Monday, July 30, 2007

Gay christian camp?

Hi Everyone,

I regret not having the time to post lately. I have been very busy trying to find a small home, townhouse or condo for my daughter and two roommates to rent for the upcoming semester at college. At times, it has been like a mini-twilight-zone type nightmare!

Saturday morning, we did find the perfect place! It was so cute, reasonably priced, and in a quiet and safe neighborhood. But with a dozen applicants (who applied earlier than we did) there was a one in twelve chance that we would get it. Yesterday afternoon, we received the phonecall that we weren't chosen. We were so disappointed!! The place would have been perfect!! Arrgghhh!!

Well, we are trusting God to help lead us to find an even better place! We must remain diligent in our search, continue to be prayerful and most of all be patient!

On to today's post.

I don't normally watch the LOGO channel on cable. But as I was flipping through the channels on Saturday evening, a show description on that channel caught my eye. It read, "gay christian camp." I decided to watch it to find out whether or not the things presented to these teens would be Biblically accurate or not.

I didn't get to see the entire program, but it will be re-broadcast. If you get that channel, here is a brief description and the dates and times:

Camp Out

If it isn't hard enough being a gay teenager in the midwest, imagine being a gay Christian teen. With the derision of society, family and the church against them, ten gay Christian teenagers struggle to confront the questions of faith and their burgeoning sexuality in light of what their church and Christian society has told them....
Date Time

Mon 07/30 4:30 PM

Thu 08/02 11:00 AM

Sat 08/04 7:00 PM
What Christian society has told them? Society? Not what the Bible, God's Word has told them?? Sheesh!!

There was a lot that disturbed me about the portions of the program that I viewed.

1. The pastor camp counselor had placed a large wooden cross in the campground and had the students write down a bad memory. The teens read them out loud, taped the pieces of paper to the cross, and the counselor burned them on that cross! Does this sound right to anyone out there reading this??

2. Prior to that exercise, the counselor told the teens that Jesus came to earth to "change things." There was no explanation of why he went to the cross at Calvary. There was no explanation that Jesus died for their sins. There was no salvation message or sinners prayer presented. Does anyone else reading this see something inherently wrong with this scenario?

3. Prior to that, the pastor simply invited the students to stand in the lake and have water sprinkled on their heads in a kind of pseudo-baptism. It appeared to me that only some of the students were willing to do that.

4. I can't recall the names of the teens (should have written them down) but if you go here I will describe which person I am talking about. The young man, fourth from the right with the glasses was the only teen (in the portion I watched) who wanted to get out the Bible and have devotion time. He was also disturbed that many of the other teens "only wanted to talk about sex" and he was upset when they started playing "truth or dare."

5. I didn't see prayers of thankfulness at meal time (again, I may have missed it because I didn't see the entire show), very little time spent on Bible study, and very little mention of Jesus Christ.

6. The pastor/counselor made a big deal about his "consecration as a pastor." It was very "me" (meaning, "him") oriented rather than giving praise and thanks to the Lord.

Update @ 9:07 a.m. :

Just found this quote and it reminded me of this pastor's "me centered" video of his "consecration." -

“It is a very ill omen to hear a wicked world clap its hands and shout well done to the Christian man.”- Charles Spurgeon.

Woo Hoo!! Is that a powerful quote or what???

The concern being shared in that quote is similar to a question that I have presented (several times) to a self-identified lesbian christian woman:

Doesn't it bother you that the gay christian movement beliefs are just like the secular humanistic worldview?

What do I get in answer to such a question?


Many of these kids really need the REAL, TRUE Biblically accurate presentation of the Gospel of Christ; not some watered-down, "it's all about me" (them) pep talk which dismisses what the Bible truly says about homosexual behavior.

Purposely sending them in the wrong direction like this is wrong!! Wrong in so many ways!!

If you happen to be of the mindset that doesn't really matter...a little compromise won't make a difference...then I invite you to think AGAIN! Go over and read about the MCC "church" allowing its members to opt out of belief in Jesus.

