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David brought up some of the usual arguments that gcma use. The dietary civil prohibitions against eating shellfish being equal to the admonitions regarding the moral laws has been answered many times at this blog. However, whenever a new person comes on the scene, it is usually one of the first points brought up. Why is that? I think it has more to do with the propaganda-like training given by leaders of the gcm than personal Bible study.
I just noticed something. The word "propaganda" has the word "pagan" smack dab in the middle of it! Hmmmm......
Anyway, back to the post.
The following is the exchange that commenter David and I have had so far in the gay christian camp? thread.
David said...
Somehow I stumbled upon your blog today. I don't remember how. I don't know if you will keep this posted on your blog, but here it goes.
I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as my personal Saviour at a very young age. I am also a gay man. I never told anyone growing up because of my fear of rejection and the fear of what the church would say to me. I have known that I was gay ever since I was very young. It was not a choice. I did not wake up one day and say, "oh, I think I want to be gay today." As far back as I can remember (which is about 1st grade) I knew that I liked other men and not women. I currently work with gay and lesbian youth and aid them in their struggle between religion and homosexuality.
It really amazes me that you can sit and comment on a film you saw on LOGO, when by your own admission, you could not even take the time to watch the entire thing. I really hope you went back and watched the whole thing. I would also have to assume that the entire camp experience did not take place in 2 hours. This film only gave a glimpse of what actually happened at the camp. Let me tell you what I saw when I watched this film. I saw many youth who were hurting. I saw youth who had been let down by their churches. I saw the church turn their backs on youth because of their sexual orientation. I saw youth who had been told they are going to hell because they are gay. I saw youth who needed a place where they could come and worship God and not be judged for who they are. I saw youth, who without this camp, may have been at a place in their life where they were ready to commit suicide. Because, I can tell you from experience, I have been in that place, and it is by the grace of God that I am still alive today.
I wish I had hours and hours to respond to all the things on your blog, but unfortunately, I have had this conversation with many people and it never seems to help. So, let me just hit on a few of the high points. The "ministries" that are set up to "help" people out of their homosexual behavior are worthless. I have many kids that I have worked with that have gone to these and it drove them deeper into depression, and on the verge of suicide. Even the founder of the Exodus project, which is one of these ministries, finally admitted that the programs don't work and do more harm than good. You said in your blog that you did not want this to sound like gay bashing, which, it doesn't, however, where do you once talk about the fact that the church needs to love homosexuals? Maybe I missed it, and if I did, I apologize.
As far as the Biblical aspect is concerned...again, I don't have hours to spend, but this is what I know. I know what Scripture says about homosexuality. I know that God loves me. I know that the 2 great commandments that were given to us in the New Testament were to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and to love thy neighbor as yourself! I also know that in the Old Testament that Moses did not like homosexuals. And I would agree with you. But he also said that woman should not wear red dresses, and that you should not eat shrimp oysters or lobster, or your steak to rare. And I know that in the New Testament the apostle Paul does not like homosexuals, and I would agree. But the apostle Paul also said that woman should be silent and not speak. A woman should not have authority over a male. What would happen to our society, our school system, our mission fields and our Sunday school classes if we adhered to what Paul told us. Should we allow all of these things to collapse just because Paul was anti woman's lib? By all rights, if we were really adhering to what the Bible says, you should not even be able to post on this blog. Not only that, but Paul did not like guys with long hair, and woman with short hair. The church has conveniently forgotten about all these different things. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and not by the blood of Paul or Moses. Jesus said "come unto me ALL of you that labour and are burdened and I will give you rest!!" There is only one way to Christ, and that is through the blood of Jesus. Jesus is the hope for the world. And I will continue to help those who are homosexual and continue to help them see that Christ loves them just the way they are. I am certainly not here to argue with you, or to be mean in any way. I sincerely hope you have not been offended, and when the day is over, I am sure that we will agree to disagree. May Christ continue to bless you and your family.
7:04 PM
Christinewjc said...
Hello David,
Welcome to Talkwisdom and thank you for posting your comments and feelings on this matter.
Yes. We will most likely have to just agree to disagree. For everything that you have said, I could give a countering Scripture verse and/or story. But with your mind made up as it appears to be, you would not be receptive to anything else I would say.
For all of the teens and adults whom you have claimed have been "hurt by ex-gay ministries," I could point to others who have been saved by repentance through faith by the shed blood of Jesus Christ at the cross. In addition to their spiritual salvation, they have also been released from the bondage of homosexual behavior and identity.
I personally know and communicate with four formerly gay/lesbian Christian brothers/sisters and their testimonies are genuine. They have repented (which means confessing and turning away from sin) and now follow Jesus' admonition to live soberly, righteously and godly in this age (which means to please Holy God, not themselves). I do not believe for a second that they are "faking" it.
Perhaps some who claim that ex-gay ministries have "failed" them are doing so because they have only claimed Christ as Savior; but have yet to make Him Lord over their lives.
Each individual's salvation experience is between them and God. I cannot claim to know who is saved and who isn't. That's not my purpose here. What I try to do is proclaim the Word of God as accurately as possible and when I see obvious heresies creeping in, the book of Jude warns us to be on guard and expose such deception.
The claims of the pastor at the camp were not based on God's Word.
Period.
He was creating his own kind of theology to match up with his physical desires. In so doing this, he is also dragging these impressionable teens away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ as well. To me, that is not a good thing. It may be comforting to their "flesh," and what they want to hear (having their ears 'tickled' as the Bible says) but ultimately, this is doing great harm to their souls.
It's a life or death issue. It's that serious! Where they spend eternity is determined according to what Jesus said in John 3:3 - "You must be born again."
Remember what else Jesus said?
"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world (fill in the sin and wordly desire of your choice here) and lose his own soul?"
I'd be very careful about what I preached if I was that homosexual pastor.
8:06 PM
David said...
Thank you for responding. I was interested in your response and I am sure we could go back and forth and I could counter your scripture also.
I am very happy for your 4 friends. However, I really hope that their "transformation" is real. Just because they have "turned away from the sin" as you put it, it does not necessarily mean they are any less gay. It just means they might not choose to engage in the livestyle. I could make a conscience decesion to be celebate, but that does not make me any less gay, the same as you could remain celebate, but it does not make you any less straight.
I think anyone whether they are a pastor or a lay person should careful about what they preach. Maybe we can agree on one thing. I want to make sure that before I continue conversing with you, that our core theology is the same. Once you have accepted Christ as Saviour, you are one of God's children and once that happens then NO man can take you out of the hand of God. Once you become a Christian, you cannot loose your salvation. Would you agree with me on this point? Because if you do not, then we have another disagreement. Look forward to hearing your opinion.
As you can see, I didn't address every comment, concern or question in David's orginal post. I focused in on what I believe is the irreconcilable schism that exists between gcma and tBbCa. There are probably lots of people who are somewhere "in the middle," on this issue, too.
Where do you, dear reader, stand? What are your thoughts on this issue? What does the Bible say about this dilemma? Why is there confusion on the issue of homosexual behavior and what the Bible clearly says about it? Why is this a fairly new phenomenon that has only developed within the last 30 years or so? Why had Christian Bible scholars from the past never presented any confusion in their commentaries that "a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination" but today's "new age" gay christian movement advocates claim to know better than Matthew Henry who states:
[III.] A law against unnatural lusts, sodomy and bestiality, sins not to be named nor thought of without the utmost abhorrence imaginable, v. 22, 23. Other sins level men with the beasts, but these sink them much lower. That ever there should have been occasion for the making of these laws, and that since they are published they should ever have been broken, is the perpetual reproach and scandal of human nature; and the giving of men up to these vile affections was frequently the punishment of their idolatries; so the apostle shows, Rom. 1:24.[Source: Henry, Matthew. "Commentary on Leviticus 18." Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible. Blue Letter Bible. 01 Mar 1996.
6 Aug 2007.]
or, David Guzik who states:
[Source: Guzik, David. "Study Guide for Leviticus 18." Blue Letter Bible. 7 Jul 2006.[4.] (22) Command against homosexual sex.
