Then, at church yesterday the topic was about the fact that as sinners we all possess a blurred image and how important it is to take steps (as born-again believers) to remove the blur in order to reach our true potential for God.
[Added on 9/18/07:
Despite all the evil that is going on around us, God has a plan for each of our lives. We have work to do for the kingdom every moment we are on this earth.
If someone doesn't know Christ and doesn't give their life to Him for His purposes, then they would only see, and remain, in the darkness.
Even as believers, we are still sinners. The difference is that we are no longer under condemnation for our sins. As repentant sinners saved by the forgiveness of our sins by way of Christ's cross, the grace and mercy of God has been bestowed upon us. However, we still have a "blur" regarding how to live in the image of our Lord. This is a lifetime challenge for us. It is known as "sanctification." ]
Pastor Miles McPherson's outline told us:
As sinners we only have a Blurred Image of our supernatural responsibilities and potential. If we do not take the steps necessary to remove the blur, we will never clearly see, understand or reach the true potential of our God IMAGE.
I. Individual Personality
A Blurred Image creates an 'I AM' imposter.
(See Genesis 3:5; Exodus 3:13; John 8:58)
M. Moral Mirror
A Blurred Image becomes a self-appointed morality maker.
(See Genesis 3:5; Proverbs 14:12)
A. Authority to Rule
A Blurred Image leads to a diminished level of authority.
(See Genesis 3:20-24; Isaiah 14:12-15; 1 Timothy 6:6)
G. God's Friend
A Blurred Image will destroy your God relationship.
(See Genesis 3:8-10; James 4:4-5)
E. Eternal Spirit
A Blurred Image can lead to eternal separation from God.
(See Genesis 3:2-3, 16-17, 21-24; Matthew 25:30)
Homework: Bringing it home: Name one change in your attitude and the resulting behavior that you need to make in order to remove a little of the blur in your life.
*******
You can go to The Rock Church website and download an MP3 broadcast of the previous 3 messages. The new one (this week's "A Blurred Image") should be up on the site later this week.
Now, with the information and Bible verses from the "A Blurred Image" outline, I am willing to put myself out there (for criticism, advice, condemnation...whatever) as an example in asking the question, "what counts as "righteous anger"? Is it O.K. with God? Or, because I am a sinner, is such anger due to a "blurred image" instead?
Go ahead and let me have it. Warts and all!! I really want any feedback you wish to give and/or your opinions on how I could have responded better in the following exchange that was posted at another blog:
[Note: Some words posted by commenters there have been "cleaned up" for posting here.]
Wednesday, September 05, 2007
TWO ISSUES STATEMENT ON THE PASSING OF TELEVANGELIST D. JAMES KENNEDY
'Kennedy Caused A Great Deal Of Pain For Gay Americans,' Said Truth Wins Out's Executive Director Wayne Besen
MIAMI BEACH - Televangelist Rev. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian was a radical fundamentalist cleric who demonized gay Americans, pioneered fraudulent 'ex-gay' ministries and fought to end the separation of church and state. Truth Wins Out's Executive Director Wayne Besen issued the following statement on Kennedy's passing:
"Truth Wins Out offers its condolences to the Kennedy family in this time of mourning. It is never easy to lose a loved one and those who took comfort in Kennedy's sermons will surely miss him.
However, we must also recognize that Kennedy was a great source of pain for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Americans. In 1998, Coral Ridge spearheaded a national advertising campaign that featured so-called 'ex-gay' ministries. The campaign ended in shame, after Kennedy's HIV+ ex-gay poster boy, Michael Johnston, resigned after allegedly having unsafe sex with men he met on the Internet. Kennedy never apologized for the suffering this deceptive campaign caused for Johnston's victims or the thousands of people duped by the false hope peddled by Coral Ridge.
Kennedy's theocratic vision of America was divisive, exclusionary, sectarian and dangerous. His aim was "reclaiming America for Christ," at the expense of personal freedom and religious liberty. We respect his commitment to his sincerely held beliefs, but are grateful that his radical plan for America never reached fruition.
We believe that a person should be remembered for the totality of his or her achievements and sins. Kennedy undoubtedly helped many people and inspired them to become better human beings. Unfortunately, he also leaves an ignoble legacy of intolerance that divided South Florida, destroyed families in the name of family values and relentlessly assaulted the U.S. Constitution."
Truth Wins OUT is a non-profit organization that counters right wing propaganda, exposes the "ex-gay" myth and educates America about gay life. For more information, visit TruthWinsOut. (live link deleted)
- 30 -
7 Comments:
Thank you to Wayne for a fair and accurate eulogy. D James Kennedy was a monster in his physical life and he built his career off bashing gays.