These are just a few of the concerns that I saw (and can recall so early this morning!), but I plan to watch it again and give more details. If anyone out there saw the show and would like to comment, please do. I hope to improve this post with much more information later.


Neil said...

How awful! I know the guy who runs Logo. We worked together a long time ago. He was very bright and funny but has used his talents for evil things like MTV and Logo.

Christinewjc said...

Do you remember much about him? Wow...he holds the "double whammy" responsibility for promotion of blatant sexual sin on two channels!

Where and when did you work with him?

What's weird about this is the fact that nothing which would vaguely resemble true Christianity is promoted on MTV. I doubt that logo had heretofore allowed the Divine foot in the door, either. The broadcast of this first gay "christian" camp appears to be a not-so-subtle attempt to blur the lines between this heretical, secularized, humanistic-type of pseudo-christianity while using these confused teens in an effort to bash true Biblical Christianity.

How shameful!!

Robert Bayn said...

It was very "me" (meaning, "him") oriented rather than giving praise and thanks to the Lord.

Of course it was, the GLBT community is really the community that is all about me.

What kinda of sexual fulfillment can I have,

who will notice Me

Christians hate me

I'm oppressed

That's why, when you suggest that Jesus is the Lord of your life, they often cringe. I had a friend, who went nuts when I said this, the very idea of devoting ones life to God, and not myself, bugged him.

No shock here.

Christinewjc said...

Hi Robert,

Welcome to Talkwisdom! I have appreciated your comments here.

Your friend's reaction is, unfortunately, typical of those whose commitment to Christ only goes "just so far." I have conversed with countless people who claim Christ as their Savior, yet refuse to acknowledge him as Lord of their lives. Now we know why that Bible says:

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I have just updated my original post.

Update @ 9:07 a.m. :

Just found this quote and it reminded me of this pastor's "me centered" video of his "consecration." -

“It is a very ill omen to hear a wicked world clap its hands and shout well done to the Christian man.”- Charles Spurgeon.

Woo Hoo!! Is that a powerful quote or what???

The concern being shared in that quote is similar to a question that I have presented (several times) to a self-identified lesbian christian woman:

Doesn't it bother you that the gay christian movement beliefs are just like the secular humanistic worldview?

What do I get in answer to such a question?


Christinewjc said...

The fact that the MCC church is now allowing its members to "opt out of belief in Jesus" would lead us to think that the gay christian movement has more in common with secular humanism (if not downright atheism) than with true Biblical Christianity.

At the end of Biola Connections excellent article called Atheism's New Bulldog about Sam Harris' book "Letter to a Christian Nation", there are some important points made about morality.

Unlike the Bible, atheism can’t even provide a basis for morality, according to Craig. If God doesn’t exist and people are animals — or if they are just highly evolved machines for replicating DNA, as Dawkins and Dennett claim — then there aren’t such things as right and wrong, Craig said. Animals and machines don’t have moral duties, he added.

And this means the things Harris calls “barbaric” — like religious intolerance and rules against homosexuality — can’t be wrong, according to his own beliefs.
“There’s a terrible contradiction at the heart of these fellows’ views. It’s bizarre to me they don’t see this contradiction,” Craig said.

The Waging War

Despite the chinks in Harris’ armor, he continues to recruit troops for his war on religion.
But he admits — in Letter to a Christian Nation — that “the prospects for eradicating religion in our time do not seem good.”
Still, Harris remains hopeful, saying that slavery, like belief in God, was once an entrenched institution.

But Geivett points out that emotions and personal biases can always cloud people’s judgments, even smart people like Harris.
“Serious-minded intellectuals are just as susceptible as others to their gut reactions and their preferences,” Geivett said, “and they build a rationale for how they would like the world to be.”

And that is EXACTLY what the gay christian movement is all about...they are susceptible to their gut reactions and their preferences...and they build a rationale for how they would like the world to be rather adhering to Jesus Christ or doing "the will of God Who is in heaven!"

Jaded said...

Opt out of belief in Jesus? Burning things on the cross? Sitting around talking about sex during a Christian camp?

Unbelievable. I honestly can't believe that anyone who calls themselves a Christian would be ok with this.

