I was curious as to how the "Rational Response Squid" would view their performance in the debate, so I ventured over to their atheist website. Found it interesting that the video segment (which was supposed to show their favorite parts of the debate) doesn't even work when you click on it.
Hmmm.....
Of course, there were the usual insults that one might expect to find at a God-haters website. They have a blasphemous ad that contains a picture of Jesus on a lollipop with the caption, "Jesus is for suckers." Yet, during the debate, Kelly claimed that Jesus was a myth. For rational, reasonable people, they sure are having difficulty making up their minds...aren't they?
Hmmm....
To bad they don't have a place to post comments. I would have loved to share my take on the debate with them. But I guess "rational response" people only view their own responses as worthy of being shared at their site.
Hmmm....
It's interesting that they claim to have "won" the debate. Depends on what a person views as "winning." The poll question at the Nightline site asks:
Kirk Cameron and preacher Ray Comfort came together to challenge two self-proclaimed atheists to debate the existence of God.
Do you believe that God exists?
Yes. I believe there is a God. 14,538
No. There is no evidence that God exists. 5,091
Maybe. I'd like to believe there is a God, but I'm not sure. 407
Total Vote: 20,036
Not a scientific survey.
Seems to me that the overwhelming response on God's side (plus the maybes) far outweigh the responses that claim there is no evidence that God exists.
After viewing the videos a second time, the nasty attitudes of Brian and Kelly really are so obvious. It's truly sad. You can tell that they don't have "that peace that surpasses all understanding" because of their rejection of the God of the Bible.
As if the nastiness during the debates weren't enough, they also have a very disrespectful comment written just before a link where people can see more foolish individuals "blaspheme the Holy Spirit" in YouTube videos.
At their website, it says:
More Videos Denying the Holy Spit:
Let's see what the Bible says about foolish people like Brian and Kelly:
Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred [with] lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, [is] a fool.
Pro 14:16 A wise [man] feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
Pro 18:7 A fool's mouth [is] his destruction, and his lips [are] the snare of his soul.
Pro 19:1 Better [is] the poor that walketh in his integrity, than [he that is] perverse in his lips, and is a fool.
Pro 17:16 Wherefore [is there] a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing [he hath] no heart [to it]?
Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro 10:10 He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.
Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Pro 24:7 Wisdom [is] too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, [so] a fool returneth to his folly.
Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
Remember when Ray Comfort said that God can be found by those who "have eyes that see and a brain that works?"
Ecc 2:14 The wise man's eyes [are] in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
*******
Update 5/15/07
Neglected to mention that I recently saw a bumper sticker that said:
Obey
Pray
Trust
What would an atheist's bumper sticker response possibly be?
Disobey?
Scoff?
Deceive?
Hmmm....
Those last three attitudes sound eerily like a certain character in the Bible who originally rebelled against God...doesn't it?
Let's take it further. I will find Bible verses that support all six attitudes and we will se what God's Word says about them.
1. Obey
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Regarding Jesus:
Mat 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2. Pray
(Note: "Pray" appears 313 times in the KJV Bible!)
Mat 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Jesus himself prayed to the Father:
Mat 14:23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Jesus' admonition to us to pray:
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
We are even to pray for our enemies: (Did you notice that Kirk mentioned that he prayed for the atheist Brian prior to the debate?)
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Jesus instructs us to pray for the salvation of non-believers:
Luk 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly [is] great, but the labourers [are] few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them [to this end], that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Jesus prays to the Father to send the Holy Spirit:
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Jesus prays for all believers; past, present and future:
Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Pray to repent:
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
3. Trust
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.
Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 18:2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.
Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring [it] to pass.
Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:4 Blessed [is] that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Psa 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.
Psa 62:8 Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah.
Psa 73:28 But [it is] good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.
Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
(there are dozens more, too!)
*******
Rebellious, proud, reprobate, rejectors of God:
1. Disobey
Job 36:12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2. Scoffers
An entire chapter in 2 Peter 3 (NKJV) describes scoffers!
2Pe 3:1 BELOVED, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),
2Pe 3:2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[fn1] the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[fn2] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[fn3]
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Footnotes:
3:2 NU-Text and M-Text read commandment of the apostles of your Lord and Savior or commandment of your apostles of the Lord and Savior.
