Sunday, July 01, 2007

Replying to Deb's Post

Deb asks several questions in her recent blogpost. Since she has mentioned my blog and questions exactly what it is that I am trying to accomplish by challenging the gay christian theology movement, I thought that I would directly address her questions and concerns here.

Her "audience" over there appear to be mostly dismayed with our conversations. Perhaps they should be. A conscience stirred is often one that may lead back to God. That is a good thing. However, when such a thing is looked at and labeled "trying to hurt others" through sharing what the Bible says (about any subject), then clarification needs to be shown.

First, I want to let Deb know that I admire her. She isn't afraid to counter what she perceives as "those evil homosexual bashers who use the Bible to do so." That takes courage, on her part. She makes herself vulnerable by doing this and demonstrates that she does want to know the truth (IMHO). For this reason, I am writing this post.

Christine

*******



Deb wrote:

We’re not broken.


Yes we are, Deb. We are all broken and marred by sin. The penalty of sin is death (both physical and spiritual). It is for that reason that God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to be the perfect, sinless Lamb of God, to be the propitiation for our sins. Through a repentant faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we are can receive forgiveness for our sins and assurance of eternal life.



Deb wrote: "It’s amazing how some people will find flaws in others. It’s crazy when other Christians cast stones while preaching the word of God. There are a bunch of Ted Haggards roaming the earth. A few “so called loving Christians” have voiced their concerns with my new book. They’re afraid that I’m teaching a false doctrine. I’m not writing a bible here. I’m writing a book based upon the differences between religion and spirituality in my own views. I have that right."


Yes. You do have that right. But Jesus has cautioned us to discern truth from error. Depending upon our own "feelings," "differences between religions and spirituality in our own 'views' " is not biblical. Just to agree intellectually that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins is not enough. Nor is it enough to have an emotional experience. We receive Jesus Christ by faith, as an act of our will.

Picture in your mind two circles with a throne in the middle which represent two kinds of lives:

The self-directed life has "self" on the throne, Christ is outside the life and interests are directed by self, often resulting in discord and frustration.

The Christ-directed life has Christ in the center of the life and on the throne. Self is yielding to Christ (at the foot of the cross). Interests are directed by Christ, resulting in harmony with God's plan.

Which circle best represents your life?



Deb wrote: "People have the right to choose what they believe. I have no authority over that. God gave us “choice”. We have the right to make our own decisions and conclusions of whether or not we’d find solace believing in a particular faith or belief system."


Yes. People have the free will right to do those things. But what did Jesus say about entering the kingdom of heaven? Look up the verses, Deb. The primary one is :

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



Deb wrote: Why do people feel they can fix others?


Based on Jesus' statement above, and the Great Commission assignment that he gives all of his followers, we are to share the gospel with all people. The Holy Spirit does the rest. Once He indwells the heart of the believer, the Bible says that He will "guide us into all truth." Therefore, when any fellow believer is in error, we are to use Scripture to counter it. This is what Jesus did against Satan. The Word of God is what Satan, the enemy of our souls, fears. It is the best defense (the sword of the Spirit) against the lie.




Deb wrote: "Why do so many “Christians” want to change people and mold them in a form that suits their own kind?"


We "Christians" don't have the power to do that. Never claimed that we did. We share the truth of the gospel and God does the rest.

Look at the story of Charlene Cothran. The influence of other Christians prior to her conversion may have helped her to realize and see in her spirit that something was not right as she looked around at the people involved in that gay pride parade. After 20 long years, she was finally reached and she opened her heart to Jesus, allowing the power of the Holy Spirit to transform her and bring her to follow the will of God.

We all have our individual testimonies regarding the born-again experience. But the fruit of that conversion is a changed heart and mind towards the will of God.



Deb wrote: "I truly believe that these types of people don’t have enough faith in what Jesus has done for us, that they feel the need to be bound by old law and force-feed their “truth” to others."


You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. But is your opinion biblical? I have total faith in what Jesus did for us at the cross; so much so that I don't want anyone to miss it and perish!



Deb: "I don’t force-feed my beliefs. I share and I love hearing other people’s views and beliefs. I have absolutely no right to judge."


Sharing the gospel with non-believers is often called "prosyletizing" by the secular public. It is given this negative connotation precisely because people don't like to be told of their need to confess and repent of their sins. That is why Jesus told us that the cross would be considered "foolishness to those who are perishing" and a "stumbling block" to them. But to those who believe, "it is the power of God."