Christinewjc said...

I can't claim that every person who self-identifies as gay or lesbian believes in "opting out of belief in Jesus." However, it is a choice given by the MCC church (according to the gcm watch post about it.)

But the other two examples were definitely being used by the counselors at that camp.

Jaded, this is why people like me, DL Foster, Neil, Mark, and others are sounding the "alarms" about this gay christian movement shift away from the cross of Christ into their self-worship and "its all about me" mentality.

I know that it upsets you that it may appear that gays and lesbians are "targeted" more than other groups. The reason for this is because it is such a stronghold on the hearts, minds, souls and spirits of these people. The non-Biblical heresy that is occuring during this time in history is unmistakably obvious. Wouldn't you agree that it needs to be exposed?

Jaded said...

Christine, I'm not sure I effectively communicate my point, because it seems that in the last post where I commented and now on this one, my point was missed, at least partially.

I have just been saying that when you base entire ministries and all of your focus on one group, you miss a whole bunch of other stuff that is equally important. I would agree with you, whole heartedly, that non-Biblical heresy like you spoke about in this post needs to be exposed! Absolutely! However, I see very often that certain groups (and I'm not speaking of you here) will hammer away at one specific point, whether it be homosexuality or some other thing, at the exclusion of all other things. Is it important to expose sin? YES! Is it also important to do good works? YES! And it's important for us to speak about things like pre-marital sex, divorce, adultery, bigotry, etc etc.

I am not saying that you shouldn't speak about something that weighs heavily on your heart. I am only saying that we need to focus on more than just one issue! I have personally heard people who call themselves Christians do all sorts of things that are against what is in the Bible, but have them say "yeah but at least I'm not gay. That's worse." Is it worse? Or is all sin an abomination in God's eyes? I believe it is, and I believe we need to make sure people understand that. Another commenter said something to me before about me being uncomfortable or afraid of talking about homosexuality. I'm neither uncomfortable nor afraid. I'm just concerned that if we all focus too narrowly on one thing, we will lose sight of some other things that we need to be vigilant about as well.

The scenario you described in this post is troubling to me on every level.

On a completely different topic, I just bought a beautifully framed print for my music says "Faith makes all things possible...not easy." I think that speaks volumes.

Christinewjc said...


Perhaps I am not being clear. I apologize for that. I will try to do better with this post.

I guess I'm not getting why you think that ministries that strictly exist to help gay people to find Christ and stop homosexual behavior is not necessary. Many times, the people who have been saved by Jesus Christ and released from homosexual behavior are drawn by the Holy Spirit of God to help others out of that sinful lifestyle. For others (like myself), it was a calling that grew in stages as I was made aware of what the homosexual agenda was doing to kids in public schools. In a recent post, I discovered that this issue (which I NEVER wanted to EVER speak about and tended to just ignore) is being placed upon my heart as one of the crucial moral issues of our time. Yes, there ARE other pressing issues that need to be dealt with, and they are being addressed by Christians all over the world. But this particular issue is often so volatile that many Christians shy away from it for fear of offending anyone. Those who can shrug off the name-calling and press on against the bombardment of hate coming from pro-gay advocates are doing so out of reverence for God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. I truly believe that is the case with me.

There are ministries that primarily deal with helping the homeless. There are ministries that deal with hunger. There are ministries that deal with alcoholism/drug addiction. Why not ministries that help people out of same-sex behavior?

There are also ministries that deal with several of the problems of humanity. Lighting the Way International is one of them. They witness for Jesus Christ to the homeless, vendors, international tourists, New Age movement proponents (including psychics and tarot card readers), homosexuals etc.

On the our mission page at their website, it says:

The mission of Lighting The Way Worldwide is to expose the darkness of the clandestine invasion of the occult through the New Age Movement in America with the light of the Bible, taking the Gospel of Jesus to cultures and sub-cultures of people who are viewed as untouchables - people who have been abandoned by the church, both in America and abroad. The motive behind LTW Worldwide is compassion for lost people. Its purpose is to fulfill the Great Commission and proclaim the Truth in love.