3:9 NU-Text reads you.
3:10 NU-Text reads laid bare (literally found).
3. Deceive
Pro 24:28 Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive [not] with thy lips.
Isa 36:14 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you.
Jer 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.
Jesus admonishes us not to be deceived:
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Colossians 2:8 (NIV) - See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Posts
6 comments:
Christine--
1. Ahteists are not "god haters" any more than you hate Zeus. If there were millions of people that believed in Zeus, what would your thoughts be on a "Zeus is for suckers" picture? Same case.
2. Your depiction of 'what would an atheist's bumper sticker be?' is a straw man--I'd go as far as saying it is slanderous, making you guilty of foolishness by your own Proverbs 10:18 definition.
An atheist bumper sticker would more likely be "Think."
Have a great day.
Update 5/15/07
(Also added to original blogpost)
Neglected to mention that I recently saw a bumper sticker that said:
Obey
Pray
Trust
What would an atheist's bumper sticker response possibly be?
Disobey?
Scoff?
Deceive?
Hmmm....
Those last three attitudes sound eerily like a certain character in the Bible who originally rebelled against God...doesn't it?
Let's take it further. I will find Bible verses that support all six attitudes and we will se what God's Word says about them.
1. Obey
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Regarding Jesus:
Mat 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2. Pray
(Note: "Pray" appears 313 times in the KJV Bible!)
Mat 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Jesus himself prayed to the Father:
Mat 14:23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Jesus' admonition to us to pray:
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
We are even to pray for our enemies: (Did you notice that Kirk mentioned that he prayed for the atheist Brian prior to the debate?)
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Jesus instructs us to pray for the salvation of non-believers:
Luk 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly [is] great, but the labourers [are] few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them [to this end], that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Jesus prays to the Father to send the Holy Spirit:
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Jesus prays for all believers; past, present and future:
Jhn 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Pray to repent:
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
3. Trust
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.
Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
Psa 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psa 18:2 The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.
Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring [it] to pass.
Psa 37:40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.
Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:4 Blessed [is] that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Psa 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.
Psa 62:8 Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah.
Psa 73:28 But [it is] good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.
Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 118:8 [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
(there are dozens more, too!)
*******
Rebellious, proud, reprobate, rejectors of God:
1. Disobey
Job 36:12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2. Scoffers
An entire chapter in 2 Peter 3 (NKJV) describes scoffers!
2Pe 3:1 BELOVED, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),
2Pe 3:2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[fn1] the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[fn2] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[fn3]
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Footnotes:
3:2 NU-Text and M-Text read commandment of the apostles of your Lord and Savior or commandment of your apostles of the Lord and Savior.
3:9 NU-Text reads you.
3:10 NU-Text reads laid bare (literally found).
3. Deceive
Pro 24:28 Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive [not] with thy lips.
Isa 36:14 Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you.
Jer 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, [and] weary themselves to commit iniquity.
Jesus admonishes us not to be deceived:
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Colossians 2:8 (NIV) - See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Juan,
In case you didn't notice (obviously, by your response you didn't) I was referring specifically to the "Rational Response Squad" in this post. They have taken their atheism a step further by encouraging people to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit" via a YouTube pronouncement. If that doesn't decend them into the pit of hell as God haters, then what would?
In fact, both Brian and Kelly stated during the debate that if they are wrong (about the fact that God exists and there is a hell for rebellious, reprobate, unrepentant sinners), they would rather go to hell than worship God.
Not so obviously, because I did.
Do read my point 1 completely. These atheists would not make such a big deal of christianity if it was less pervasive, as other mythologies are.
I don't remember exactly what Brian said, but Kelly said very clearly that if the god of the bible exists, she'd rather go to hell, because the god of the bible is (I paraphrase) a cruel, selfish, arbitrary genocidal maniac. Your god established a set of rules, created beings of a nature opposite to those rules, and then proceeded to punish them for not complying. He later sends himself to "save" us from those sins he himself defined. Such "god" doesn't deserve my respect, so I agree with Kelly wholeheartedly.
Juan Buehler said "These atheists would not make such a big deal of christianity if it was less pervasive, as other mythologies are."