The Obit in one newspaper mentions that "he dropped out of college to become an Arthur Murray Dance Instructor..." Hmmmmmm... Sounds kinda like a Senator Craig kinda guy to me.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/
shared-gen/ap/National/Obit_Kennedy.htm
l
posted by Anonymous,at 9/05/2007 8:36 PM
Good riddance to white trash, may he rot in whatever place is called hell if it exists. He can keep that fat ugly f--k Fallwell company.
posted by Robert, NYC.,at 9/06/2007 8:54 AM
Right on Robert! With that hair and makeup, he looked as plastic on the outside as he was on the inside; and I agree with the first poster, he was probably Gary (NJ)
posted by Anonymous,at 9/06/2007 9:28 AM
An uncanny resemblance to our dearly beloved Liberace! Except Lee would hate me for saying that.
posted by richard schillen,at 9/06/2007 11:11 AM
I just read that this f***wad was a co-writer of a letter to bush in 2002 encouraging him to attack Iraq!!! Under what possible definition of Christianity did this miserable bag of venom consider himself a vicar of Christ. He died peacefully in bed with his wife and daughter at his side--unlike the soldiers and civilians and children in Iraq, alone and mangled, broken, burned, bloody and dismembered! If there is a hell, I hope it does look like a Hieronymus Bosch painting and he and falwell are right in the middle of it!
Red V
posted by Anonymous,at 9/06/2007 1:39 PM
Gary, the more I look at his face, methinks this sad ass was indeed another Larry Craig in the making. I've said it a hundred times or more, that those who protest too much about our sexuality are the most suspect of all. Everyone of them who has been outed all have that in common, even the socalled straight ones. They are more transparent than they could ever imagine and they are overwhelmingly right wing conservatives,ooops, the new word folks is "civil libertarians".
posted by Robert, NYC.,at 9/06/2007 2:29 PM
You people are the hateful ones. To deny the right of homosexuals who are unhappy with their behavior and orientation the right to change is despicable and intolerant of you!
Your horrible treatment (and denial that they happily exist) of ex-gay identified people who have found freedom from the sin of homosexuality is evidence of your hypocritical "tolerance" nonsense.
You can't stand the fact that they have been saved through repentance by the power, mercy, love and forgiveness of Christ Jesus, our Lord.
The fact that Dr. Kennedy adhered to uncompromising, biblical Christian faith is to his credit; despite the hateful rhetoric that you and your ilk spew upon him just after his death.
You are all a bunch of hypocrites!
Wayne, your patronizing drivel that you send "condolences to his family and those who loved him" is so transparently contrived it is almost laughable. You don't care a bit about them. Don't pretend that you do.
All of your hateful attitudes here had been prophecied about in the Bible.
How ironic is that. Hateful comments abound here from people who clamor every day for tolerance. What a joke you all are!!
The fact that many here express glee for his death and spew hatred towards someone who did much for the Lord while he lived on this earth is proof of your rebellious, reprobate position towards Holy and Righteous God.
Jesus Christ said that the world would reject His followers because such "worldly people" hate that their evil deeds are exposed through His Word. He also said that they (you!) will hate us (Christians) because you hated Him (Christ) first.
Your stupid book, "Anything but straight" is evidence of your rejection of God and His Word. That will be to your detriment in eternity. So be it.
For me, I'd rather be anything but reprobate towards God like you are.
posted by Christinewjc,
at 9/13/2007 4:24 PM
Posts
20 comments:
This is a tough one for me, Christine, for many reasons. I actually thought the comments from Wayne Besen were mostly fair (though not entirely.) Dr. Kennedy did provide a great source of comfort to many, but he did have the whole fiasco with Michael Johnston. (I had been interested in that at the time because I had a friend named Michael Johnston, who was also HIV positive and struggling with homosexuality so at first, I thought it was the man I knew. It turned out to be someone else. It's a common name!) I do think that Dr. Kennedy might have offered an apology to those who were deceived by Mr. Johnston, but I don't think it was necessarily Dr. Kennedy's fault. He could only go by what Mr. Johnston told him, and Mr. Johnston was a liar.
I am disgusted by the comments left by those who speculated that Dr. Kennedy was gay, or that he's to blame for the war, or those who rejoiced in his death. Whether they are Christians or not, they weren't bothering to show common human decency.