“I simply argue that the cross should be raised at the center of the marketplaces as well as on the steeple of the church. I am recovering the claim that Jesus was not crucified in a cathedral between two candles, but on a cross between two thieves; on the town’s garbage heap; at a crossroad so cosmopolitan they had to write His title in Hebrew, and Latin, and Greek…at the kind of place where cynics talk smut, and thieves curse, and soldiers gamble. Because that is where He died, and that is what He died for, and that is what He died about. That is where church-men ought to be and what church-men ought to be about.” - George MacLeod of Scotland

Lighting The Way Worldwide takes the Gospel to the transient homeless, vendors, and international tourists of Ocean Front Walk in Venice Beach, CA, offering individuals from all classes, races, and nationalities an opportunity to ask questions where no one is turned away and Biblical answers are presented with logic and reason.

The LTW booth is located on Ocean Front Walk in tourist-oriented Venice Beach, California. This unique location offers a global reach, as people stroll the Ocean Front Walk from around the world. Stretching the entire length of Venice Beach, from Santa Monica to Marina del Rey, Ocean Front Walk is an unbelievable spiritual smorgasbord of psychics, tarot card readers, healers, mystics, Atheists United, Black Moslems, Hindus, and Buddhists. And surprisingly, LTW has the only full-time Christian apologetic booth on Ocean Front Walk.

However, there is a specific need for witnessing and ministry towards the homosexual community. As I stated in one of my first blogposts here, this kind of ministry must be the most difficult. There is so much pressure to be politically correct and tolerant these days that anyone who speaks out against homosexual behavior is unfairly labeled a bigot, homophobic, hateful and even as a criminal! The hate crimes laws that would add sexual orientation would re-label the life saving, gospel mission of Christian quoting Bible verses as "hate speech." Eventually, as had already happened in (Sweden with Pastor Ake Green)Christian evangelists would be thrown in jail for declaring the truth about the sin of homosexual behavior which, in fact, is undeniably revealed in God's Word.

I don't have a lot of time to get into it, but Bible prophecy is chock full of warnings against heresy and apostasy. I don't see people taking other sins and trying to change minds into believing that they are not really sins anymore. Adultery, stealing, idolatry, murder etc. are not sprouting up churches claiming that these sins are actually a "blessing from God," Jaded. But we do see this happening with the sin of homosexuality.

Let's take another topic and see how this would seem to you.

What if someone (or some group) wanted to create a church based on tarot card readings and/or contacting the spirits of the dark world or contacting the dead. These are sins, according to the Bible, and Christians are told not to indulge in that type of behavior or activity. Dwayna Litz (of Lighting the Way Worldwide) constantly deals with these people in her ministry; helping to persuade them away from such behavior and activity through confession, repentance, forgiveness through the cross of Christ and redemption by believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Would we call her ministry any of the negative things that you seem to think about ministries directed towards homosexuals?

Abortion is a behavior. It's one that kills a living human being in the womb. There are ministries that deal primarily with helping to persuade women to make a different choice rather than abortion.

Would you call that ministry anything negative because it is only focused on helping to prevent abortions?

I already know what your answer will probably be.

Of course not!

But for some reason, Jaded, ministries geared towards pointing out homosexual behavior as sin and encouraging people to receive Christ as Lord and Savior to begin the healing process of change bothers you.

Why is that?

I can only guess that it might be because you know several homosexuals and you don't want to upset them.

But Jesus upset A LOT of people during his three year ministry on earth! And He is perfect!!

We, as Christians have to expect opposition to any type of ministry that we would do. Why? Because Satan hates it when a person is saved by the power of the Holy Spirit in Christ!

Satan wants people to remain in their sin. Satan doesn't want people to be saved from their sins through Jesus. He will do anything in his power (which is limited) to keep a person from repenting, receiving forgiveness for their sins, and being reconciled back to God for all eternity. Satan hates such salvation activity so much, that he will persecute active ministry followers of Christ for doing the good that they do.

Want just two examples?

Take a look at Dwayna's recent blog entry, Satan must be upset.

In the international news, we have all heard of the persecution against the South Korean Christians. One pastor is already dead.