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
a. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman: Simply put, God calls homosexual sex an abomination, even as He does in Romans 1:24-32. Additionally, homosexuality was part of the idolatrous perversions which were allowed in Israel at its times of backsliding (1 Kings 14:24, 15:12, and 22:46).
i. Homosexual practice truly is an abomination in our present culture. 43% of homosexuals say that they have had 500 or more sexual partners in their lifetime. Only 1% of homosexuals say they have had four or less sexual partners in their lifetime.
ii. Homosexuals seem to specialize in anonymous sex with no emotional commitment. At one time, London AIDS clinics defined a woman as promiscuous if she’d had more than six partners in her lifetime. They gave up trying to apply a workable definition to male homosexuals when it became clear that they saw almost no homosexual men who had less than six sexual partners a year.
b. It is an abomination: This command is commonly objected to on the grounds that one was born - or created - with homosexual desires. “I was born this way; God made me a homosexual. It is my nature to be homosexual; it would be against my nature to be heterosexual.”
i. The problem is that the Bible says we are all sinners by nature; not a single person is born without an attraction to sin in some way or another. We should not say that God made the homosexual; we could say that Adam did, when he passed on the effects of his rebellion to the entire human race.
ii. Our inborn attraction to sin justifies nothing. The one who practices homosexuality can no more justify himself by saying “I was born this way” than can the person who hates homosexuals justify their ungodly hatred by saying “I was born this way.”
iii. Many justify homosexual practice on the basis of love. They might say, “How can it be wrong to love someone of my own sex? How can love be wrong?” Yet if someone loves their children, it does not justify sexual conduct with them. The issue isn’t love; the issue is of sexual conduct. Of course, the Bible in no way condemns love between people of the same sex, but it does say that sexual conduct between those people is sin.
6 Aug 2007.]
Lastly, Ray Stedman's more recent commentary (1995) is truly awesome because I think it helps reveal, in a conversation-like way, why the compromise being suggested by the gcma may think their movement is all about "love," but in reality, they are rejecting the responsibility of striving for holiness. This is the point that I have been trying to make about why I think that gcma may claim Jesus as their Savior, but haven't yet made Him Lord of their lives.
(Note: There are many other heterosexual sexual sins described in Leviticus. Stedman's commentary isn't only meant for homosexual brokenness, but also the various heterosexual sexual sins recorded in that book. Some people have accused me of focusing too much on homosexuality and what the Bible has to say about it. The reason is this. I don't see any "beastiality christian movements" or "adultery christian movements" or "idolatry christian movements" out there, attempting to swipe away such sins. However, the gcm is adamant about claiming that homosexual sex is not a sin (despite the indisputable fact that the Bible clearly states such acts are sin) and it is this teaching that leads people away from the saving grace and mercy of God because they are advocating clinging to the stronghold of such a sin in their lives. We wouldn't allow such a thing with the sins of murder, theft, idolatry, and adultery etc. now would we??)
So, my answer to those who claim that I, and others who comment at this blog and write blog posts about this topic at their own weblogs, are "too focused on this one subject matter" is that the crux of the matter involves false converts vs. genuine conversion. Through confession, repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice at the cross of Calvary for our sins, our Lord's propitiation for sin is applied to our souls for forgiveness of sin. In order for the Holy Spirit of God to indwell our hearts and lead us spiritually towards holiness and righteousness, we must invite the Lord Jesus Christ to reside there and allow His leading in our lives. Our part includes love, responsibility, and striving for holiness for the rest of our earthly lives. This is what ultimately leads us towards wholeness, which is, in turn, evidenced by the "fruit of the Spirit." We are admonished to walk as "children of light" and not to go back to the former "darkness" of sin that engulfed and enslaved us, previously. Notice Eph. 5:11 says that we are to "reprove them,", meaning, that when we find heretical dogma creeping in (such as the gay christian camp counselor was doing with those teens on the T.V. show), then we are supposed to speak up against it!
Eph 5:8 ¶ For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].
Excerpts from Stedman's commentary:
[G]od determines to heal man's brokenness and to make man whole again. And he knows how to do it---he says so: "I have separated you from the peoples." (Lev. 20:24) It is a process of separation. The reason we are so broken is that we are involved in a broken race. Our attitudes are wrong. Our vision of life is twisted and distorted. We believe illusions, take them to be facts, and act upon them. We are following phantoms and fantasies and delusions. So God must separate us. He has to break us loose from conformity to the thought patterns and attitudes and reactions of those around us. He has to deliver us from all that, straighten out our thinking, set our minds and hearts aright, and correct our tangled, fouled relationships.
This is a process which takes infinite patience and love, because it is voluntary---God never forces us into it. It can occur only to those who trust God enough to respond to his love.
and this:
...[r]ead the Psalms and see how much David understood of the presence and the grace of God in his life. He was a man who was healed by God. He came to understand that God was his strength and his very life, and that God could meet every need of his heart and work out all the tangled relationships in his family and in his personal life. All this is reflected in the Psalms he wrote.
Leviticus, then, is full of Christ. All the sacrifices, the rituals, and the ceremonies pictorially describe Jesus Christ and his work, and how he was available to men and women then. And as we read this book from our vantage on this side of the cross, we will learn a great deal about how Jesus Christ can meet our needs now. Therefore, this is not just a historical book. It isn't just for "news." It is a tremendously practical manual on how to live as a Christian.
and this:
[T]his is what the book of Leviticus shows us---the reasons why, the understanding of ourselves. It is designed to meet the hurt of man, just where we are. And as we learn how to accept the healing of God, it will show us what we can be.
and this:
[T]he third element is the revelation of a standard by which we can tell the difference between the true and the false, the phony and the real, the helpful and the hurtful---between death and life. Isn't it strange that man in his natural condition cannot tell the difference? That is why there are thousands and thousands of people who are doing things which they think are helpful but which end up to be very hurtful---and they do not understand why! When the results begin to come in they cry out, "What happened, what has gone wrong? Why am I in a mess like this?" It is because they could not tell the difference. So, a God of love tells us the difference. He sets forth a standard by which we can distinguish between that which is essentially hurtful and that which will actually help us.
and this:
[M]any people, looking at this, say, "Christianity is nothing but a slaughterhouse religion."
Why all this bloodshed? Because, by this means God is trying to impress us with a fundamental fact. He is telling us that the issues of our life run very deep, that they can be solved only by a death, that the basis for wholeness is a life given up, that we will never make it merely on the basis of our natural life. We must somehow discover a new kind of life. And we have to give up the old before we can have the new! That is what he is telling us. We can't have both! The struggle of the Christian life is that we keep trying to hang on to the old way of life and refuse to accept the new. This is what the blood speaks of.
and this:
The last element is an awareness of the issues at stake and their importance; of how our entire life stands in the balance at this very point, and a decision is expected of us. There is a choice that we can make. And God brings us finallyto that very place and helps us to see that in the final analysis it is entirely up to us to choose. God never says, "I'm going to make you leave your misery." Rather, he says, "If you prefer being broken and don't want to be healed, you can stay right where you are. But if you want life, then this is what is ahead." God never forces his will upon us. But he sets the choice before us, makes it very clear, and then expects a response on the basis that he has given.
and this:
[T]hat is what God is really saying to us. He sees our hurt and our heartache and our longing and our brokenness, and he says, "You're MINE!"
But that isn't all. Because of his power and wisdom, God says, with that wonderful hopefulness of a loving father, "You shall be mine---healed, made whole, with all your blemishes and deformities corrected, all your faults straightened out, all your iniquities set aside, all your tangled relationships unsnarled. You shall be whole, for I am whole." That is what this book is about, that is what the Bible is about, and that is what Jesus Christ is about.
and finally, this:
[I] don't know anything more suggestive of this activity for us than the Lord's table. This event tells us of how God, in love, began the process of healing. It portrays for us how he began to reach out to us in the cross, in the suffering of Jesus, and how he broke the power of darkness and began to set us free. Our Lord Jesus gave us this event to teach us the meaning of these ancient sacrifices: a life poured out for us, a life given up in order that we might have a new basis of living, in order that we may be his.
