other's Christian background and testimony.
After going to your links and reading about you I see that we have a few things in common! A Catholic mom and Protestant dad; plus, an introduction to the (somewhat startling) Charismatic side of Christianity!
After reading your testimony, background, and coming out explanation, I can see your point about "not wanting to cause a brother to stumble."
I wouldn't want to do that.
I'm not sure where you read about me "quoting Bible verses and calling homosexuals wicked."
Perhaps you are referring to the post that describes Jesus' reference to the signs of the end times and his return as being similar to "the days of Lot?"
The Bible tells us that the men of the city of Sodom came to Lot's door, specifically because they wanted to have sex with the male visitors. Lot told them, "do not do so wickedly." He was obviously referring to their desire to "know them carnally." Knowing that these male visitors were special messengers from God, Lot was apparently trying to protect them while under his roof, pleading with the homosexuals not to do this. We know that these men outside were suddenly struck with blindness so that they couldn't find the door. There is a lot of symbolism involved in this account.
But if discussing these "clobber verses," as you described them doesn't appeal to you, I think it might be best to continue our conversation in the direction that you want to take it. I certainly would not want to upset you anymore. I realize that you happen to think that these same verses should be interpreted differently.
So, I will leave it up to you to direct where our conversation goes from here.
God bless...
Dear Stephen,
I am sitting here trying to decide whether or not to post this comment. I decided to come back up to the top just to tell you that I do not want to hurt you or your walk with Jesus Christ. I have found myself in this predicament several times in the past, and it led, unfortunately, to a few gay and lesbian commenters leaving this blog.
That's not my goal, but it happened. It was then that I wrote this blogpost, thinking that it might be better for someone else (perhaps an ex-gay Christian believer) to minister to gays and lesbians. I thought that perhaps it was a sign from the Lord (the fact that they left) that I shouldn't be arguing with the gay-behavior-affirming Christians anymore.
But then, I meet wonderful people like you who want to discuss our differences. If I just "agree to disagree" then everything will be "comfy...cozy," so to speak (a line I borrowed from the movie "Hook"). But the gospel isn't a message that is always comfy and cozy. In fact, because of our need to acknowledge our sinfulness before God, confess, and repent, it is the "bad news" of the gospel that must be heard first before the Good News of the gospel can be realized.
I'm babbling... forgive me. But I wanted to add this up top so that you won't consider what I wrote below as "clobbering" you.
I'm off to an appointment now...be back later.
Love & Belief,
Christine
*******
I had previously discussed (link below) what Jesus was referring to when he said that his return would be "as in the days of Lot" and in the "days of Noah." We know how grievous the sins (which also included idolatry...but especially the sexual immorality going on) were during those two times. Because of unrepentance (and ignoring the warnings of Noah), the people perished.
There is a verse in Jude that mentions Sodom and Gomorrah, which equates the sins of those cities with going after "strange flesh."
Jud 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
I did a search at the Blue Letter Bible website for corrolating verses to Jude 1:7 and you can read them here.
The whole, entire message of the Bible must be taken into consideration when discussing certain verses. Looking at correlating verses helps us in our understanding of individual verses. We find the following verses under the term "strange" as correlating with the warnings in Jude.
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
With that said, I will agree with you that the men of Sodom were out to rape the angels who appeared as men at Lot's house. No question about that. However, when examining the whole of Scripture on this subject (especially taking into consideration Jude), we cannot help but notice the sin involved is not just about the fact that these men wanted to rape the male visitors.
Going back to Jude, notice the reference to Jesus:
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Please don't think that I am saying that homosexual sex acts were the "only sin" that Jesus was refering to would be a sign of the end times and his return. But as was pointed out by author Jerry Cesario (included within this post), it is, unmistakably, one of the signs.
However, there's certainly enough blame for "ungodly lusts" to go around!
Isn't our world filled with ungodly lusts?? We see the explosion of porn. We hear about internet predators seeking sex with underage teens. We see the terrible rape and murders of children (both homosexual and heterosexual perpetrators), and the kidnapping and murder of college students.
I thank God that the book of Jude ends on a positive note.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jud 1:20 ¶ But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 ¶ Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Clinging to the Lord Jesus Christ will see us through...Amen?
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