Sorry. I didn't mean to go off on such a tangent. But I'm trying to reveal to you why several of us who are posting about the gay christian movement are doing it. It's not for the purpose of bashing homosexuals (as someone we both know already has said about me)

Twisting people's minds so that they think this type of ministry is "bashing" is just another typical lie from Satan himself. The devil wants non-Christians to think that way so that they won't humble themselves and come to Christ for salvation. Satan's greatest weapon is deception. The gay churches (that preach the behavior is not a sin and doesn't need to be repented of) are steeped in deception!!

There is a verse in the book of Jude that speaks volumes (to use your phrase!) about the fact that when we recognize deception in the lives of people, we are to expose it and pull them out!

Jud 1:23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[fn5] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

David said...

Somehow I stumbled upon your blog today. I don't remember how. I don't know if you will keep this posted on your blog, but here it goes.

I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as my personal Saviour at a very young age. I am also a gay man. I never told anyone growing up because of my fear of rejection and the fear of what the church would say to me. I have known that I was gay ever since I was very young. It was not a choice. I did not wake up one day and say, "oh, I think I want to be gay today." As far back as I can remember (which is about 1st grade) I knew that I liked other men and not women. I currently work with gay and lesbian youth and aid them in their struggle between religion and homosexuality.

It really amazes me that you can sit and comment on a film you saw on LOGO, when by your own admission, you could not even take the time to watch the entire thing. I really hope you went back and watched the whole thing. I would also have to assume that the entire camp experience did not take place in 2 hours. This film only gave a glimpse of what actually happened at the camp. Let me tell you what I saw when I watched this film. I saw many youth who were hurting. I saw youth who had been let down by their churches. I saw the church turn their backs on youth because of their sexual orientation. I saw youth who had been told they are going to hell because they are gay. I saw youth who needed a place where they could come and worship God and not be judged for who they are. I saw youth, who without this camp, may have been at a place in their life where they were ready to commit suicide. Because, I can tell you from experience, I have been in that place, and it is by the grace of God that I am still alive today.

I wish I had hours and hours to respond to all the things on your blog, but unfortunately, I have had this conversation with many people and it never seems to help. So, let me just hit on a few of the high points. The "ministries" that are set up to "help" people out of their homosexual behavior are worthless. I have many kids that I have worked with that have gone to these and it drove them deeper into depression, and on the verge of suicide. Even the founder of the Exodus project, which is one of these ministries, finally admitted that the programs don't work and do more harm than good. You said in your blog that you did not want this to sound like gay bashing, which, it doesn't, however, where do you once talk about the fact that the church needs to love homosexuals? Maybe I missed it, and if I did, I apologize.

As far as the Biblical aspect is concerned...again, I don't have hours to spend, but this is what I know. I know what Scripture says about homosexuality. I know that God loves me. I know that the 2 great commandments that were given to us in the New Testament were to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and to love thy neighbor as yourself! I also know that in the Old Testament that Moses did not like homosexuals. And I would agree with you. But he also said that woman should not wear red dresses, and that you should not eat shrimp oysters or lobster, or your steak to rare. And I know that in the New Testament the apostle Paul does not like homosexuals, and I would agree. But the apostle Paul also said that woman should be silent and not speak. A woman should not have authority over a male. What would happen to our society, our school system, our mission fields and our Sunday school classes if we adhered to what Paul told us. Should we allow all of these things to collapse just because Paul was anti woman's lib? By all rights, if we were really adhering to what the Bible says, you should not even be able to post on this blog. Not only that, but Paul did not like guys with long hair, and woman with short hair. The church has conveniently forgotten about all these different things. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and not by the blood of Paul or Moses. Jesus said "come unto me ALL of you that labour and are burdened and I will give you rest!!" There is only one way to Christ, and that is through the blood of Jesus. Jesus is the hope for the world. And I will continue to help those who are homosexual and continue to help them see that Christ loves them just the way they are. I am certainly not here to argue with you, or to be mean in any way. I sincerely hope you have not been offended, and when the day is over, I am sure that we will agree to disagree. May Christ continue to bless you and your family.