Ray Stedman's prayer for us all:
Prayer
Our heavenly Father, each time we come to the Lord's table, we ask you to make it very rich and meaningful to us. May we, in our mind's eye, see the Lord Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, who has broken through the sin barrier, broken through the fear barrier, and now reaches out to us in tender, forgiving, accepting, understanding love, and who offers us everything it takes to straighten out the tangled relationships of our lives. Lord, help us to understand this and to lay hold of it, to give thanks for it. We know that for many, the healing has begun and is still progressing. For some, it is just beginning. There may be some for whom it has not yet started. We pray that in your love, Lord Jesus, you will reach them and heal them. We ask it in your name, Amen.Ray Stedman quotes: Copyright (C) 1995 Discovery Publishing, a ministry of Peninsula Bible Church.
[Source: Stedman, Ray. "Leviticus: The Way to Wholeness." Discovery Publishing. Blue Letter Bible. 01 Mar 1996.
6 Aug 2007.]
Once you have accepted Christ as Saviour, you are one of God's children and once that happens then NO man can take you out of the hand of God.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. However what assurance to we have? IMHO, Remaining faithful to the authority of scripture. Your temptations do not define you in Christ..
Once you become a Christian, you cannot loose your salvation.
Yes, a True Christian. One that would not corrupt nor deny the finality and authority of scripture.
Here is something I found that may help.
Test yourself in this way. You once lived in sin and loved it. Do you now desire deliverance from it? You were once self‑confident and trusting in your own fancied goodness. Do you now judge yourself as a sinner before God? You once sought to hide from God and rebelled against His authority. Do you now look up to Him, desiring to know Him, and to yield yourself to Him? If you can honestly say “Yes” to these questions, you have repented ... And remember, it is not the amount of repentance that counts: it is the fact that you turn from self to God that puts you in the place where His grace avails through Jesus Christ.
Strictly speaking, not one of us has ever repented enough. None of us has realized the enormity of our guilt as God sees it. But when we judge ourselves and trust the Saviour whom He has provided, we are saved through His merits. As recipients of His lovingkindness, repentance will be deepened and will continue day by day, as we learn more and more of His infinite worth and our own unworthiness. (Ironside, p. 89)
Dear Christine:
ReplyDeleteYou have come a very long way over the past few years in your grace and humility. I love you my “little” sister on the West coast. You are a blessing to the one Church body.
God has blessed this writer with a joyous testimony of deliverance from more than twenty years of living in the “lifestyle” of homosexuality. There is no “life” in practicing homosexual sin. It is a path to death. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy (see JOH 10:10) our lives of all joy, true life and happiness. Homosexuality is a road to total destruction. This behavior will destroy your mind, your will and your emotions. Your very soul is heading for misery if you engage in this behavior. This writer knows, because she practiced lesbianism for more than twenty years. At the same time she practiced a “lifestyle” of drunkenness.
Who will deny the destruction caused by alcohol abuse? We see families torn apart by the sin of drunkenness. Marriages become unraveled and children can be severely damaged if one or both parents practice the sin of drunkenness. Drunkenness leads to unacceptable and inappropriate behavior in all areas of living, not just in sexual behavior. This writer was tempted to get drunk last week. Does this surprise you? It did not surprise God. Temptation is not a sin. Susan Smith is tempted when, by her own evil desire, she is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, gives birth to death (see JAM 1:14-15). Do you remember that little demon that used to sit on my shoulder and scream in my ear, “What you going to do now? What you gonna do?” The screams were louder than ever! What did I do when I heard this little imp’s voice that was not heard for so long in my mind last week?
This writer knows God and the one He sent. She has eternal life (see JOH 17:3). This writer believes the written Word of God and she knows if she abides in Him and His words abide in her, then she can ask what she desires and it will be done (see JOH 15:7). So what happened when this writer’s big SELF desired to get drunk. This writer recognized her desire as evil and she cried out to God. She returned to the cross. We are “in Him” on the Cross and He is in us with resurrection power. Are you listening? This writer knows when she comes near to God and then He will come near to her. She knows when she submits herself to God, then she is able to resist the devil and the devil will flee from her (see JAM 4:7-8). Praise His Name. My evil desire did not give birth to the fleshly sin of drunkenness (see GAL 5:21). You see, Calvary came before Pentecost. We cannot have His resurrection power to resist the power of sin in our lives until we have experienced the Cross.
This writer experiences the Cross on a daily basis. She dies every day (see 1CO 15:31). It does not hurt. We must humble ourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt us [He will lift us up and make our lives significant] (see JAM 4:10, AMP). We count ourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Jesus the Messiah (see ROM 6:11). We do this by faith. We are saved/delivered by grace thorough faith (see EPH 2:8). We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (See ROM 6:2). This writer has been crucified with the Messiah on the Cross of Calvary. My own big SELF life is dead; it is Christ who lives in me. True, my physical life goes on, but its mainspring is faith in and of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me (see GAL 2:20, Barclay). We can talk and think and live in Him every single day as we surrender our lives to the Lord on a daily basis. My friends, this is the abundant life. Do you have it? (ss)
When we add "but" to the scriptures, we are only doing ourselves a disservice, by not accepting God's word, as True and Just, primarily to make ourselves feel better. This is dangerous because we end up with a water down truth, that only leads to eternal destruction.
ReplyDeleteChristine, thanks for the thorough, well thought out and kind post. There are a lot of "shellfish" type soundbites it would be nice to eliminate once and for all.
ReplyDeleteSusan, thanks for sharing your testimony!
Hi Neil:
ReplyDeleteIt is always a privilege. God bless you. (ss)
Thank you all for your wonderful comments and Biblically based rsponses here.
ReplyDeleteMark,
Your "Test yourself" quote was just, well, perfect! And I love how the Lord worked through every believer who posted comments so far. How do I know that He is present and actively working in us and through us? A "sign of His
presence," if you will, is evident in the fact that what you posted, amplified Susan's stirring testimony of release from the bondage of sin and pursuit towards holiness in, and through, Christ.
Next, Robert shared how adding just one word, "but," to the Scriptures may make us feel better about ourselves, but the danger in that is that we end up with a watered down kind of "truth."
Isn't presenting partial truth one of Satan's favorite methods of deception? He wants to take as many people with him into his final place of eternal destruction. Many are blindly following after him into the pit.
Next, Neil "lifts me up" as a fellow brother in Christ through his very nice remarks about the post. Thanks Neil!
I just wonder whether or not anyone on the other side of the issue would ever think the same way. We haven't had any responses from them as of yet.
Neil added that "there are a lot of "shellfish" type soundbites" out there and that "it would be nice to eliminate them once and for all."
I wholeheartedly agree! I guess all we can do is keep sharing the truth.
I pray that minds will be changed towards "the mind of Christ" and away from the deception that can be inherent in focusing on "self" and "selfishness."
Susan's testimony is absolutely awe-inspiring! As I get to know her more and more, I see how, and why, God led us to our current friendship with each other, as well as our fellowship in Christ.
Susan,
What more can I say? You are a constant blessing in my life!
When you wrote:
"You have come a very long way over the past few years in your grace and humility. I love you my “little” sister on the West coast. You are a blessing to
the one Church body."
I just well up with tears...tears of joy, my friend, because guess what? It is because of people like you, who exude that mature, Christian spiritual influence on me here at this blog and in our phone conversations that God has helped me to grow!
We all need each other, don't we?
We can't even know, this side of heaven, how many additional people have been blessed through your words of life in Jesus when they come to read at this blog, Susan!
I'm sure that it must be in the thousands!
I thank God for all of you who have commented here. Each and every one has added tremendously to this blogpost. I appreciate it so much!
I just pray that what has been shared will reach those who may currently be caught up in the gcm deception. As all that has been shared here has shown, it's not a trivial matter. It's an eternal life and death issue!
How far can such a deception as the gcm heresy lead someone?
Tragically, we can read about one person who went from heresy, all the way to apostasy. The post is at Mark's ChesterStreet blog.
When Seminaries have no interest in Scriptural truth
I'm sure Mark won't mind if I re-post it here:
"[N]o matter how good [theologian Dr. Robert Gagnon's] arguments are, the conclusions he comes to are patently bigoted, so I reject them regardless of what apparent veracity they may have. Frankly, if Jesus Christ pried open the skies and leaned down into my living room right now and said 'Doug, it is a sin to be homosexual,' I'd say 'Okay Jesus, that makes things simple—I'm not Christian anymore. Now go away.'" (bold mine)
- San Francisco Theological Seminary (PCUSA) student Doug Hagler, objecting to Pittsburgh Theological Seminary professor Robert Gagnon's arguments against the compatibility of homosexual behavior with Christian practice.