I didn't find Mr. Besen's condolences to be patronizing. It's certainly possible to disgree, or even dislike someone and still honestly feel sympathy for those who are suffering at their loss. I didn't care for the implication that Mr. Johnston's lies were solely Dr. Kennedy's fault.
I can sense your anger in the response you left. I can also understand it. I think it probably fell on deaf ears, however. And, as you and I have found out over the course of the past several years, yelling at each other accomplishes very little, especially when the anger is directed at people who don't care to listen to you in the first place. They view Christians as narrow minded and hateful, so when we show them anger, they feel like we've just proven them right.
I am not sure what the right answer is, if there even IS a right answer. I commend you for sharing this, even though I'm sure some will hammer you for it. Perhaps there was a better way to share the true word, while defending your view of Dr. Kennedy, without giving people a way to use your anger against you. I don't know.
You people are the hateful ones. To deny the right of homosexuals who are unhappy with their behavior and orientation the right to change is despicable and intolerant of you!
Then it's also hateful to deny the right of homosexuals who are happy with their orientation the right to live their lives unmolested not your supersitions, the fundraising based on it, and the vile laws you try to enact as well.
Fair is fair, Christine.
:-)
Hi Jaded,
Thanks for your honest input.
Yes. I was quite angry when I ran across that thread.
To me, Besen & co. just leveled the same ole' loonie left "bashing points" towards Dr. Kennedy. As you stated:
I am disgusted by the comments left by those who speculated that Dr. Kennedy was gay, or that he's to blame for the war, or those who rejoiced in his death. Whether they are Christians or not, they weren't bothering to show common human decency.
A couple comments about those at Besen's blog not bothering to show common human decency.
The fact that Besen never called them on their hateful diatribes against the pastor speaks volumes to me. When a person is an owner of a blog, they often show their true colors according to what comments they leave as unchallenged at their blog. So, it appears (to me, at least) that Besen agrees with those vile comments. Thus, it made me think that his condolences were disingenuous. I could be wrong, but based on other writings of Besen and his appearances on cable news programs, he is rabidly anti-Christian.
Here in CA, there is a state sponsored bill (written by a gay man and voted on by a majority of far left democrats) that was recently placed on Gov. Schwartzenegger's desk, that if signed, would have the effect of dispelling, once and for all, the free speech rights of Christians to proclaim the biblical position that homosexual behavior is sinful, wrong, undesirable, unhealthy etc. What's worse, it forbids allowing anything negative to ever be uttered in public schools about homosexual people.
Isn't that crazy? Hey, in history lessons there are millions of negative things written about heterosexual people!
If gays want "gay history," then they are going to have to deal with the gay murderers, pedophiles, rapists, dictators, thieves, adulterers, liars etc. that shows the truth about such people. Trying to "sanitize" them into something they are not is insane!
As you and I have discussed in the past, this goes even way beyond the "hate crimes" laws, all the way to "thought crimes" and eliminates anyone's chance to disagree with the homosexual indoctrination going on in public schools.
It's getting ridiculous!
And, if Christians do not speak out against such laws, we will find ourselves without religious rights to disagree, without any semblance of freedom of association, without freedom of speech rights to train our children about what God's Word says about homosexual sin, and without the tools we need to share the ex-gay ministries that are so vitally needed today.
Jody,
The fact that so many psychiatrists and psychologists are, and have been, bullied by the rabid, gay indoctrination groups into walking lock-in-step with the "gay" agenda (and history shows this as fact - read David Kupelian's "The Marketing of Evil") tells us the terribly sad fact that despite what science says about such behavior, they have to "toe the line" and reject any and all ex-gay therapies and ministries.
Those who disagree have been, and continue to be, forcibly silenced, despite the fact that formerly homosexual people have successfully left both the behavior and the identity.
What does this tell us?
This tells us that the whole "gay agenda" crap is absolutely and utterly politically-loonie-left-driven.
Still. There will always be a remnant of the faithful who will not be fooled by the deception of the gay sinners who are wrecking havoc because they are blinded from God's moral boundaries. Instead, they foolishly follow after the father of lies, Satan, and thus are trapped in one of the devil's schemes, which is so obviously apparent and inherent within the rabid gay indoctrination agenda.
In light of your response to me, the short answer to your question of What Counts as "Righteous Anger?" is "only those who hold my [Christine's] point of view."
You and Osama have far more in common than either of you are willing to admit.
Jody,
Spoken like the true, blurred visioned, self-professed atheist/agnostic/skeptic (whichever you label yourself these days) that you are, I can certainly see your point.