There is a difference between the eternal judgment (which is only up to God) and a discernment type of judging. If we didn't discern between truth and error, we could be "led astray" and away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible is filled with such warnings!

Tolerance and multiculturalism does not fit well with the Great Commission given to us by Christ. Jesus didn't tolerate the money-changers in the temple and he told us not to be "yoked with non-believers." There are certain things that once tolerated, then accepted, can lead us into sin and away from God. Embracing every religion out there may be met with approval by the multiculturalists (in classic Oprah style), but in the end, it leads to relativism which is an illogical place to be when it comes to the absolute truth given to us in God's Word, the Bible.



Deb: "There’s only one truth- some would say."


Jesus said the same thing. Then aren't we in good company?



Deb: "Why are people using the bible to hurt others? If you read some of this, and then head over to this blog, you’ll see people who have a mission to turn all homosexuals into heterosexuals. These people got some sort of recognition with a Monument Award, which is based upon this:“In an effort to encourage more Christian bloggers to monitor, analyze and publish (MAP) the gay christian movement, GCM has launched a monthly award called the Monument Awards. The Monument will highlight the posts of blog authors who present a clear biblical defense of truth in the face the false theology of the gay Christian movement.”If they’re not secretly gay or harbor feelings of homosexuality themselves, then why are they so focused and determined to bash homosexuals or turn the LGBT community away from God?"


God's Word is described as a two-edged sword. If you would open your Bible and read Hebrews 4:12, you will discover that the words that God speaks to us through Scripture are sharper than a two-edged sword.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I don’t know if you’ve ever been pierced by a sword…but is most definitely would hurt!

Perhaps God is doing a work in your life right now showing the truth (even though it hurts) and leading you away from former error on the subject of homosexual behavior acceptance.

I ran across a Bible verse at my other message board today that describes so well what is being touted by the gay Christian movement.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

That is what the gay Christian movement is involved with…the deceitfulness of sin!

A pastor friend of [the commenter at my message board] looked the word “hardened” up in the Strong’s, TWOT and the BDB and he said that there are two uses for the word. One is passive and the other is not. It basically means to strengthen.

In other words, one can be subjected to the hardening [strengthening] of the deceitfulness of sin!

Those involved in the gay Christian movement have been hardened in the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:13 is a warning to “exhort one another” daily so as not to fall into the trap of “hardening to the deceitfulness of sin.”

I have spoken with several ex-homosexual people (both men and women) and each of them have told me that now that they have been released from homosexual behavior and identity, they look back and see that they were involved in that trap of "hardening to the deceitfulness of sin." Each one has told me that it was being born-again in Jesus Christ that released them from such bondage. The power of the Holy Spirit worked in their lives to sanctify them; and leave not only the behavior behind, but also the orientation. Jesus set them completely free!




Deb: "Christine from “Talkwisdom”, rectifies her belief that God condemns homosexuality with these verses:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

Mat 7:14 "Because[fn1] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?"

Mat 7:17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Mat 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

"Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock."

Mat 7:25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock."

Mat 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand."

Mat 7:27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Do you see anywhere in these scriptures, where it says that Jesus condemns homosexuality? What these “Christians” do is twist the scriptures in order to bash homosexuals. They take passages from the bible and fit it to their preferences.


I was hoping and praying that the above verses would speak to your heart regarding the original question I asked you in a previous post. I asked (paraphased here) , "Does it bother you that your gay christian movement beliefs are just like the secular world's opinion of homosexual behavior?"

There is a good reason why Jesus warns us in these Scriptures that "narrow is the gate that leads to life and there are few that find it." The "gate to destruction is broad and many will enter into it."

Deb, I love you and care about you so much. Because we are arguing over this issue, you may not believe me. But, as a fellow Christian believer who is called by Christ to love my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ through the agape love of God (which also calls me to exhort brotherly and sisterly love); I hope that you will one day see me as sincere when I say that I don't want to see anyone go through that "wide gate that leads to destruction!"

I know that the gay christian movement is steeped in the "love your neighbor" mantra, but I don't want to see people (knowingly, or unknowingly) "love their neighbor right into that wide gate!!

Can you understand my motive?

It is not "hate" that compels Bible-based Christians to warn the gay christian movement followers that what is being taught to them (and by them, in some cases) is a blatant form of "false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

Think about it!

Visually, and sensually, a "sheep's clothing" is all warm, white and fuzzy, isn't it? But it is just a costume, a kind of pseudo-covering to disguise what really lives underneath.