Is that one of the most tragic things you have ever read? Giving up a relationship, and eternal life with the Savior of the world is better than giving up a sexual sin?
Awful. Just awful!!
False convert right there.
This hard-hearted quote reminds me of when the Bible reveals that Ishmael gave up his inheritance for a bowl of stew.
But this "theological seminary" student's attitude is a hundred times worse!
Correction!
ReplyDeleteThis hard-hearted quote reminds me of when the Bible reveals that Esau gave up his inheritance for a bowl of stew.
Gen 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red [pottage]; for I [am] faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
Gen 25:31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
Gen 25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I [am] at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
Gen 25:33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright
A temporary physical need was satisfied while a much more important long-lasting inheritance was given up by Esau.
This Turning Point email is very fitting for this thread:
ReplyDeleteRenewing the Mind
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Romans 12:2
Recommended Reading
2 Corinthians 10:1-5
The Autobiography of Martin Luther King Jr. is a book based on Dr. King's speeches and writings. "I went to high school on the other side of town," he once said, "to the Booker T. Washington High School. I had to get the bus in what was known as the Fourth Ward and ride over to the West Side. In those days, rigid patterns of segregation existed on the buses so that Negroes had to sit in the backs of buses . . . I would end up having to go to the back of that bus with my body; but every time I got on that bus, I left my mind up on the front seat. And I said to myself, ‘One of these days, I'm going to put my body up there where my mind is.'"
And he did.
Our lives always end up where our minds are. If our brain thinks depressed thoughts, dirty thoughts, or bitter thoughts, that's what we'll become. How important to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Today take every thought captive for Christ.
Our defeat or victory begins with what we think; and if we guard our thoughts, we shall not have much trouble anywhere else along the line.
Vance Havner (bold mine)
Read-Thru-the-Bible
Jeremiah 26:1 - 29:32
*******
Yes! As followers of Christ we are to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ!
2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
2Cr 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
2Cr 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
2Cr 10:6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
(NKJV)
"Everything has already been decided. It was known long ago what each person would be. So there’s no use arguing with God about your destiny. The more words you speak, the less they mean. So why overdo it? In the few days of our empty lives, who knows how our days can best be spent? And who can tell what will happen in the future after we are gone?" ~Ecclesiastes 6:10-12
ReplyDeleteI find this scripture to be a great example of somebody's motives behind their preaching. Your message sometimes comforts me, when you speak in terms of Christ and the knowledge you have. The only thing I find, is that I get lost in your many words, many scriptures and many determinations to manifest homosexuals into heterosexuals. We have to come to terms with "different beliefs", different set standards and different interpretations of the bible.
The Christians who do agree with you will usually detest the "shellfish bit"---but it's so true!
Sometimes we focus too much on a particular "sin" or flaw that we see on other people, and we automatically stop focusing on the Lord.
I do the same sometimes. I sit there defending myself from Christians who feel and believe differently than I do.
The truth is, I love you, and I respect and admire your attempt to "save me", and preach the "truth", as you see it to be.
I think your overall message is wonderful, inspiring and uplifting. Your knowledge for God is awesome and your heart for God is even better.
I pray that you'll one day see what it's like to be in my shoes or anyone else who deeply cares and loves for their partner, as you do with your husband of many years. We're not enemies of God, Christine. We love God with all of our hearts.
Let me ask you this question: If I love God, and I send many homosexuals to God, do you think that He'll reject us? Do you think He'll cast us all into hell if we come to Him? Don't we have enough faith that when we ask God into our hearts, that we'll be automatically saved? When we have God's Spirit within us----it'll direct us accordingly?
Think about it... If we're on God's side, and God's on our side, who can be against us?
The unique relationship each person develops with God is like little pieces of gold that manifest itself into mountains of gold.
The mustard seed------just one seed. That's all you need. You can move mountains!
I have faith greater than a mustard seed. You certainly do- so why don't you trust God enough that He'll direct our paths accordingly?
Maybe it's because he blesses those unions that are filled with genuine love... Promiscuity is a totally different scenario.
God bless you Christine! I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
Love,
Deb
Hi Deb,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the time to respond here. You, as a member of the "180 degree liberal side group from true, orthodox Christianity" certainly do not give up arguing for your "truth."
I need to ask you something. I've been curious about this for some time now. Are you familiar with (or, more accurately an advocate for) the Emergent-church-Brian-McLaren crowd?
The more I read your posts and comments, the more I realize that you certainly sound just like him.
Hey Christine,
ReplyDeleteNo problem about responding--just wanted to say hello & give you my 2 cents again.
I'm not apart of any "group", nor am I like any other person, besides myself. I'm unique and my relationship with God is sacred to me. I don't follow a crowd or try to be influenced by those around me. I just go by what I pray to God about and how He responds to me, as well as reading the bible.
I could also say that you sound very much like Mark and Dani, but I know that you're a different person with various ways of approaching things. You're unique and you have your own relationship with God, not necessarily following the same path as Mark and Dani- yet you all have a similar thread------"GOD". We all have that in common.
I'm not trying to provoke an argument, however, I'm trying to see if you can at least try to see what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes who feels that they are living the right path, following God, loving God, and yet, loving their spouse----whether it be male or female.
Put aside your bible, because we're both going to have different interpretations. I'm not even going to debate with you over what the bible says- because I read it and interpret much differently---not because of the "gay movement" or "gay theology"...but because I have a personal relationship with God that I solely rely on with all my heart.
Anyway, again, I don't belong to a group or follow anyone else's teachings other than God's...and He guides me in my life.
Do I trust God or people?
God bless!
The comment above was from "Deb". -------ME. Sorry!!! Maddie had her account open.
ReplyDeleteHi Deb,
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying the "Maddie" screen name. At first, I thought she was a new commenter. But when I read, "give you my 2 cents again," I got confused! Then, I noticed that the writing was similar to yours.
OK. So the similarities between the gay christian movement and the emergent church movement (via Brian McLaren) are just coincidentally very similar to your beliefs. You seem to think that your position is original and entirely different from these theological claims and ideas.
You wrote: "Anyway, again, I don't belong to a group or follow anyone else's teachings other than God's...and He guides me in my life."
That can mean several things.
First, it can mean that not only do you outrightly reject the time-honored exegesis of the Holy-Spirit-led Biblical writers; you also reject the commentaries of the scholarly theologians mentioned in my post who, for centuries, have provided biblical proofs and indisputable evidence that the Bible unequivocably states that homosexual sex between two men or two women is sin.
Does it also mean that you do not follow any of the guidance and teachings of your own church pastor?
I have another question for you. What did you think of the liberal "seminary" student's comment when he said:
" "[N]o matter how good [theologian Dr. Robert Gagnon's] arguments are, the conclusions he comes to are patently bigoted, so I reject them regardless of what apparent veracity they may have. Frankly, if Jesus Christ pried open the skies and leaned down into my living room right now and said 'Doug, it is a sin to be homosexual,' I'd say 'Okay Jesus, that makes things simple—I'm not Christian anymore. Now go away.'"
I'm curious. Would you be tempted to say the same thing to Jesus?
If Jesus said homosexuality was a sin, then I would change- even if it hurt me...but He hasn't. I follow the teachings of my church, as well as follow the teachings of the bible. Again it's all about interpretations. We see it differently....totally.
ReplyDeleteBut I appreciate your response! I'm sorry I didn't get to comment sooner--------today's been TOO long of a day!
(I need a cocktail!)
Hope you're doing well Christine!
Love,
Deb
Well that's certainly a relief to hear, Deb!
ReplyDeleteAlthough you and I may see it differently, God sees it perfectly. He has communicated it accurately and absolutely in the pages of Scripture. We can only accept it, or reject it. We don't have the authority to change the meaning of what was written just because we want it that way.
Jesus did say a lot about homosexuality in the Bible. In every Scripture that is written which refers to the original Leviticus prohibition that "a man shall not lie with a man as with a women, it is an abomination."
I have written the following before, and you have probably read it here in the past. However, for the sake of any new readers, I will post it again:
Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality. Everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (being part of the Godhead) is agreeing with all that is previously written when he proclaims to the Father, "Your word is truth".