Yep...it's the same thing alright.
I may be a Christian who desires to follow the God of the Bible and thus use my voice to cut off the homosexual propaganda machine (which you obviously favor) that is indoctrinating our school children (ad nauseum, I might add). However, a radical Islamic terrorist like Osama and his ilk would more likely cut off your head because of your homosexual proclivities.
Yep...you must be correct. I have a lot in common with Osama.
Yep...you must be correct. I have a lot in common with Osama.
You both believe that you have the only, God-mandated, Right point of view. All others are wrong.
He takes that to mean he can kill others who disagree. Your's used to believe that, but has had its bloody excesses curbed by a few hundred years of civil government.
The difference between you two is one of degree of expression, not of kind of expression.
I don't think you're being terribly fair, Jody. All people who practice one religion or another believe that their way is the right way, or they wouldn't have chosen one over another. And there's nothing wrong with believing you're right, spreading the word if you believe it's part of your calling, and standing up for your beliefs. There is a difference between feeling justified to commit mass murder, like any of the radical Islamists, and strongly voicing your opinion, like Christine. There are more similarities between Osama and, say, those "Chrsitians" who would bomb abortion clinics or murder doctors who perform abortions and feel justified in doing so because one murder was better than another.
Christine and I don't always see eye to eye when it comes to the manner in which Christians should spread the word. She tends to be more aggressive than I, because I think it's more important to discuss rather than argue. However, the message is much the same. We each choose a religion which makes the most sense to us, and we believe we're right in so doing. As a result, we will defend our beliefs adamently, just as those who don't believe in the existance of a higher power will adamently argue that no God exists. I see nothing wrong with this, as long as we aren't killing each other. The laws of this country guarantee us free speech. They don't also guarantee us the right to not be offended. We can legally say what we believe is true, yet no one has to like it. That's just the way things work. We are each entitled to our own beliefs and the right to defend them.
"You people are the hateful ones. To deny the right of homosexuals who are unhappy with their behavior and orientation the right to change is despicable and intolerant of you,
Your horrible treatment (and denial that they happily exist) of ex-gay identified people who have found freedom from the sin of homosexuality is evidence of your hypocritical "tolerance" nonsense.
You can't stand the fact that they have been saved through repentance by the power, mercy, love and forgiveness of Christ Jesus, our Lord."
If you stop with the hysterics and look at actual data, the success rate of ex-gay reparative therapy is .5 percent. It's easy to point fingers and say "you are the hateful ones", and spill your own venom.
If you want to know about righteous anger, you should look to Christ. Your justicification of your own boiling hatred isn't scriptural. Christ NEVER mocked those he considered lost.
"The fact that Dr. Kennedy adhered to uncompromising, biblical Christian faith is to his credit; despite the hateful rhetoric that you and your ilk spew upon him just after his death.
You are all a bunch of hypocrites!"
Look in the mirror.
"We take no joy in the death of innocent people, but we believe that God is in control of the weather. The day Bourbon Street and the French Quarter was flooded was the day that 125,000 homosexuals were going to be celebrating sin in the streets. We're calling it an act of God." - Michael Marcavage - director of Repent America
The towers fell, and within DAYS, who did the religious right blame?
"And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'" -Jerry Falwell.
You can always find despicable comments on blogs. You'll find them on Christian blogs as well when someone that is GLBT dies. You can't judge an entire community by what the worst of them do. If I judged YOU that way, I could heap so much ugliness upon your head you would choke on it.
"Wayne, your patronizing drivel that you send "condolences to his family and those who loved him" is so transparently contrived it is almost laughable. You don't care a bit about them. Don't pretend that you do."
Luke 6:37-38 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
"All of your hateful attitudes here had been prophecied about in the Bible.
How ironic is that. Hateful comments abound here from people who clamor every day for tolerance. What a joke you all are!!"
Your anger is not righteous. Those who hung Christ from a cross did not recieve his anger. Who did recieve Christ's anger? THE CHURCH. It wasn't ever the unsaved that Christ washed with his anger, but those who were the Church.
"The fact that many here express glee for his death and spew hatred towards someone who did much for the Lord while he lived on this earth is proof of your rebellious, reprobate position towards Holy and Righteous God."
Really? This "man of Christ" supported the Iraq war. He signed the Land Letter that gave GW Bush total support in A WAR. Christ NEVER resorted to violence against a sinner. In fact, he said:
Matthew 5:3-10
"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Jesus Christ said that the world would reject His followers because such "worldly people" hate that their evil deeds are exposed through His Word. He also said that they (you!) will hate us (Christians) because you hated Him (Christ) first."