Deb: "They say that gays and lesbians who are Christian do the same. The difference is, the scriptures that I point out have everything to do with this matter."


I do not mean to come across as saying that you are completely wrong in your beliefs. You do have many good, biblically-based comments that are uplifting and inviting for non-believers. But on this one issue, it's not me claiming that you are incorrect; it is God's Word that points that out!



Deb: "They refuse to give you a straight answer, or a supply you with a scripture that fits the bill."


I hope and pray that this post will be regarded as giving you that straight answer. A good friend once told me to just write what I am trying to convey and then link to the Scripture reference for people to look up. I'm trying to do that more often now.




Deb: "They’ll cherry pick their favorite condemning scripture and say it was meant for “you”, when in fact, it’s meant for “evil people” who practice wicked things."


Deb, the Leviticus scriptures describe the act of "lying with a man as with a woman" as sin and an abomination. The verse isn't clarified with the "promiscuity" excuse that you claim is what it's about. Both sins are condemned in the Old and New Testament.



Deb: "I have supplied passages numerous times that prove to me, and prove to other people as well, that homosexuality is not a sin- the act of promiscuity is."


The verses stand alone, as well as corporately when it comes to both subjects. Claiming this isn't so is not the truth.



Deb: "There’s a huge difference between lust and love.

They can’t distinguish between the two. They’ll say anything outside of a marriage is committing adultery. Well, if the LGBT community were able to get married legally, this would be possible. “People” have set the rules and regulations over this law determined purely out of discrimination and different interpretations of what they feel is fit for America as well as biblically."


There is a huge difference between sex and love, too. There are no prohibitions to love another woman. We just are not allowed to have sex with another woman. It was God's idea, not mine to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.



Deb: "They also leave out the fact that in the bible, being a divorcee who remarries while their ex is still alive is a sin. That’s “outside” of marriage too. But they don’t think that’s valid. Why? Because they’re heterosexuals."


This isn't the subject at hand right now. If you want to discuss this further, we can create another post. Briefly though, originally, marriage was to be a lifetime commitment. But because men's hearts were hardened, Moses allowed divorce because of infidelity.



Deb: Christine also makes this statement about Susan Powter. She said, “Susan was a victim of spousal infidelity and abandonment when her first husband left her for a younger woman. When women get stomped on by the men in their lives and then some of them end up turning towards lesbianism, I always get a nagging question in my mind. Is lesbianism fixed or fluid? Which is it?”


I know of several ex-lesbian women who were abused in some way by men. I didn't say that this happens to every woman who then self-identifies as a lesbian, but apparently it is often a contributing factor.



Deb: "I can answer that for her, through my own personal experiences. Every guy I have dated when I was younger was more than respectful towards me and treated me with love and kindness. I never once had a bad experience with a man. I had a boyfriend before I came out as a lesbian. He was the most beautiful man, inside and out. Today, I still communicate with him from time to time. He’s the most giving, caring, compassionate man I have ever known. He never once disrespected me. He never “stomped on me” and he is not the reason why I’m a lesbian. My genes are."


Science does not bear that out. See the NARTH website.



Deb: "The way God created me is the reason why my orientation is the way it is. I asked Christine why she focuses so much on lesbians. She really doesn’t ramble on too much about gay men. I asked her if she had repressed feelings about being a lesbian herself, since she is so focused on the topic—more than Christianity itself. She said, “Oh yeah Deb. Yep. You found me out! Sheesh... I've only been married for 24 years to a wonderful man who loves me (and I love him!) and we have two grown children. Yeah...that would tend to make others think that I'm a repressed lesbian.”"


If you check the archives at my blog, you will see many posts about my concern of the radical gay agenda in schools. The promotion of this is done under the guise of "fighting hate" and promoting "safe schools." The trouble is, the underlying reason is to promote homosexuality as normal, natural, and acceptable without the knowledge (or religious beliefs being considered) of the parents. This is a terrible social propaganda problem that is one-sided and puts our children in danger. But that's a subject for another blogpost.