John 1 explains that Christ was (and is) GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible. This unequivocably solidifies the inerrancy of the Bible and supports God's original proclamations in Scripture that homosexual behavior is sin and an abomination.
P.S. Your "shellfish" analogies do not work in your attempts to dismiss homosexual behavior as "not a sin" and/or "not relevant" today. Why? Because in light of all the New Testament revelations forbidding it and labeling it as a gross sin (which, unconfessed and repented of will not allow the sinner to be redeemed through Christ or to enter into the kingdom of heaven), we see that the moral prohibitions against it have never been rescinded.
Sorry I have been out of the loop for a few days. I see the debate goes on. I am very curious Christine, I have a Bible that was printed in 1947. That Bible never mentions the word "homosexual" however, my current Bible does. So, does that make the older Bible wrong. No, it just means the word "homosexual" was only introduced in the late 19th century. There is one word that is commonly mistranslated in the Hebrew Scripture. 1. qadesh - which means a male temple prostitute who engaged in ritual sex; it is often mistranslated as "sodomite" or "homosexual". So, if Jesus pried open the skies, leaned into my living room and asked me if I was a qadesh, I would certainly tell him NO! The word "homosexual" is absent from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek Text. So, when you talk about the "time-honored exegesis" and the "indisputable evidence" against homosexuals, lets keep in mind, the word does not even exist.
ReplyDeleteOh, and to respond to something you said on the other posting Christine, I have no problem having this conversation with people, and I do so in the same spirt of love that Christ has for us. I actually enjoy reading your responses. Thanks!
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteI can understand how it is when a person gets too busy to post. That has been happening to me all summer!
I'm glad to know that you "enjoy reading my responses." Most people on the other side of the issue end up labeling me a "bigot," "homophobe," "intolerant," "judgmental," etc. That usually happens when they run out of counter-arguments. It is nice to see that you are different.
Your assumptions were very nicely put, however, in the light of additional Scripture they break down entirely.
I see that you don't fall for the typical rhetoric about the term "homosexual" not being in Scripture. However, the description of the sexual act as a sin and an abomination cannot be be so easily cast aside. Even though the term was not coined until much later, the descriptive act certainly is plainly made in Leviticus.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
Later, in Leviticus, we see the capital punishment of death for such acts:
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
Today, people think that's cruel or too harsh. The fact is, David ALL SIN is worthy of the punishment of death. Other sexual sins don't get a pass, either. Any kind of sin brings us to the ultimate end of death, not only physical, but spiritual (separation from God forever) as well. It is only the confession of all sin, and repentance of the sin (like a vow determining not to continue or remain in such sin) upon the person's soul through acceptance of Jesus Christ's death on the cross in our place that serves as remission for sin.
Accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord into our lives is the only hope for salvation. It is then that the Holy Spirit can indwell the believer and lead a person to the truth of Scripture, while also guiding him/her towards God's will for their lives.
We can accept or reject the leading of the Holy Spirit. But then, we also become vulnerable to following after other "spirits" that are not of God.
Following Jesus means giving all of ourselves to Him, physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual. All else is secondary.
Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my Commandments." This includes avoiding idolatry and adultery. Homosexual behavior is a form of both. The sexual partner is more important than striving for holiness and righteous with God.
You can fill in any ANY OTHER kind of sin, too. Whenever a sin has taken hold of a person's soul and they refuse to give it up, then they are in a stronghold. This can lead to deception and refusal to see the truth about that particular state of being; mostly because the sin may be pleasurable.
A deceptive stronghold is different from backsliding. A backsliden person knows that they have sinned again, confesses and repents of that sin with the determination not to continue in a willful sinful condition. However, a deceptive stronghold keeps the person's mind, heart, body and soul in a perpetual denial of the sin they are engaging in. They would do anything (even twist Scripture) to not accept the truth about that sin...even go so far as to claim it as "holy" and a "gift from God." This is what I see happening, unfortunately, in the gay christian movement (gcm).
Hello Christine....
ReplyDeleteAh yes, the Levitical Law. Glad you brought it up. Well, lets talk about the Levitical Law. The "holiness code" that we see in Leviticus was given to the Israelites to abide by until the Messiah came and created a new covenant. This new covenant was described in Hebrews 8:6, and is "founded on better promises". The new covenant was not based on a lengthy list of what you can and cannot do, but focused instead on the heart of God's will for our lives. You yourself brought up the point that Leviticus states that "they shall surely be put to death." Does that mean you would want to see me killed? If we are to live under the Levitical law, then we need to follow EVERYTHING the law states. We cannot pick and choose which part of the law we want to follow. So, if your neighbor goes to work on the Sabbath, are you going to kill him??
The truth of the matter is, we do NOT live under the Levitical law. However, I believe that every piece of Scripture is important and we should not discard any of it. Although we do not live under the Levitical law, there are some principles that are still relevant to us today. Jesus Himself stated that the principles of the Levitical law are completely fulfilled when we carry out the great commandment to love in Matthew 22:37-40. In verse 40 it says, "upon these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets!"
You are correct. The wages of sin is death. However, if we follow the Levitical law to its completion, practically everything we do will require us to be put to death. I don't know about you, but I do not serve a God who wants me to be put to death. I believe it is exactly the opposite. Well, I need to get to bed. But I will try to write more tomorrow. Look forward to your response.
Here is a brief biblical explanation of why your argument breaks down, yet again.
ReplyDeleteJesus speaking:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Look up the definitions of the words "destroy" and "fulfil."
Add to that this verse:
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
The gcm is smack dab into "making provision for the flesh," which has already been condemned by God elsewhere in Scripture.
David, the "holiness code" as you described it has not been abandoned by Jesus' first coming. It is foundational in our faith.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
Read entire chapter here.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
ReplyDeleteMat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Consider this. If we actually lived that first commandment, then the rest of the laws would not be needed because we would not want to sin against our Lord again.
Jesus, as Messiah, was all about holiness and righteousness of God. He lived it perfectly, whereas man cannot. That is why He came as our Savior.
However, the grace and mercy of God should not be trampeled upon by those who would claim to be born again in Christ, yet willfully continue in a sin that is condemned by God. This is where we get the phrase, "God forbid" from.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
These verses make Jesus' following statements all the more clear to us:
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Again, this analysis shows where the gcm is skewed in their theology. They drastically err when they continually preach that a certain "favorite" sin (which they apparently do not want to confess or deem necessary to repent of) specifically mentioned in the Levitical Laws of the Old Testament, as well as in the writings of the apostles in the New Testament, are no longer considered sin.
I ask you David, would you do that with the sin of murder? The sin of theft? The sin of cursing God's Holy Name? The sin of adultery? The sin of idolatry? The sin of beastiality? The sin of fornication? The sin of covetedness?
I hope you would answer of course not! But what you (and all gcm advocates) are doing is that very same refusal of repentance for the sin of homosexual behavior.
Keeping the Law does not save us. The mercy, grace and love bestowed upon us by accepting Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross for our sins and the imputation of that act upon our souls for the forgiveness of sin is what saves us. Our gratefulness to Christ for his huge sacrifice should lead us to want to strive for holiness and righteousness; not inventing excuses for falling back into a prefered sinful condition (or, in the case of unrepentance in the first place, remaining separated from God forever because of that unrepentant stronghold of deception that a person is in.) What's worse is preaching a false gospel to others that makes them believe they are saved when in actuality, all they have participated in was a false conversion.
I would recommend that you read the book, "The Way of the Master" by Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. The reality of false converts is discussed in detail in that book.
Hello Christine....
ReplyDeleteI understand what you have said up to this point. However, you have still not addressed the last issue I brought up concerning the Levitical law. You have once again turned this entire conversation towards one issue. Homosexuality. I will address some other things in the next post, however I will just pose one simple question to you tonight, since I really need to get to bed. Everything you have talked about is concerning the "homosexual lifestyle". So, what if someone was gay and celibate. What would your issue be with that?
David,
ReplyDeleteThe answer I gave was a direct answer to your illegitimate claim that the Levitical Laws no longer apply once we accept Christ as Savior. I have quoted several Scriptures to show how (and where) you have erred on this matter.
It isn't only about homosexual sin. All sin can be applied here. Since this is the topic that you want to discuss further, we are concentrating on that particular issue (and sin.)