Christinewjc said...

Hello David,

Welcome to Talkwisdom and thank you for posting your comments and feelings on this matter.

Yes. We will most likely have to just agree to disagree. For everything that you have said, I could give a countering Scripture verse and/or story. But with your mind made up as it appears to be, you would not be receptive to anything else I would say.

For all of the teens and adults whom you have claimed have been "hurt by ex-gay ministries," I could point to others who have been saved by repentance through faith by the shed blood of Jesus Christ at the cross. In addition to their spiritual salvation, they have also been released from the bondage of homosexual behavior and identity.

I personally know and communicate with four formerly gay/lesbian Christian brothers/sisters and their testimonies are genuine. They have repented (which means confessing and turning away from sin and now follow Jesus' admonition to live soberly, righteously and godly in this age (which means to please Holy God, not themselves). I do not believe for a second that they are "faking" it.

Perhaps some who claim that ex-gay ministries have "failed" them are doing so because they have only claimed Christ as Savior; but have yet to make Him Lord over their lives.

Each individual's salvation experience is between them and God. I cannot claim to know who is saved and who isn't. That's not my purpose here. What I try to do is proclaim the Word of God as accurately as possible and when I see obvious heresies creeping in, the book of Jude warns us to be on guard and expose such deception.

The claims of the pastor at the camp were not based on God's Word.


He was creating his own kind of theology to match up with his physical desires. In so doing this, he is also dragging these impressionable teens away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ as well. To me, that is not a good thing. It may be comforting to their "flesh," and what they want to hear (having their ears 'tickled' as the Bible says)but ultimately, this is doing great harm to their souls.

It's a life or death issue. It's that serious! Where they spend eternity is determined according to what Jesus said in John 3:3 - "You must be born again."

Remember what else Jesus said?

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world (fill in the sin and wordly desire of your choice here) and lose his own soul?"

I'd be very careful about what I preached if I was that homosexual pastor.

David said...

Thank you for responding. I was interested in your response and I am sure we could go back and forth and I could counter your scripture also.

I am very happy for your 4 friends. However, I really hope that their "transformation" is real. Just because they have "turned away from the sin" as you put it, it does not necessarily mean they are any less gay. It just means they might not choose to engage in the livestyle. I could make a conscience decesion to be celebate, but that does not make me any less gay, the same as you could remain celebate, but it does not make you any less straight.

I think anyone whether they are a pastor or a lay person should careful about what they preach. Maybe we can agree on one thing. I want to make sure that before I continue conversing with you, that our core theology is the same. Once you have accepted Christ as Saviour, you are one of God's children and once that happens then NO man can take you out of the hand of God. Once you become a Christian, you cannot loose your salvation. Would you agree with me on this point? Because if you do not, then we have another disagreement. Look forward to hearing your opinion.

justplainlaura said...

Came across your blog researching the actual camp in the movie. I am an openly lesbian Christian social worker who works with teenagers, gay straight and question, and I was THRILLED to see a spot open for kids to go be themselves. Isn't it better to give these kids a place to explore their relationship with Christ in a non-judgmental way? Look at some of those kids... they are very clearly "different" than the "typical" kids you see at Young Life, Ignite, Life Teen, even Scum of The Earth (a more "alternative but still "Biblically" based Christian group). What's so wrong with allowing them a place to openly worship and figure out their relationship with God? So many teens, gay or straight, have no relationship with God at all.

I have the feeling you will throw scripture in my face and if you do, more power to you. Glad you can read and leave interpretation up to someone else. I've read it all.. multiple times, multiple languages and what I get out of it is that it is our place to love as Christ loved us.

Christinewjc said...

Hi David,

You asked:

Once you have accepted Christ as Saviour, you are one of God's children and once that happens then NO man can take you out of the hand of God. Once you become a Christian, you cannot loose your salvation. Would you agree with me on this point? Because if you do not, then we have another disagreement. Look forward to hearing your opinion.

I would agree that once genuine conversion to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord has been done, then that person cannot lose their salvation. However, there are (unfortunately) many false conversions out there. The parable of the sower describes them.