Deb: "I replied, “I have a friend who was married to a man for 33 years. She came out of the closet due to her sexual orientation that she has known ever since she was a child. Sometimes people come out late. Who knows?”I have a very special reader on my blog that does not choose to comment. She reads me daily and emails me every so often. She’s stuck in a situation that she can’t get out of, due to having many children in her marriage. She wanted to do the right thing. Now she’s unhappy. (And yes, I have permission from this anonymous woman to post this story as long as I don't use her name.) She is now well into her late 50’s and feels repressed and resentful. Her kids are grown up and she’s afraid of coming out, ruining everything she has known all her life to be comfortable. She feels it’s too late to be herself and find what it’s like to live a life that she wants. But that’s hard. How can she? She can do the best she can with what she has right now. If she decides to leave what she has, that is purely up to her…and not anyone else. So don’t give me the, “I’ve been married for somewhat years and have children” bit. It happens. I’m not saying you’re a homosexual Christine, I’m just pointing out an observation about you, since you seem to focus way too much on lesbians."


So was that woman's orientation fixed or fluid? Married for 33 years with children? Was she unhappy all the time or just recently?

I don't claim to know all the reasons why people float between heterosexual and homosexual attraction. But I just wonder why the gay community absolutely hates ex-gays? Aren't they supposed to be the "tolerant" ones?

Another thing. If I was focusing on lesbians, as you said, then I would be over at Rosie O'Donnell's blog. There is probably an army of them there! I am in conversation with you for two main reasons.

1. You claim that the Bible does not say that homosexual behavior is sin.

2. You claim that Jesus' sacrificial death for sin's penalty and resurrection to life "abolishes" the Law and the Prophets.

Both of your claims are wrong. Jesus himself said:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.




Deb: Let gays have the option to be Christian and love God. Why are you trying to convince them to turn away from God or better yet- trying to change their lives and fix them, when only God can? Don’t you trust God enough? These are questions I have for everyone who feels the need to “fix us”. We’re not broken.


Neither you nor I have the power to turn people towards, or away from God. All that we are required to do is share the gospel of TRUTH.

Jesus asks all of us this question: "Who do you say that I am?"

One day, I will stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ and all that I have done that has been recorded in the books will be revealed. However, the most important book will be The Book of Life. When all is said and done, whether or not a person's name appears in that Book will determine where they will spend eternity.

Jesus admonishes and warns us:

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

1 Peter 3:12-22 The hope that is in us:

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"The witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:11-13).

Thank God often that Christ is in your life and that He will never leave you (Hebrews 13:5). You can know on the basis of His promise that Christ lives in you and that you have eternal life from the very moment you invite Him in. He will not deceive you.

13 comments:

Susan Smith said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Susan Smith said...

Hi Christine:

This is without a doubt the most loving and kind blog I have ever seen you write regarding the sin of homosexuality. You have “come a long way” over the last five years. You are growing in Christ and the knowledge of His will for your life in all spiritual wisdom and understanding on a daily basis and I have been praying this for you and for myself since we met via the Internet in 2005. Your blog was a refreshing oasis for me to read during my five years in Jerusalem as a Christian volunteer with Bridges for Peace and it continues to provide food for thought since I have returned to the United States.

I am a former lesbian who was deceived for more than twenty years when I believed God had created me “gay”... Babies are not sexual beings. They do not have functional sexual organs. Our human sexuality is developed as we grow and mature physically, mentally, psychologically and emotionally.

I was molested around the age of four or five by an older brother. Molestation (legally rape) occurred several times by my brother and having a very poor relationship with my mother during the years of my childhood and development were the circumstances contributing to my choosing homosexual behavior for more than twenty years. I was also a drunkard for more than thirty years. Jesus the Messiah delivered from homosexual behavior in 1985 and from the identity of a lesbian in 1988. My deliverance from alcohol abuse was more than ten years later.

This writer never chose to be attracted to the same sex; however, I did choose to commit sexual sin. My attraction to the same sex was largely due to my yearning for a mother’s love. I am not saying my mother did not love me. She was simply unable to express her motherly love in a way that I could receive when I was growing up. She died this year at the age of 97, about one month before I left Israel. I was unable to return to the United States for her funeral.

God bless you my friend on the West coast. May we continue to grow in the knowledge of the Lord together. Have a wonderful day and from one woman to another: I love you dearly. God has used you mightily to minister to my personal needs over the years. It is ok to have healthy and righteous relationships with other women even if one is a former lesbian. The Lord has used many beautiful women to nurture my spiritual growth since my deliverance in 1985. You are a very special woman in my life and one of the most beautiful. Much love to you, your husband, daughter and son. (ss)

Loud Mouth said...

This Susan Smith ex-lesbo's account only had two views on her blog and NO blog. She is a fraud and possibly a made up account by yours truly...........Christine. She has no readers. Come on sista- who you foolin' up in here?

