Tuesday, July 24, 2007

The Lord's Leading

As a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, have you ever wondered why the Lord leads you in a particular direction when it comes to issues within our culture? I have wondered the same thing...many times.

For me, the most pressing issues have been about radical Islamic terrorism, illegal immigration, abortion, homosexuality and the onslaught of secularism against our tradition of Judeo-Christian values and ethics.

Lately, I have been very involved in discussions regarding the gay theology movement. This morning, I asked the Lord, "why is this particular issue currently most outstanding at this time in my life? It seems that almost every other post here at my blog is about this topic. But why, Lord?

Today, I think that I received my answer.

It started with a visit over to GCMWatch. There is a post up about the fact that yet another church has left the apostate UCC.

In response to that post, I wrote two comments:

Is this apostate “United Church of Christ” a perfect example of the warnings in Jude or what?

Jud 1:16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.

And, the faithful remnant church that voted in favor of departure for good reason:

Jud 1:17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:

They recognized the heretics for what they truly are:

Jud 1:18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit
And, the church that left the UCC did so as a last resort, but they are a perfect example of those who what to stay true to the gospel of Christ and hold steadfast in the faith:

Jud 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, (bold mine)

Jud 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


My second comment was in reference to a link to DL Foster's commentary, UCC gay church ad all about division

I just read your link about the ads “depicting a church ejecting gays from the pews.” How absolutely false and childish is that?? Who would believe such nonsense? It’s truly sad…

You wrote:

3.The ad attempts to use benign words infused with highly contradictory meanings against traditional church teaching. Words such as “tolerance” and “inclusion” have ulterior meanings when deployed by gays in the UCC.

They certainly have ulterior motives and subsequent goals. One goal appears to be one of elevating “tolerance” and “inclusion” above our Lord’s calling for us to strive for holiness and righteousness!

Next, I was re-reading a portion of chapter 2, The Ultimate Deception in Ed Hindson's Antichrist Rising book. The subtitle reads, "The Final Religion." I will attempt to summarize the first portion, but if you have this book please read pp. 31-32.

A lot has already been written about the false religion of the last days. Some have pointed to Mohammed as the False Prophet, others have been convinced it was the pope. Recent identifications have included the New Age movement, the National Council of Churches, and various religious cults.

Hindson writes:

First, the apostles were convinced that the spirit of Antichrist (1 John 4:3) and the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2:7, KJV) were already at work in their own time. This means that the apostate spirit predates all modern churches as we know them today. Second, the final, future form of apostasy is clearly located in the city of the Antichrist at Rom (Revelation 17:9), referred to symbolically as "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 18:2).

If pre-tribulationists are correct in assuming the rapture of the true church will occur before the tribulation period, then all "Christian" churches that remain will be apostate, no matter what their label - Catholic, Reformed, Methodist, Baptist, or Pentecostal. It is a very reasonable assumption that all those "pseudo-Christians" left behind would align with one another in a common cause of unbelief (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12).

After reading this, my previous comment made the reason that the Lord Jesus has been leading me in the direction of speaking out against the gay theology movement crystal clear!

One goal (of the gcm) appears to be one of elevating “tolerance” and “inclusion” above our Lord’s calling for us to strive for holiness and righteousness!

I would venture to say that another goal of the gcm is to lead many into the heresy of dismissing obedience to God's Word; and thus, ignoring God's call for followers of Jesus to strive for holiness and righteousness!

Every person who agrees with the gay theology movement ALWAYS stresses "tolerance" (which has been re-defined as total acceptance for their particular sinful behavior), "inclusion," (meaning, if you don't agree then you are evil and a bigot), and express ONLY the love of God while completely ignoring His equally important characteristics of holiness, righteousness and judgment!

Hindson is prophetic in what he states next. After the rapture of true believers occurs, an unbeliever will use his position and authority to encourage an alliance of unbelieving Christendom.

"The ecclesiastical unity liberal Christendom has so long failed to produce will occur instantly after the rapture."

Of course, this is already happening in the world on a less broader scale. How do I know this?

Hindson writes:

Consider these important observations:

1. The spirit of Antichrist and the mystery of iniquity were already at work in apostolic times.

2. Apostasy has progressed throughout church history, predating modern church structures.

3. A large segment of modern Christendom is already apostate. Unbelief is rampant in both liberal Catholic and Protestant circles.