Several pastors and preachers in whom I admire agree that this does happen. Billy Graham, David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley, to name a few.

However, when genuine conversion occurs, it is true that "no one can snatch (the believer in Christ) out of his hands."

The question remains, however, did the person truly convert or was he/she a pretender? As I stated previously, only God and the person knows for sure. We can often spot true believers by the fruit of their works (although such works do not save them!) and their personal walk with Christ as well as adherance to God's Word.

In the case of those entrenched in the gay christian movement (gcm), if a person IS GENUINELY SAVED, but then backslides by believing and preaching that homosexual behavior is not sin (or, any other sin for that matter), then it will affect their rewards in heaven (at Christ's Judgment Seat, reserved only for believers). However, the people who have never confessed their sins (homosexual behavior, or otherwise), and are led by leaders of the gcm to believe that such behavior is not sin, then genuine conversion can be viewed as questionable.

Therein lies the danger, David. The unsaved have only one destiny. They will face The Great White Throne Judgment with their own sins upon their own souls, rather than the covering that Christ provides as the propitiation for their sin. I ask you this. Who would want to take the chance that what they are preaching would send them there?

The Bible tells us that UNREPENTANT homosexuals (as well as unrepentant liars, thieves, adulterers etc.) will not inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore, genuine conversion requires repentance of that(those)sin(s). One type of sin doesn't get a "pass" just because secular society thinks it's "normal, natural, inborn" or whatever. God's Word is the final authority on the issue.

Our conversation here is a very important one, David. It is for this reason that I have created a new blogpost about it; hoping that others will join in and share their opinions and Biblically-based comments about it.

Please see Love, Responsibility, Holiness = Wholeness.

P.S. I want to thank you for your nice demeanor as we discuss this often volatile issue. Many of my previous conversations have, unfortunately, become stalemates where each "boxer goes back to their own corner," often seething with anger at the other person. They go back and rip the comments I made calling me a homophobe, bigot, etc. I just pray that this doesn't happen with our conversation.

ahsevent said...

First of all for an 80 minute show I think it did an excellent job showing the struggle between a homosexuals "lifestyle" and there religion.

Regarding the comment about not seeing prayer around meals...ect. We should be praising God that he is ministering to these youth in such a way as to have anything. I live in the second largest city in my state and I cannot recall any attempt of the church to minister to a homosexual other than to picket rediculous events. Sad to say. I think the day of taking a judgemental is the problem with American Chrisitians. I think everyone would be amazed if they reacted to these homosexual teens with Love which if i recall is the greatest commandment, we would see some truely radical Christians. Rather than say that they cant be gay and christian lets just love them and let God be God.

Christinewjc said...

justplainlaura and ahsevent,

Thank you for your comments on this issue. Although we disagree, it is important for people to read different viewpoints.

If they labeled the camp a "gay camp" seeking to know Jesus Christ, perhaps it would have been more accurate. However, after seeing the show a second time the other night, I noticed that the goings on at the camp were anything but activities designed and meant to seek, discover, and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. It was more like a pronouncement that being gay and christian is ok with the leaders of the camp, so, therefore, it must be ok with God, too.

One female participant even revealed the fact that she has always had this nagging feeling that homosexuality is not ok with God. That was her own, God-given conscience awakening her to that fact. But the leaders at this camp would have her suppress that notion and go on in her physical desire to participate in lesbian sexual encounters.

The Bible is crystal clear on this issue. I won't go into all the Bible verses, but want to include this point:

Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact
Christ (God) who was the one declaring that.

So, Christ did say a lot about
homosexuality. Every time God says it in the Bible, Christ (being part of the Godhead) is agreeing with all that is previously written when he proclaims to
the Father, "Your word is truth".

John 1 explains that Christ was (and is) GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible. This unequivocably solidifies the inerrancy of the Bible and supports God's original proclamations in Scripture that homosexual behavior is sin and an

Please seek out the truth on this issue. Your eternal destination is at stake.

I would like to invite you to read my latest blogpost about the gay christian lie and heretical movement that is happening in the churches today.