Here's the real deal which I have written on Deb's blog:

The Scriptures in the Bible that are used to condemn homosexuality, when read in full context, refer not to loving, homosexual adult relationships, but to various sins such as male prostitution, pederasty (having sex with young boys), pagan idolatry and orgies, inhospitality, and homosexual rape (to make a man "as a woman" was the ultimate insult, and was used to demonstrate supremacy over the victim). These are all forms of treating God or His creations with something other than love and respect.

It is easy to see why He would disapprove of these things.
There are six Scriptures that are commonly cited as "proof" that God hates gay people. Notice that, in the above paragraph, women aren't even mentioned. Likewise, lesbianism is only mentioned in one of those six Scriptures.

My general comment about the six common Scriptures is this:

The Bible has long been used to defend racism and slavery, the subjugation of women, wars, and the outright slaughter of anyone who was different. The Ku Klux Klan, the reign of Hitler, the witch hunts, and the Crusades were all purported to be efforts in the name of Jesus Christ! What's more, they were vigorously supported, or even developed by, one or more major church groups. The last two were backed or developed by the Catholic Church, and many are also convinced it was complicit in the Holocaust - to the extent that at the time of this writing, Israel is urging the Vatican to halt procedures to beatify Pope Pius XII as a saint until scholars are allowed to examine related documents.

Far from innocent, many other churches lent their support to various atrocities as well (i.e. both Protestants and Catholics to the witch hunts, white churches in the South to the KKK). All it takes is a little web research to see that this is true.

Scriptures have been taken out of context and used to promote hatred, abuse, and murder for centuries, supposedly on God's behalf. That's blasphemy of the worst kind!

In addition, the hypocrisy of using the Bible as an excuse to judge anyone should be obvious. No one has room to judge anyone else because we all fall short of the mark. I personally won't stand for it when people condemn me or Deb for being who we are, based on six Scriptures, taken out of context, while ignoring the entire remainder of the Bible. How dare someone lecture me when he's cheating on his wife? Or when she loves nothing better than viciously tearing people down? Or when they're in the car on their way home from church, plotting how to cheat their employees so they can reap more profits? I won't take it sitting down, and I would encourage you to gently remind any scorners that Jesus is the only one who has room to cast the first stone.

One last point: No one else knows what you and God have between you; your relationship with the Lord is a personal relationship. So for one person to look at another and say, "He's such a sinner. He can't be a Christian," or, "She's a lesbian, so you know she's going to hell," is to play mindreader and God. People who assume that God thinks the way they do are being presumptuous and egotistical. My prayer is that, through this ministry, less people will allow that kind of hypocrisy to affect their relationships with the Lord.

YOU come across as all loving on THIS particular post, howevA, what about the comments that you've left out of anger and the posts that you have written and the "gay movement watches" that you have out?

You're a complete hypocrite sista, and you side with those who call blacks stupid and lesbians perverts.

You're not a Christian, you're a hateful witch!

Christinewjc said...

Dear Susan,

Thank you so much for showering me, once again, with your cool, refreshing, words of lovingkindness.

Once again, the tears flowed when I read about your history, and your release from the former bondage of sin in your life through the power of Jesus Christ. I really appreciated reading your uplifting, encouraging and loving words towards me.

Knowing your testimony and how God has released you from the bondage of such things you once embraced in the past, just shows how powerfully God can use you, and anyone, who is willing to accept Christ as not only Savior, but Lord over one's life! We can clearly see that "with God, all things are possible!"

I'm so glad that you have chosen to step out and share your story; despite what others my say, do or think of you.

We must "pay no attention to that 'boy' behind the curtain of the screen name 'Loudmouth'." Those who are still under the power of deception will continue to refuse to hear, and heed, God's Word and calling in their life.

I do want to apologize that you had to read loudmouth's diatribe against you; especially since he doesn't know anything about you or what he's talking about.

My first impulse was to delete it, but I'm leaving it up so that people coming here will see the difference between a person, like you, a mature, spiritual person in Christ who has been released from the bondage of sin, verses a person who can't do anything but spew hateful rhetoric.

What is especially egregious, however, is seeing a gentle person such as yourself, being attacked just after sharing your heartfelt testimony on a public forum. Along comes a heartless kid whose only goal, apparently, is to name-call and make false accusations. He doesn't even know you, yet, he accuses you (and I) of being fakes? It's deplorable and pathetic...to say the least.

But like I said (when I borrowed that line from the Wizard of Oz), manipulators, Christian bashers, and those with ungodly motives like him (and the Wizard in the movie) are easily exposed and found out in the end.