You asked, "So, what if someone was gay and celibate. What would your issue be with that?"
David, it really doesn't matter what my issue would be with that. What matters is what God's opinion is, and what God's Word says about a behavior that you apparently embrace and refuse to recognize as sin.
I could say, "David, you are a wonderful person and I think that God knows that about you so it doesn't matter if you don't think that homosexual sex is sinful. You go right ahead and continue believing as you do and God will understand."
Would I be sharing biblical truth with you if I made that statement?
Answer: No!
It may be what you want to hear from conservative, bible-based Christian believers, but, unfortunately, we can't do that and be true to God's Word at the same time.
About you last question:
"... what if someone was gay and celibate."
May I assume that you don't perceive "gayness" and the sexual act of homosexual behavior as one all-encompassing thing?
Many of the ex-gays that I have spoken with have told me that once they were born again in Christ, they first left homosexual behavior, then separately, succeeded at leaving behind the perceived homosexual identity.
I can't know if it is the same for every person who has self-identified as homosexual. However, I do know that the Bible condemns the sexual act of homosexual sex. The identity is another subject entirely.
Those who have left the behavior and then the identity have told me that it took a period of sanctification to leave the identity. Perhaps someone may be able to come along and clarify this better for you.
Remaining celibate, though self-identifying as a "gay" person may not be considered sinful per se, but may keep the person in a constant dynamic of temptation.
This is only a guess from me because I have not gone through such an experience (as a heterosexual woman).
Again, perhaps an ex-gay individual might want to get into this discussion and add much more to the conversation here.
I do know that Jesus declared that God, "made them male and female." Homosexuals aren't created by God. God is not the author of confusion. But we do know that the enemy of our souls most definitely is an author of confusion.
Hello Christine....
ReplyDeleteI am very glad to hear you admit some of the things in your last posting that you admitted. I am sure it was difficult for you. The part I am referring to is:
"Remaining celibate, though self-identifying as a "gay" person may not be considered sinful per se, but may keep the person in a constant dynamic of temptation."
I was very impressed to hear you admit this. But I also think you hit another nail on the head.
"This is only a guess from me because I have not gone through such an experience (as a heterosexual woman)."
I think this was a very profound statement you made. You never have gone through the experience I have had. I have always know that I was gay. As far back as my first memories (Kindergarten/1st grade) I have always know that I was attracted to men of the same sex. I have NEVER in my entire life been attracted. to women. Of course at an early age I had no idea what it was called. But I knew I was different. I cannot believe that when I was in kindergarten that Satan was already planning out my life of sin.
I would also like to know what your thoughts are on intersex individuals? Just incase you are unfamiliar, I have referenced one of my online medical journals. This is not a made up thing, but real difficulties that people face:
"Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries).Intersex can be divided into four categories:
• 46, XX Intersex
• 46, XY Intersex
• True Gonadal Intersex
• Complex or Undetermined Intersex
Each one is discussed in more detail below. NOTE: In many kids the cause of intersex may remain undetermined, even with modern diagnostic techniques.
46, XX Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male. This usually is the result of a female fetus having been exposed to excess male hormones before birth. The labia ("lips" or folds of skin of the external female genitals) fuse, and the clitoris enlarges to appear like a penis. Usually this person has a normal uterus and Fallopian tubes. This condition is also called 46, XX with virilization. It used to be called female pseudohermaphroditism. There are several possible causes:
• Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (the most common cause).
• Male hormones (such as testosterone) taken or encountered by the mother during pregnancy.
• Male hormone-producing tumors in the mother. These are most often ovarian tumors. Mothers who have children with 46, XX intersex should be checked unless there is another clear cause.
• Aromatase deficiency. This one may not be noticeable until puberty. Aromatase is an enzyme that normally converts male hormones to female hormones. Too much aromatase activity can lead to excess estrogen (female hormone); too little to 46, XX intersex. At puberty these XX children, who had been raised as girls, may begin to take on male characteristics.
46, XY Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female. Internally, testes may be normal, malformed, or absent. This condition is also called 46, XY with undervirilization. It used to be called male pseudohermaphroditism. Forming normal male external genitals depends on the appropriate balance between male and female hormones; therefore, enough requires the adequate production and function of male hormones. 46, XY intersex has many possible causes:
• Problems with the testes. The testes normally produce male hormones. If the testes do not form properly, it will lead to undervirilization. There are a number of possible causes for this, including XY pure gonadal dysgenesis.
• Problems with testosterone formation. Testosterone is formed through a series of steps where each requires a different enzyme. Deficiencies in any of these enzymes can result in inadequate testosterone and produce a different syndrome of 46 XY, intersex. Different types of congenital adrenal hyperplasia can fall in this category.
• Problems with using testosterone. Some people have normal testes, make adequate amounts of testosterone, but still have 46, XY intersex.
• 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. People with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency lack the enzyme needed to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). There are at least 5 different types of 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. Some of the babies have normal male genitalia, some have normal female genitalia, and many have something in between. Most change to external male genitalia around the time of puberty.
• Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). This is the most common cause of 46, XY intersex. Here the hormones are all normal, but the receptors to male hormones don't function properly. There are over 150 different defects that have been identified so far, that each cause a different type of AIS. AIS has also been called testicular feminization.
True Gonadal Intersex. Here the person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This might be in the same gonad (an ovotestis) or the person might have one ovary and one testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous, or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.
Complex or Undetermined Intersex. Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX -- both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y.
So, now that I have touched on this issue, how do these people know if they are gay or straight? How do these people know if they should like guys or girls? Just wanted to get your opinion on this. Look forward to hearing your response.
Oh
ReplyDeletemy
gosh David!
Talk about overkill!
Look. I am not a medical doctor. I have heard of intersex people. I may not understand the entire plight that they are under, but I do think that you are mixing "apples and oranges" as the saying goes.
The Bible identifies people who are eunuchs. Whether it is by choice, medical procedure or by a "freak of nature" that they are the way they are, the fact is that we all live in a fallen world. Sin has permeated everything and everyone; whether it is a sexual problem, or any other sin problem. Scripture tells us that even the "whole creation groans for redemption." That just about covers everything...don't you think?
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
If you read the entire chapter of Romans 8 (NKJV), you will see (and hopefully realize) that as born again believers in Christ, we are to "mortify the deeds of the body" and not "live after the flesh."
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
What you have presented is scientific reasoning as to why some people have,
Homosexual behavior has nothing to do with that anomaly.
But I do see where you are trying to go with this. You want to make a case for homosexuals "being born that way." Sorry. There is no scientific evidence of that.
I'm not here to debate the sexual anomalies that you have brought up and then stand by and watch you try to equate such findings as an excuse to continue in homosexual behavior while claiming to be a Christian. That will, ultimately, be a subject between you and God.
What I do know is that God's Word forbids homosexual sex between two men or two women. Period. End of story. People can twist, rearrange, argue, debate, eliminate certain verses, skew the meaning of certain verses all in an effort to make Scripture say what they desire it to say to satisfy their own fleshly desires (and, therefore, their own consciences).
However, to me it would be like trying to convince someone that murder is not sin, either. God's Word has the last say on the matter.
The question remains as to whether or not you (or any other gcm advocate) will humble themselves and admit they are wrong about gay sexual behavior or not. It is a choice that you will have to make and come to terms with during your earthly existence.
Just like a heterosexual person who claims to be a Christian yet continues to think he/she is not sinning when cheating through adulterous liasions with others; they will have to one day answer to Christ for their actions. I can't speak to that situation. It is one that is between God and each, separate, individual.
However, I can speak to the heretical lies that the gcm is spreading through a false gospel as they try to mold Jesus Christ, and belief in Him into their "own image" It is not only a form of adultery, but even worse, a form of idolatry.
Saying, believing and preaching that gay sex is O.K. with God and need not be repented of for entrance into the kingdom of heaven is a lie from Satan himself, David. I pray that you will one day be released from this deceptive stronghold in your life.
Meanwhile, if I were you I would be careful sharing heretical ideology with others and thus leading them away from reconcilation with God. That has eternal consequences attached to it and I sincerely hope that you wouldn't want those people who were led astray (by your heretical ideas) to miss heaven because of it.
Oops. One sentence got cut off. Here is what I meant to write:
ReplyDeleteWhat you have presented is scientific reasoning as to why some people have,
unfortunately, been born intersexed.