You take Luke 6 out of context. If you read the entire thing, it speaks to your venom and mocks you.
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
I wish you were more like your teacher.
Amen Marti.
Thanks for your talking points input, Marti. I asked for those who wish to "let me have it" and in your own way, you certainly did that.
However, I find it a bit strange to read your profile and see that you describe yourself this way:
I am (a): cat scan technologist, sarcastic, compassionate, romantic, intelligent, media whore, diplomatic, introspective, goofy, insecure, dreamer, planner, cute, designer of bad websites, ACOA, sensitive, emotional, music lover, gift giver, cousin, friend, shoulder to cry on, amusing, evil, queer, humorous, liquid sugar, lovable, snuggable, sweet, unique, self diagnosed A.D.D.'er, bad singer, moody, hard working, distracted, narcoleptic, affectionate, fluid, writer, self identifying, funny, passionate, honest, attention seeker, lonely, waiting, trainable, scarred, tattooed, pierced, opinionated, part-time Buddhist, open, brilliant, alive, inspiring, freak, going to burn in hell, sweetheart, flirt, curious, broken-hearted, dogmatic, passionate, and understanding.
Your favorite movies include:
Kinsey! That lunatic pedophile?
Your music includes Marilyn Manson? the atheist Christ hater and mocker?
Hmmmm....sounds like you aren't a Christian yourself, yet you come here and lecture me?
Satan was good at twisting Scripture and taking the meaning out of context too. I see from your profile, you are probably a fan of his (since you tell us that you are going to hell). Satan certainly knew who Christ was, but like you, he refused to follow and trust in Him. I would suggest that you read Jesus stood the test. You might see some similarities to your "talking points" since Satan himself is widely known as "the accuser" of the Bretheren.
As far as your "advice" goes, it is very telling that you do not even mention any interest in Jesus Christ, or His Word, the Bible in your profile.
Are you one of those trolls who take talking points from other blogs and post them?
Perhaps some other Christians will come along and point out some of your errors. If not, I'll go over them one by one later.
Marti said: "You can't judge an entire community by what the worst of them do."
She is 100% correct. I know Christine and I disagree on the character of Jerry Falwell, because when I read his views of the terrorist attacks, I hit the roof. Those who adhere to the radical Islamic views kill innocent people because they're not radical extremists. Period. They don't care whether you're gay, straight, democrat, republican, Christian, Muslim or anything else...you're not a radical Islamic extremist? You die, Period. So, for him to point blame in order to further his own agenda, was, in my opinion, disgusting. I feel the same way about the man with the statement about Katrina. God did not send a hurricane to kill innocent people and destroy the lives of thousand and thousands of others because He was upset about the gay pride event. The fact that people believe these things is frightening to me as a Christian.
And, Marti, just because the percentages of gay-reparative therapy are low doesn't mean they should be discounted entirely. If someone believes he or she is changed through Christ, why should that be ridiculed? Can't you be happy for someone who has found what he or she had been searching for in order to make them feel whole, even if it's not something you've chosen for yourself?
Again this brings me back to the discussion that Christine and I have had many, many times before... nothing positive can be gained when we do nothing but yell at one another. When we approach each other with anger and preconceived ideas, there's no chance that the other person will listen to what we have to say or offer. When I see people start to make lists and throw Bible verses at one another in an effort to prove that they are "right," I think we're already too far gone to accept that the other person might have something valid and valuable to say. Nothing positive will come of any discussion that is filled with anger and accusations.
It's one thing to defend your beliefs. It's a whole different story when you do it by attacking the other person. I heard something once that I try to keep in mind...No person has ever been made taller by forcing another to his knees. Makes sense, doesn't it?
I remember our disagreement over Falwell, Jaded. However, the man did apologize for his inaccurate statements.
I just searched back for a post I had written during the Katrina disaster. Some interesting points and articles are there.
I still think that if Jerry Falwell had mentioned that we are all sinners and perhaps this was a message for Christians to get off their butts and do something to bring the unsaved into the kingdom, he would have been more accurate. I still doubt that his words would have been accepted by non-believers. They hated him no matter what.
I did find this brief quote at the Katrina thread:
"A venerable confession of faith states it rightly: "God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any way to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures."
I think that is a good definition of what is meant by describing Gods' "permissive" will.
Some Christians disagree on this point. They say that God's will is perfect and there can't be anything "permissive" about it. But I go back to Jesus' "model" prayer to the Father:
Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.