I had planned to answer your comment earlier, but family stuff came along and drew my attention away. In fact, I've got a busy day ahead. My daughter and I are going to view the Dead Sea Scrolls museum exhibit!

But I wanted to briefly reply and say that I am so grateful to God that we became friends via this blog. We didn't know it, but God had planned all along for us to meet and be friends! You have been such a blessing in my life, Susan, and have taught me many things. You have been patient with me when I falter, and a great encourager when I get it right. I thank God for you!

God bless you this day over in your new U.S.A. residence!

Love in the Lord Jesus,
Christine

Christinewjc said...

Loudmouth,

FYI, Susan has just moved from Jerusalem to the U.S.A. Thus, she had to re-register with blogger. She also has chosen not to manage a blog.

My advice? Watch the foot-in-mouth disease...

Jaded said...

Wow, I picked a heck of a day to try to play "catch up!"

First, LoudMouth...Susan Smith is, in fact, a real live person who is in no way related to Christine. The lovely diatribe calling Christing a witch and denying that she's a Christian is doing the very thing of which accuse Christine. So, who's the hypocrite?

Second, Christine, this isn't a debate I plan to enter, for any number of reasons. You and I have come to have a rather nice relationship over these past months. We had a rather contentious start, however.

I will say this:

I agree with Susan Smith in that I believe you absolutely come from a place of love when you post about this topic, and I also believe that Deb comes from a place of love as well. I think the harm is done when we, as Christians, call another professed Christian out in what might appear to be an attack or a challenge. I think it is harmful for us to use the Bible as a weapon when we are trying to "prove" that we are right. I think that only serves to push people away from Him, rather than to bring us closer. As I've said to you many times, I can never know your relationship with the Lord and you can never know mine... we walk with Him individually. I believe that if we are called to witness to someone, or to speak about a particular subject, there is a way to do it without causing pain and anger.

You and I don't always agree, Christine, but I have grown to respect you a great deal. I don't always agree with Deb, either, but I respect her just as much. I think that we can all learn something from one another, without hurting each other. I think you're both loving women who love the Lord.

~Deb said...

Susan,

I’m sorry to hear of your mother’s passing. My condolences. She lived a long life. Sometimes we feel that something’s lacking in our lives, or things aren’t being fulfilled as they should be and at times, we expect more from others who cannot provide the needs we desire. Personally, I have had such a close relationship with my mom since I was a little tyke. (Not dyke.) Anyway, I grew up with three older sisters, a mom who was close, who stayed home to take care of me, and a father who worked his booty off, trying to make a living to provide for all of us. Some say that my lifestyle “choice” was influenced by living in a henhouse. Sometimes I tend to think, “Hmm, quite possibly true!” But, even as a baby, and let me tell you, this is 100% truth here…and it’s the first time I have admitted this all throughout my history of writing----I’ve been a sexual being since I was one year old. Let me explain… Ever since I found “me”, it’s been an explorative and instinctual reaction to please myself. Now, technically, as a baby, how would I know this?

It’s natural.

I’ve never once been sexually abused, nor have I witnessed sex between anyone while growing up. I didn’t know sex. I instinctively knew it. With that being said, I knew which gender I was attracted to. I remember watching Donnie & Marie Osmond (shush, it was the thing back then), I had a major crush on Marie. I would watch that so intently, with eyes of lust for her. I was only 3 years old. How was it, that I looked at her in a romantic way, when I never knew romance to begin with? How does any human know this without witnessing a sexual behavior? Interesting, right?

I dated men to cover up my feelings for women. I fell in love with my best friends and it was absolute torture, Susan. I grew up repressed and very resentful for being in the closet. Back then, it wasn’t “trendy” to be bi-sexual or gay. I couldn’t come out of the closet without the fear of my friends and sisters saying, “Ewww!” So I kept it in.

When I finally came out of the closet, I was liberated and happy. I was “me”. I fell in love with the person I wanted to fall in love with. It was real. It was true. Then, I fell into a Trinity Assembly Church, which basically threw me back into the closet and I almost became an ex-lesbian, like yourself. I thought, “Oh wow, they pointed out a lot of references to the bible.” Then, I took it upon myself to sit, meditate and pray to God every single day for hours at a time about what was the truth. I read, …….no………..I STUDIED the bible inside and out and came to my conclusions. I have not twisted scriptures, due to my spiritual experiences. God spoke to me, and He said I was okay. It was the best confirmation, the most beautiful confirmation, because deep down inside, I thought that I was destined for hell.