My name is Daniel. After reading many of the posts here I find myself wanting to respond with many ideas. So many I am not entirely sure I can sort them out to make this clear. This is my attempt (sorry if this is rather long).
ReplyDeleteAs a person who is dealing with my sexual orientation I have spent a lot of time thinking these issues over. I want to be as objective as possible. I love Jesus, the bible, and also people. Let me say as a sinner and a Christian my heart is heavy for men and women sorting through their sexuality. It is physically taxing, emotionally draining, and spiritually significant!
It seems to me when this issue has been addressed in history prior to the late 19th century the first explanation for rejection was natural law. In other words because of the empirical nuisances of same sex relationships it could not be morally right. However, as this unfolded we began to see that there are many anomalies in nature. So often we find in nature events that break the rules. The same was true when we began to study sexuality. While it is true there is not a “gay” gene, it is true that there are diff. chemical relationships between many individuals that live active homosexual life styles and those that do not. Because of socio-biological experiments we can not count on nature to wholly answer this question. Either side can use research to justify their opinion; therefore empirical data can only aide us in a resolution.
If this is true then I believe we could agree that our senses and biology can not be trusted to conclusively answer this question. Jesus demonstrates this by breaking the laws of nature, most significantly the laws of death!!!
I find that when you look at both sides of the coin there continually is a matter of biblical interpretation. Since interpretation is essentially observations made from reading scripture and applying an opinion based on those observations…interpretation is essentially a matter of logic. If this is the case then understanding God would be based largely on ones intellectual capability. I am sure no one would say that those who are academic are closer to God then those who are less astute. We would agree that it is a matter of grace, not works…praise God!!! This is not to say that academic endeavors are vain…certainly not. They are a valuable aid in understanding good news, but they are not the heart of God.
I often get distressed when I read different thoughts and opinions from those before me. In all queries into the heart of God from the origin of life to the present you find new perspectives emerge. The theology of the modern day conservative while rooted in predecessors much more intelligent than any of us is quite different depending on the time it was written. So an evangelical today is practicing daily living activities that would be wildly gross to an evangelical that lived one hundred years ago. The same is true for the more liberal side. Therefore on one side Leviticus law is used as a reason for homosexuality as sin, and the other side as a reason for it being not explicitly sin. This observation leads me to conclude that the answer to this question can not be based solely on interpretation.
If this is true then I believe we would all agree that interpretation of our own and those before us only aides in an internal relationship established with God. It does not establish it! Jesus being the greatest mind of all time demonstrates this in his rebuke of the academic establishments. Equating knowledge of him to be more easily understood by ignorant children then masters of theology, ethics, and mores.
I find this to be ever so humbling when it comes to taking strong stances in my views of sexuality and spirituality. I have been conditioned to trust first what I see, hear, taste, ect, secondly, to trust my interpretation of it. My mind I have so often trusted even though my experience shows my logic to fall apart, my opinions to be ever so effected by my mood, and my imagination to be manipulated by circumstance.
Jesus help me!!! Who/what shall I trust???
I believe it is to trust in Jesus, but when I am so easily swayed by my mind, circumstance, and senses…what does that mean? I have often contemplated the “sermon on the mount” and marveled at the realization that Christ calls me to him. And this call was not physically witnessed by me, nor did I come to it by reason. It was an inward look!?!
As I have attempted to walk with my savoir into the chaos of my untamed spirit I find that empirical reality and logic do very little. They have helped materialize my sorting spirit through word and action. However, my thoughts and actions are only caused by the first effect in my heart.
What I have discovered in the sorted chaos of my spirit as it pertains to sexuality is this. I have a desperate desire for intimacy with men! And that is ok!! All men desperately desire intimate relationships with each other!!! I see this all the time when men get together. Whether it is at a local sport pub, gay bar, or prayer meeting, men love being around other men…almost. We all know men that are intimidated by other men. In the video that was discussed on the other blog there was a common theme amongst the young boys. When Pastor Jay was with the boys they confessed that being around other men made them nervous, they had been rejected by their male peers, and almost all of them made friends much more easily with girls.
When I was in college I desperately wanted to know if I was a man. I remember thinking what does it mean to be a man? And how to I get from a boy to a man? Having shared many experiences of rejection from males at an early age…I thought if I was a man other men would want to be around me. I knew they didn’t! And yet I was willing to do anything to get other men to want to be around me. I realized at some point we were all doing this…some of us through sports, others through girls and sex, and others through men and sex. It was so easy to walk into a gay bar look at the first man I saw and immediately get him to want to be around me…all it takes is a little sex. I later realized that this was not satisfying intimacy …and remember I know I want intimacy.
I decided I would try a relationship with a wonderful male. As I grew to love and respect him as a male our sex life began to grow increasingly frustrating. I found that I was having physical and mental problems trying to view him as a sexually intimate partner. You see my love for him caused me to want to aide in his masculinity not take from it.
As I began to study the ideas that surrounded Paul’s concepts of marriage, likening it to Christ and the church, I became increasingly aware of the metaphorical use as a picture of the gospel. When Paul walks us through a relationship of a husband he likens it to the head of a body. My head is where I process info, interpret my circumstance, run the rest of my body, and plan my future. I see it as a visionary leader, strong enough to have confidence in decisions, but smart enough to know it will not work without my body/heart. As a man in a relationship with another man I began to try and construct a theory of how this would work between two men.
I know I have loved a man, fought injustices and tackled great fears with a man. But I could not make a body out of two heads. I know that two heads are better than one…as the saying goes…but when was the last time you saw two heads do much good without a pair of hands, legs, and a heart.
I know that we often think of homosexuality in terms of love between two people, but so many men love each other with out sex. I am beginning to believe that homosexuality is sin. By sin I do not mean fire and brimstone, but rather something that causes our spirit to move outward. If we focus outwardly, rather than inwardly, we are sure to miss the presence of God. I have yet to see Jesus face to face.
From what I have observed in my life and others in and out of the gay community, it distracts me from my inward journey with Jesus. If I am just sexual I find I begin to be outwardly driven focusing on my appearance and the appearance of others. If I am sexual and trying to be intimate I find myself stuck in my head and no body to support me, no heart to keep me strong. Fundamentally homosexuality seems to be a manipulation of such a good thing (love between two men) to becoming a distraction from the good news that Jesus conquered death, asks you to go with him into the recesses of your dark and chaotic heart, so that you come out alive and ready to lose yourself in Him.
The biggest obstacle I face in questioning my sexuality is marriage (intimate long term relationships). I truly believe that God made us masculine and feminine, and while there are great varieties of the way that plays out in action, it is ever so entwined into my biology, logic, and heart. I can understand why it can seem so unreal for a gay person and myself to once again question their sexual identity. There is so much grace, goodness, and holiness to be found in relationships with persons of the same sex. But can two bodies make a head, or two heads make a body?
As we wrestle with these issues I pray we are gentle (not on the middle of the fence), to each other. There is more than an opinion when it comes to the heart.
Daniel...
ReplyDeletePlease send me an email sometime. I would love to talk to you more in depth. My email is flyboihou at gmail.com.
Hello Christine....
ReplyDeleteWell, I do apologize. I seem to have hit a nerve here. There are lots of things here I could address, but I am only going to address some key things that you said in your last posting. First thing......
You said:
"I'm not here to debate the sexual anomalies that you have brought up and then stand by and watch you try to equate such findings as an excuse to continue in homosexual behavior while claiming to be a Christian. That will, ultimately, be a subject between you and God."
I am not "claiming" to be a Christian...I AM a Christian. I have accepted Christ as my personal Saviour. I have accepted His free gift of Salvation. I have asked Him to come into my life and to be honest with you, my walk with Christ has NEVER been stronger than it is today. Quite frankly, I take great offense to you sitting here saying to me that I am "claiming" to be a Christian. You have no idea of my history, what God has brought me through, and where He is taking me. So, I would appreciate if you would refrain from using this terminology with me or any other person you ever talk to. Because I could very easily turn right back around and say that you are "claiming" to be a Christian, and I would certainly never do that.
You said:
"Saying, believing and preaching that gay sex is O.K. with God and need not be repented of for entrance into the kingdom of heaven is a lie from Satan himself, David. I pray that you will one day be released from this deceptive stronghold in your life."