We know that God's will is done perfectly in heaven, but because of sin on this fallen earth, God allows us to suffer the consequences of it.
Why? The reasons could be many. However, ultimately, suffering is used to bring us sinners towards reconciliation with Holy God.
Even the Scriptures reveal this to be true:
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
This is why the Redemption through Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for our salvation. There is no other way.
I have gotten off the topic a bit here, but as usual in Christian Apologetics, all roads lead to the Gospel! Amen!
All people who practice one religion or another believe that their way is the right way, or they wouldn't have chosen one over another...
But Jaded, believing doesn't make it so. Paranoid Schizophrenics really do believe that space aliens and the phone company is out to get them. They aren't and that's the problem here.
Christine believes she's entitled to "righteous anger" because of what she believes. She's constructed a nice little reality where anything that disagrees with her belief is discarded and denigrated.
It's one of the nice things about the US -- our standard of living is so high and our freedoms so vast that people on the top rungs of the socio-economic ladder can discuss their victim hood over lattes and Kobe beef burgers.
The fact remains though that there are no conspiracies to silence psychiatrists, her First Amendment rights are not being limited (the can't be), and she's hasn't cornered the market on all that's good and noble in the world.
Christine...why did you moan about Marti coming in and giving her point of view when you asked for it?
Instead of being gracious you got angry and you attacked her based on her profile rather than listening to her message.
Well done.
Andrew,
I acknowledged her right to post what she did.
C: "Thanks for your talking points input, Marti. I asked for those who wish to "let me have it" and in your own way, you certainly did that."
However, at the same time I discovered (via her profile and blog) that she apparently has no working knowledge about Jesus Christ, and/or God's Word, the Bible. She does not post on this topic anywhere at her blog. In fact, the "interests" she has are far from what she attempted to preach to me in her answer. This leads me to believe that she just copied what was said from another source; probably in an effort just to slam and ridicule me.
Notice also, that she didn't address the question of "what counts as righteous anger."
She used several Scriptures out of context, and, in fact, stated some things that were dead wrong. I planned to counter them one by one later. I thought that other Christians may come along and point them out, too.
"Listening" to a message given by someone who does not know and follow Jesus Christ or the Bible is tantamount to following "another gospel" which, sadly, is like following a "blind guide" right into heresy and apostasy.
I find that non-Christians usually like to bring up that Jesus' righteous anger was leveled at the religious leaders of that day (i.e. the Pharisees), but they ignore the fact that Jesus called them "blind guides" and that they were involved in sinful practices (the moneychangers in the Temple).
Jesus didn't have condemnation for those who were genuinely interested in seeking Him out (i.e. Nicodemus).
In his encounters with sinners, he didn't condone their sin, but encouraged them "to leave their life of sin."
When John the Baptist burst onto the scene, the first recorded statement of his was, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is near."
Mat 3:1 ¶ In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Jesus himself emphasized everyone's need to repent.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Those who come here quoting Bible verses, yet, have not repented themselves (and, in so doing also do not express the need for repentance when attempting to "witness"), have a skewed understanding about the fact that "the Scriptures testify of Me (meaning, Jesus)" and the true gospel that he gave us and encouraged us to share with the world via his last commandment called The Great Commission.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
And, what did this revelation of Jesus Christ do when it "testified of Him?"
Jhn 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
So, you see, Marti was upset that when Jesus, the Light of the world enters in, he testifies that the works of the unsaved are evil.
Marti isn't a believer. She was, in fact using Jesus and His Word, the Bible, to condemn my message. Why? The Scriptures quoted above explain it more accurately than my own words could.
Found some good quotes over at The Great Apostasy blog:
“A half-truth masquerading as the whole truth becomes a complete untruth.” - J. I. Packer
“Discernment is not a matter of simply telling the difference between right and wrong; rather, it is telling the difference between right and almost right.”
–Charles Spurgeon
"Avowed atheists are not a tenth as dangerous as those preachers who scatter doubt and stab at faith."
--Charles Spurgeon
And, why would Spurgeon say such a thing?
2 Thes 2:3 (NKJV)
"Let no one deceive you by any means, for that Day will not come unless the falling away ("apostasy"-NASB) comes first."
Matt 24:24 (Amplified)
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will show great signs and wonders so as to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (God's chosen ones)."
Much Needed Wise Words
"Savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."
Acts 20:29-30
"There will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves."
2 Peter 2:1
"Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
1 John 4:1-3
Answering Marti:
M: "If you stop with the hysterics and look at actual data, the success rate of ex-gay reparative therapy is .5 percent. It's easy to point fingers and say "you are the hateful ones", and spill your own venom."