I felt guilt, shame, depression and anger for being “me”. Those feelings are all manifestations of the devil. God is the one who will confirm, liberate and He’s the one with the truth. Seek Him, desire to seek Him, and desire to understand with discernment. That’s how I came to my conclusion of my beliefs.
I will not say that your beliefs aren’t valid. If God tells “you” that it’s not meant for you to be a lesbian, then so be it. That’s His word for you. I cannot tell you God didn’t speak to you. Your relationship with God is your own----no one has the right to tell you differently.

I respect what you went through and admire your strength to share it with others. With me, I share the word of God, I share my experiences, and let the reader decide for themselves what’s true for them.

We cannot force-feed doctrine or faith, we can only share the good news and hope for the best for each individual who wants to develop a personal relationship with God.

God bless, and take everything with a grain of salt when speaking to others who oppose your views. It can be devastating --- if you let it. I pray that God guards your heart and mind, as you may be persecuted for being who you are.

With love,
Deb

Stephen said...

Man, it's amazing what one misses in a couple of days.

Hi Christine - it's been a long time.

Hello Jaded, it's been even longer and you and I can personally relate to what's going on here, and as I said before, I'm sincerely sorry.

You are correct: we cannot know any one's heart. In fact, the Bible says our own heart is "desperately wicked - who can know it?" Hope all is well and know that we've been praying for Jadette. I pop over your blog every now and then (sometimes being welcomed by some groovy INXS) to catch up on the madness of the State, red-tape, etc., in the fight for Jadette's rights. Don't stop your fight.. and I know you won't! :)

And hello Susan! Welcome back to the states. When I read "Loud Mouth's" post (what a screen name), I have to admit, I immediately switched gears from "spirit" to "flesh." Thank the Lord I read further all the comments.

Christine, beautiful loving post and I hope to get to know Deb a little more.

One thing I have learned (and continue to learn each day -- that's after I step down from my VERY high horse...) is name calling names accomplishes NOTHING positive and is childish; for the immature. When people call someone else a name or mock them, it's like the school bully on the back of the bus waiting to pick on the kid getting ready to sit down.

"Our" opinions mean NOTHING. The Lord's Word means EVERYTHING. Our desire should be to know His truth, Word and perfect will - putting all else aside. Our desire should be that His Word becomes our CONVICTION.

Conversing or debating with others forces us to look at our beliefs: are they OUR beliefs -- or God's? Are they true, biblical convictions, or just our own "preferences"?

Personally, I want to know only the Lord's Word and truth for my life. If I am wrong, I will admit it and move on. That's what Christian growth is all about.

Anyone who claims the Name of Christ should be on that journey and quest for His Truth as well. We will all be growing and learning until the day that we - Lord willing - meet the One who paid it all for us on Calvary.

Christinewjc said...

Hi Jaded,

Ah! We have come such a long way, haven't we? When I recall our first few conversations at that blog (which shall remain nameless) we really were not very nice to each other. The Lord has worked "what was meant for evil" in the past "for good" now in our lives, hasn't He? We have grown so much!

What you have stated is so true. I think that if we can work out differences through love, rather than personal attacks then the message of truth is much more likely to get through. This is whether or not a person recognizes the truth.

Sometimes, it takes a while for people to recognize another's motives (our past with each other, for instance). But once someone "puts their heart out there" and shares the truth in love, then even though we may not agree upon everything (who does??) we can still live and share in an amicable way.

I can understand why this is not a debate that you care to enter into. It is such a testy subject with many people (just as abortion usually is). I will take your good advice into consideration here. I don't know why this subject keeps coming up with me here on this blog, but for some reason, I feel that I'm called through the Holy Spirit to speak about it. I am learning a great deal through these encounters with those who don't agree with me. It is my hope that some reading here will learn more about what God has revealed through Scripture on this subject, as well.

Hey Stephen!

Great to see you here again! I'm sure that you have been very busy with ministry.

It is always such a pleasure to hear from my dear brother in Christ every so often!

I know what you mean when you confessed wanting to fall back into the "flesh" while responding to Loudmouth. I wanted to do the same! I had some good "ammunition" barreling up in my mind (especially ideas about that screen name!) but then something...no Someone...stopped me in my tracks. I could choose to listen to the Holy Spirit's leading, or lash out in anger in my own "flesh." I'm not always successful at making the right choice...but I know that you are right when you said that it doesn't accomplish anything productive to do that.