Obviously, our definitions of Salvation are two different things. What you just told me here is that if I am gay, I will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is so far from the truth that I just don't know what to say. I was released from ALL my sin when Christ hung on that cross and cried out.."IT IS FINISHED!!" Praise GOD for the gift of His Son. When Christ died, every sin that you or I have ever committed was FORGIVEN!! It was washed away under the blood of the holy Lamb of God And if you read Romans 10:9
"...the word of faith we are proclaiming that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED! For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved!"
Our Salvation has NEVER been dependent on whether or not we sin. After many, many nights of being physically ill and coming to our Father and grappling with the fact that I was gay, He finally gave me peace. He gave me the Peace that passes all understanding. We will certainly differ in our interpretation of Scripture. And if I am wrong, then I, and only I, will answer for that. Just like you will answer for everything that you have done. Sin is sin. There is no difference. There are no varying degrees of sin. One sin is not any worse than any other. There is NOTHING we can do to be cleansed of our sin than to accept HIS free gift. I know I have sinned in my life, and I know there are probably things I have not asked for forgiveness for. However, that is the beauty of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. If we accept him as our Saviour then our sins are washed away!! I am not saying that we should become a Christian and go out and murder a bunch of people. Christ will also hold his children accountable. I firmly believe that if you are a child of God, and you are openly living a sinful life, with no repentance in sight, then I believe that God will take his children home.
And last but not least.....
You said:
"Meanwhile, if I were you I would be careful sharing heretical ideology with others and thus leading them away from reconcilation with God. That has eternal consequences attached to it and I sincerely hope that you wouldn't want those people who were led astray (by your heretical ideas) to miss heaven because of it."
The only people who will miss heaven are those who have not accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. PERIOD! The ONLY reconciliation with God is to accept His free gift of Salvation. That is how we reconcile with Christ! My message to people is a very simple message. Christ told us very clearly in Mark to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." That is not my "heretical idea". THAT is the great commandment!!
Well, I have stayed up way past my bedtime now, but as you can see, I am very passionate about the Gospel of Christ.
Hello Daniel,
ReplyDeleteWelcome to Talkwisdom! Sorry for the delay in replying, it's just that I have been extremely busy the last few days.
Thank you for your heartfelt comment. I can tell that this is a very sensitive subject for you. I want to give your comment my full attention, so I will reply very soon when I have more time.
David,
You are right. This topic always touches the nerves of those who are engaged in it and on opposite sides of the argument. This is probably why a majority of Christians just avoid it altogether.
I want to give your comment my full attention as well. Perhaps I can bring both of your comments up to a new blogpost later today and reply then.
One thing I want to clear up immediately. I am not saying that you are not a Christian, David. The truth is, only God and the individual person knows for sure. However, we ALL can claim to be something...including a Christian, without truly being one. That's just a sad fact in this fallen world.
You could say the same thing back to me, for instance, and I wouldn't be offended. What I would do next is back up my beliefs with the truth from Scripture.
When I make statements like that, I am trying to point out where a person's theology does not match up with what Scripture says. The Bible is the "plumb line" in determining truth from error. If we didn't have the absolute truth of the Bible to rely on, then anyone could skew Christian belief in any direction he/she chooses. When that (unfortunately) happens, heresy and apostasy come creeping in to negatively change true, Biblically based Christian theology.
You wrote:
The only people who will miss heaven are those who have not accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. PERIOD! The ONLY reconciliation with God is to accept His free gift of Salvation. That is how we reconcile with Christ! My message to people is a very simple message. Christ told us very clearly in Mark to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." That is not my "heretical idea". THAT is the great commandment!!
I do not see any need for the act of repentance in your statement. So I must ask you, what part does confession and repentance of sin play in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Hello Christine.....
ReplyDeleteChristianity Today I think wrote one the best definition of the Gospel that I have ever seen:
"The Gospel of Jesus Christ is news, good news: the best and most important news that any human being ever hears.
This Gospel declares the only way to know God in peace, love, and joy is through the reconciling death of Jesus Christ the risen Lord.
This Gospel is the central message of the Holy Scriptures, and is the true key to understanding them.
This Gospel identifies Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Israel, as the Son of God and God the Son, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, whose incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension fulfilled the Father's saving will. His death for sins and his resurrection from the dead were promised beforehand by the prophets and attested by eyewitnesses. In God's own time and in God's own way, Jesus Christ shall return as glorious Lord and Judge of all (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 25:31-32). He is now giving the Holy Spirit from the Father to all those who are truly his. The three Persons of the Trinity thus combine in the work of saving sinners.
This Gospel sets forth Jesus Christ as the living Savior, Master, Life, and Hope of all who put their trust in him. It tells us that the eternal destiny of all people depends on whether they are savingly related to Jesus Christ."
The Gospel literally means "Good News"! To address your question concerning confession and repentance. Confession and repentance are key to our core beliefs as Christians. 1 John 1:9 tells us....
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
However, confession is not a prerequisite to salvation. Christ wants us to accept His free gift of Salvation. At which point (1 John 2:1b)
"But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
But before we have accepted Christ as Saviour it does not really matter if we confess our sin. Who would we be confessing to? Once we become children of God, we then have a mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. At which point we can ask for forgiveness, knowing that we are already forgiven! Salvation is based on acceptance of a free gift, and acknowledging that we are sinners and need a Saviour. I like to use a great example here....do we have to clean up to take a bath?? The answer is no.
David wrote:
ReplyDeleteBut before we have accepted Christ as Saviour it does not really matter if we confess our sin. Who would we be confessing to? Once we become children of God, we then have a mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus. At which point we can ask for forgiveness, knowing that we are already forgiven! Salvation is based on acceptance of a free gift, and acknowledging that we are sinners and need a Saviour. I like to use a great example here....do we have to clean up to take a bath?? The answer is no.
David, do you know what first words were that were uttered by Jesus Christ when he began his ministry on earth?
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Jesus didn't just say "confess." He said Repent!
Let's look at the definitions of those two words.
Confess:
con·fess /kənˈfɛs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-fes] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to acknowledge or avow (a fault, crime, misdeed, weakness, etc.) by way of revelation.
2. to own or admit as true: I must confess that I haven't read the book.
3. to declare or acknowledge (one's sins), esp. to God or a priest in order to obtain absolution.
4. (of a priest) to hear the confession of (a person).
5. to acknowledge one's belief or faith in; declare adherence to.
6. to reveal by circumstances.
–verb (used without object) 7. to make confession; plead guilty; own: to confess to a crime.
8. to make confession of sins, esp. to a priest.
9. (of a priest) to hear confession.
Repent:
re·pent1 /rɪˈpɛnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-pent] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object) 1. to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act.
2. to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.
–verb (used with object) 3. to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another.
4. to feel sorry for; regret: to repent an imprudent act.
[Origin: 1250–1300; ME repenten < OF repentir, equiv. to re- re- + pentir to feel sorrow (< L paenitére to regret, be sorry); see penitent]
—Related forms
re·pent·er, noun
re·pent·ing·ly, adverb
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006
Repentence takes "confession" one step further...the regret leads one to desire to turn away from previous acts of sin and be disposed to change one's life for the better.
pen·i·tent /ˈpɛnɪtənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pen-i-tuhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. feeling or expressing sorrow for sin or wrongdoing and disposed to atonement and amendment; repentant; contrite.
–noun 2. a penitent person.
3. Roman Catholic Church. a person who confesses sin and submits to a penance.
[Origin: 1325–75; ME < ML pénitent-, L paenitent- (s. of paeniténs), prp. of paenitére to regret; r. ME penaunt < AF; see penance]
Your explanation and view is missing these all important points when it comes to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
The incomplete gospel that you espouse leads to an incomplete surrender to Christ and His atoning death on the cross for our sins.
Hey Christine1
ReplyDeleteSorry i am years behind on commenting but i only just found this blog and read most of the comments and i have a question for you.....do you take/interpret all of the scripture at face value like you do with Leviticus 18:22?
If so how hard is it for you to live your life with all of those restrictions the Bible has? I mean in Leviticus alone we are given tons and tons of do not and eat not and this is bad and that is an abomination.
Thanks for reading
Your Brother in Christ
Tim