You didn't bother to cite the reference to back up that data claim. It is, however, besides the point anyway.
When just one person recovers from cancer, doesn't everyone celebrate such recovery? But when it comes to sexual preferences, the gay crowd absolutely hates the fact that many have been saved from the behavior and identity through faith in Jesus Christ.
Like I have stated previously, the gay community celebrates any and every kind of deviant sexual behavior/proclivity, but when people reject their former homosexual behavior and identity, tolerance for such people goes out the window.
M: "You can always find despicable comments on blogs. You'll find them on Christian blogs as well when someone that is GLBT dies. You can't judge an entire community by what the worst of them do. If I judged YOU that way, I could heap so much ugliness upon your head you would choke on it."
So, bad behavior deserves more bad behavior? Is that what you are inferring?
Nice.
I don't know what Christian blogs you are reading, but since born-again followers of Christ agree with Scripture, our purpose is to follow His Word which says, "God finds no joy in the death of the wicked."
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Pro 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.
Sometimes loving others requires pointing out their sinful nature and that they (we all are!!) are in desperate need of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
The Good News of the Gospel cannot be shared without exposing the bad news of our sinfulness, first. Period. This, of course, goes against the grain of pride inherent in the soul of non-believers. This is why the true Gospel message irritates those who reject it.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
M: "Your anger is not righteous. Those who hung Christ from a cross did not recieve his anger. Who did recieve Christ's anger? THE CHURCH. It wasn't ever the unsaved that Christ washed with his anger, but those who were the Church."
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion about my anger. After all, that is the main question being asked within this blog thread. However, did you notice that you failed to answer it? What counts as righteous anger?
We could do an entire Bible study on why those who hung Christ on the cross did not receive his anger (at the time). Briefly put, we all placed Christ on that cross because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The fact that there is no greater love than what Jesus did for mankind at the Cross. Forgiveness is stronger than any other act in the universe and precisely why Christ served as the propitiation for our sins on the Good Friday. His resurrection from the dead proves that he has the power over evil, sin and death. Those who believe in him will live eternally with God in heaven.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Another correction. It wasn't the CHURCH that received his anger. It was the Pharisees who were called "blind guides" and "broods of vipers" because they should have been without excuse. They supposedly knew the Old Testament Scriptures and should have realized that they (the Scriptures) testified of the coming Messiah (Jesus), recognized the signs that he was indeed with them in the flesh, and that the passages in Isaiah, Psalms, and many others revealed the exact details of the suffering Savior (Many which have already been fulfilled in the New Testament).
Using the Sermon on the Mount to condemn believers as "judgmental" is a typical ploy done by non-believers. The "judge not, lest you be judged" admonition is not a call to avoid discernment. The Packer and Spurgeon quotes in my last comment are evidence of the absolute need for discernment.
Here is a post to read called "The Believers Biblical Call to Judge."
M: "I wish you were more like your teacher."
I work on that goal every day.
I pray that some day you will repent of your sins and believe in my Teacher, Jesus Christ.
"However, I find it a bit strange to read your profile and see that
you describe yourself this way:
I am (a): cat scan technologist, sarcastic, compassionate,
romantic, intelligent, media whore, diplomatic, introspective, goofy,
insecure, dreamer, planner, cute, designer of bad websites, ACOA,
sensitive, emotional, music lover, gift giver, cousin, friend,
shoulder to cry on, amusing, evil, queer, humorous, liquid sugar,
lovable, snuggable, sweet, unique, self diagnosed A.D.D.'er, bad
singer, moody, hard working, distracted, narcoleptic, affectionate,
fluid, writer, self identifying, funny, passionate, honest, attention
seeker, lonely, waiting, trainable, scarred, tattooed, pierced,
opinionated, part-time Buddhist, open, brilliant, alive, inspiring,
freak, going to burn in hell, sweetheart, flirt, curious,
broken-hearted, dogmatic, passionate, and understanding."
Of course I don't expect you to listen. I only put your own scripture
out there because I know it better than you do. I know it better than
I know the wrinkles in my own skin. You have no place to judge me. You
can give me a site for your reasons to judge me, but Paul was VERY
clear.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13" What business is it of mine to judge those
outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge
those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you."
"Kinsey! That lunatic pedophile? Your music includes Marilyn
Manson? the atheist Christ hater and mocker?
Hmmmm....sounds like you aren't a Christian yourself, yet you come
here and lecture me?"