Your last four paragraphs are very helpful reminders for us all! I especially want to take to heart this:

"Our" opinions mean NOTHING. The Lord's Word means EVERYTHING. Our desire should be to know His truth, Word and perfect will - putting all else aside. Our desire should be that His Word becomes our CONVICTION.

God bless you Jaded and Stephen, and your families too, this day and always!

Love in Jesus,
Christine

Christinewjc said...

Hi Deb,

I know that your comment was directed at Susan, but I just wanted to say that I thought your words of kindness to her in your last paragraph were truly uplifting.

Love in Jesus,
Christine

Jaded said...

Well, praise the Lord! Who would have thought a short 2 years ago that the day would come when Stephen, Christine and I would all be sharing the Spirit of the Lord with love, not with animosity! I, for one, am thankful. As I said, the more the anger went on, the heavier it became on my heart. I think that's exactly as Satan would have it... Christians attacking and dividing, rather than speaking in love so that we might learn from one another. The fact that we don't agree on everything doesn't make us bad Christians, it makes us human.

Stephen, thank you for your words of support and your prayers for Jadette. I believe 100% that she was given to us because God knew we could handle it, and that we would fight for her. I will not back down for a second, because I know He expects me to do right by her. She is a blessing and such a special, beautiful little girl! I thank Him every day for her!

And Deb, if you're still reading here, I absolutely understand what you said to me on your blog... it IS hard when you're attacked for your beliefs, especially by other Christians. I've been there, believe me! It's hard not to lash out in anger, and not just to defend yourself, but to defend God as you know Him. The more I've prayed about it, however, the more I know that it hurts us spiritually to give in to that kind of temptation. I don't always do the right thing, but I'm trying much harder.

I think you all know by now that I refuse to enter into a "war of scripture" by using the Bible to prove that I'm right and someone else is wrong. I don't believe that God wants us to use His word to break someone down or bash them, whether we believe we're right or not. I just believe He'd prefer us to use His word to teach, witness, minister... to lift others up and show them the way as we know it. The bottom line is that no matter how "right" we think we are, we're also human, and we still have much to learn. Sharing our testimonies freely, listening to what other Christians have to say, reading His word and discussing it...those are the things that will help us grow.

Just my opinion.

Dani said...

Christine - It's nice of you to take the time to continue to try and reach Deb, but I think she has already made it clear dozens of times that she will NEVER, EVER change. While she may believe she's a Christian, it's blatantly obvious that her love for her lesbian partner and her sin come before her love and obedience for God.

The arguments from Deb are the same - twisting Scripture over and over again to make her believe that what she's doing is right. Well, just like Hitler said, "If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough, people will believe it." - It's like Deb's trying to convince herself by continuing to tell herself lies.

Deb will be accountable to God for her life and she will be held accountable for the false doctrine of "love" that she preaches - We've all warned her of her sin and told her the TRUTH, what she chooses to do with that information is ultimately up to her.

*Just for fun - Check out this NEW & Improved Version of the Bible for queer theologians like Deb.

Christinewjc said...

I think you are correct, Dani.

Deb has been shown so much biblical evidence that undeniably conflicts with her own, personal beliefs about this issue. The only explanation that is left is that she just plain and simply, refuses to accept what God has clearly revealed in His Word.

Although that link is supposed to be a joke, the sad part is that the gay christian theology movement is just another example of idolatry. They are attempting to re-create Jesus and His Word into their own image. Their "golden calf" is evident in how they place a human sexual experience with the same gender ahead of the truth of God's Word, obedience to it, and adherence to Christ's command to strive towards the righteousness of God.

This morning, I thought about the song that was playing in the background in the movie Forrest Gump when Jenny had been taking drugs, then stepped out onto the ledge, contemplating ending her misery.

It was "Free Bird" from Lynyrd Skynyrd:

Some of the lyrics:

And this bird you cannot change
And this bird you cannot change
And this bird you cannot change
Lord knows I cant change
Lord help me I cant change
Lord I cant change


When steeped in sin and deception, only the Lord can rescue us!

Praise God that former homosexual activists (like Charlene Cothran and Michael Glatze) have found Jesus and through repentant faith in His power, have been released from the bondage of homosexuality!

These individuals, plus hundreds, if not thousands more, have shown that "with God, all things are possible!"

What powerful witnesses they will now be for the Lord! They will no longer lead others astray in the homosexual flood of deception. They will represent tremendous hope with their testimonies to help others to overcome the bondage they, themselves, were once in!