What we really have here is the cultural fallout from such a long christian silence in the marketplace, that such truly ridiculous sentiments not only actually exist but are alarmingly widespread. Christians, Jews, or anyone who walks with Jesus the Jewish Messiah, knows that there is nothing mythological about God or the Bible at all. The real myths are the rumors that the Bible is full of inaccuracies or has been proven wrong, or that God is to blame for evil, etc, etc.
For the most part, atheists have their perspective of Christians entirely backward. It is not that followers of Jesus cannot think or abandon rational thought, but that they know, from personal experience, that no amount of rational discussion can take the place of meeting the Creator personally. [And unfortunately, that tends to produce a kind of intellectual laziness, in the same sense that you might brush off someone who says you're not married when you were in your own wedding and go home to your spouse every day.]
No mythology can produce changed lives and miraculous events - simple fact. Of course those who have experienced those things will believe in them, while many of those who have not personally experienced them are going to question or ridicule them.
The difference is that while unbelievers "don't know" if there's a God, or have defined a god as Juan just did (set of rules we couldn't obey, etc.) on their own in a way that God "doesn't deserve my respect", true Christians have done a radical thing: they have read or heard the Bible - at least portions of the New Testament or New Torah - and have given God the chance to speak for Himself, and prove Himself on His terms.
And it is the history of these millions of changed lives throughout the centuries, and the immensely positive results on society, that should give everyone serious doubts that God's existance can be rationally dismissed.
However, Christians have so abandoned interaction in our society, for so long, that people cannot recognize the historical nonsense revisionism about the supposed horrible problems with God and Christianity. They cannot correctly identify a personal belief in the personal and loving God of the Bible as the overwhelming primary source of historic American events such as Abolition, Women's Suffrage, child labor laws, public education, colleges and universities (for more than the first 100 years), and much more.
Further, those who do not know God are not able - on their own - to recognize that the evil that is attributed to Christianity has everything to do with those who chose to do evil, and nothing to do with the approval of either God or Christians who follow Him. Ironically, they also seem unable to recognize the real evils of dictatorships/regimes/governments that torture and murder millions of people without conscience.
Until an atheist is willing to try what I call the Greatest Experiment, they have no license to talk about the very subject of their greatest ignorance as if they are experts on it, while treating those who know God as if they are blind nuts. That's real arrogance. At least all true Christians have been in the shoes of unbelievers, but the reverse is not (or very rarely) true. [By "true Christian", I'm talking about those who personally know God and walk with Him and obey Him, in contrast to the too-common political or social sense where someone thinks they are a Christian because they live in America or visit a church a few times a year.]
What's the Greatest Experiment? It's this: acknowledging that if there is a loving Creator God who bothered to reveal Himself through the Bible, then He certainly has the right to judge us as He chooses and has warned us, and further, that if He is a loving God then we can pray and ask HIM to reveal Himself to us, and ask Him to change our heart and life, and promise Him that if He can do that, and really does love us, then we will read His Word and try to obediently serve Him with a whole heart - since He has promised to help us.
That's the Greatest Experiment, and everyone who tries it will find that it's as scientific as anything will ever need to be for them - because if God radically changes them from the inside out and puts His spirit in their hearts to walk with them through daily life, and guides and empowers and comforts them in difficult circumstances, as Christians claim He does, then for that person God becomes a proven fact - case closed.
Of course, one appealing beauty of the Greatest Experiment is that if we are sincere in our prayer, yet God doesn't show up in our lives, then we're off the hook! So, why not try the experiment and make sure that he doesn't exist, so that you can brag that you personally tried the Experiment. But people whose hearts are selfishly & rebelliously determined to be their own god will not give God any legitimately sincere opportunity to prove Himself. Instead, they'll presume to judge God, and thumb their nose at the fact that God has promised to save us if we'll accept the provision He sent in having His Son suffer and die for the penalty of our rebellion, in our place, and to judge and sentance us if we refuse the only acceptable substitute payment for our rebellion.
Christine - thank you for your efforts. Found your blog tonight for the first time. Awesome.
Hi Analyst,
Welcome to Talk Wisdom! And, thank you for this excellent comment!
Since this blogpost is quite far back in the archives (May, 2007), would you approve of my posting it in a new blogpost this week? I would really like people to read it and I am concerned that they may not find it back so far in the archives of this blog. Let me know what you think!
Thanks for your kind comments about my blog!
God bless!
In Christ,
Christine
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