You mock scripture, because you can't even keep it. You're no
different than the Pharisee. Christ asked you to give me compassion
and love, yet you charge me with doing the works of Satan. Christ said
you will know a person by the fruit they produce. Has my fruit to you
pained you, has it injured you? You search for anything to discount my
words, because they speak a truth you cannot bear to see. That kind of
hatred killed Christ. Ironic, no?
"Satan was good at twisting Scripture and taking the meaning out
of context too. I see from your profile, you are probably a fan of his
(since you tell us that you are going to hell). Satan certainly knew
who Christ was, but like you, he refused to follow and trust in Him. I
would suggest that you read Jesus stood the test. You might see some
similarities to your "talking points" since Satan himself is widely
known as "the accuser" of the Bretheren."
Satan's fruit was evil. I've done nothing but show compassion and love
to you. I know that makes you uncomfortable, because it challenges
your world view.
"As far as your "advice" goes, it is very telling that you do not
even mention any interest in Jesus Christ, or His Word, the Bible in
your profile."
Does that make me a heathen in your eyes? Should I bow at your feet
because I don't feel the need to yell from the streets my knowledge of
the Word? It's easy to claim Christ, but it's quite another to follow
him.
"Are you one of those trolls who take talking points from other
blogs and post them?"
That would make my words easy to discount, wouldn't it?
"And, Marti, just because the percentages of gay-reparative therapy
are low doesn't mean they should be discounted entirely. If someone
believes he or she is changed through Christ, why should that be
ridiculed? Can't you be happy for someone who has found what he or she
had been searching for in order to make them feel whole, even if it's
not something you've chosen for yourself?"
I've not said that anyone should be ridiculed. I've done nothing on
this blog, other than speak from scripture (other than the repartative
therapy numbers) I'll let my words their stand on their own..
"Again this brings me back to the discussion that Christine and I
have had many, many times before... nothing positive can be gained
when we do nothing but yell at one another. When we approach each
other with anger and preconceived ideas, there's no chance that the
other person will listen to what we have to say or offer. When I see
people start to make lists and throw Bible verses at one another in an
effort to prove that they are "right," I think we're already too far
gone to accept that the other person might have something valid and
valuable to say. Nothing positive will come of any discussion that is
filled with anger and accusations."
I've done nothing of the sort. Please explain how I've approached her
with anger? I have nothing to gain in this battle. What will being
right get me?
"It's one thing to defend your beliefs. It's a whole different
story when you do it by attacking the other person. I heard something
once that I try to keep in mind...No person has ever been made taller
by forcing another to his knees. Makes sense, doesn't it?"
Who's the one that has to resort to looking at my profile to discount
my words? Who's the person that's already decided my salvation for me?
"However, at the same time I discovered (via her profile and blog)
that she apparently has no working knowledge about Jesus Christ,
and/or God's Word, the Bible. She does not post on this topic anywhere
at her blog. In fact, the "interests" she has are far from what she
attempted to preach to me in her answer. This leads me to believe that
she just copied what was said from another source; probably in an
effort just to slam and ridicule me."
I don't need to slam or ridcule you. Scripture does that quite nicely
without my help.
"Notice also, that she didn't address the question of "what counts
as righteous anger."
Mocking isn't righteous anger. When Christ was angry, it was a form or
moral indignation, not disgust.
"Listening" to a message given by someone who does not know and
follow Jesus Christ or the Bible is tantamount to following "another
gospel" which, sadly, is like following a "blind guide" right into
heresy and apostasy."
I am not called to make you hear me, only to speak.
"I find that non-Christians usually like to bring up that Jesus'
righteous anger was leveled at the religious leaders of that day (i.e.
the Pharisees), but they ignore the fact that Jesus called them "blind
guides" and that they were involved in sinful practices (the
moneychangers in the Temple)."
Matthew23:23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But
you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice,
mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without
neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but
swallow a camel.
"So, you see, Marti was upset that when Jesus, the Light of the
world enters in, he testifies that the works of the unsaved are evil.
Marti isn't a believer. She was, in fact using Jesus and His Word,
the Bible, to condemn my message. Why? The Scriptures quoted above
explain it more accurately than my own words could."
You know my salvation, do you? Been peeking in the book of life?
It's obvious you can't or won't hear me, so my work here is done. I'm
shaking the dust from my virtual sandals as we speak.
"Shaking the dust from your virtual sandals" are you?
Gee thanks! Guess I don't have to worry about Paul's instruction to:
"Expel the wicked (wo)man from among you."
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