4. After the rapture of true believers, all professing "Christians" who are left behind will be apostate believers no matter what their denomination.

5. The False Prophet will arise in Rome to lead apostate Christendom in its acceptance of the Antichrist.

I am reminded of the Bible verse that speaks to this exact situation:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Jesus is telling us that the "elect" (those born-again in Christ who receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) will not be deceived; yet, those pseudo-christians could easily fall into apostate Christendom.

Can you see, now, why I am constantly sounding the alarm bells about avoiding the heresies out there that will lead to apostasy??

What is happening within the UCC church can be compared to the warnings given to the Church at Pergamum (see Revelation 2:12 - 17).

Rev 2:14
"But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.
Rev 2:15
"Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[fn1]
Rev 2:16
"Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Believers at the Pergamum church experienced great pressure to compromise or leave the faith. There were some faithful believers there (Antipas, who did not compromise but died for his faith), but many "held to the teaching of the Nicolaitans." The Nicolaitans were believers who compromised their faith in order to enjoy some of the sinful practices of Ephesian society. According to my NIV Bible notes:

The name Nicolaitans is held by some to be roughly the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word for "Balaamites." Balaam was a prophet who induced the Israelites to carry out their lustful desires (See Revelation 2:14 and Numbers 31:16). When we want to take part in an activity that we know is wrong, we may make excuses to justify our behavior, saying that it isn't as bad as it seems or that it won't hurt our faith. Christ has strong words for those who look for excuses to sin.

I first became involved in opposing the homosexual legal agenda through conservative, traditional family groups like Concerned Women for America, Capitol Resource Institute, Alliance Defense Fund, Campaign for California Families, etc. But once I found out about the lie of the gay christian theology movement being promoted out there (and forced upon churches and denominations who wanted to stay true to Christ's gospel and God's Word), I saw this threat as "an enemy within."

Now, before you get all huffy and puffy and call me names, let me explain.

Hindson writes:

The New Testament was written in the first century A.D. when Roman paganism and emperor worship threatened the church. Despite this threat, the biblical writers warned constantly of apostasy from within the ranks of the church (see 1 timothy 4:1-3; 2 timothy 3:1-5; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Galatians 1:6-12; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 John 4:1-3; 2 John 7; Jude 3,4). In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Paul describes this apostasy in the following terms:

1. the rebellion (verse 3)
2. secret power of lawlessness (verse 7)
3. the work of Satan (verse 9)
4. powerful delusion (verse 11)
5. the lie (verse 11)

Paul indicates that this process will begin during the Church Age. The "falling away" (KJV; Greek, apostasia) will occur before the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2:1,3). But its final explosion as a form of worldwide unbelief will only occur after the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit indwelling the true church is removed at the rapture (2:5-8).

Now, do I think that the gcm is the lone source of apostasy?


But it is definitely a part of it! We can lump in several other heresy groups into the mix. (i.e. the Emergent church movement, New Age spin-off groups etc.)

How do we recognize heresy groups?


The biblical writers use the following descriptions:

1. abandon the faith (1 Timothy 4:1)
2. follow deceiving spirits (1 Timothy 4:1)
3. doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1)
4. hypocritical liars (1 Timothy 4:2)
5. lovers of themselves (2 Timothy 3:2)
6. lovers of money (2 Timothy 3:2) [Note from Chris: Benny Hinn, anyone?]
7. boastful, proud, abusive, unholy (2 Timothy 3:2)
8. lovers of pleasure (2 Timothy 3:4)
9. deceitful workmen (2 Corinthians 11:13)
10. pervert the gospel of Christ (Galatians 1:7)
11. destructive heresies (2 Peter 2:1)
12. shameful ways (2 Peter 2:2)
13. deceivers (2 John 7)
14. godless men (Jude 4)
15. Christ-deniers (Jude 4)

Not every apostasy group would follow after every one of those descriptions. However, they can be easily spotted and revealed because they often follow after several of them!


The New Testament also provides a list of categorical descriptions for these apostates. In most cases the Greek term pseudo ("false") is prefixed to a legitimate category, implying that apostates are false imitators of the real thing. (bold mine)

1. false christs, pseudochristoi (Matthew 24:24)
2. false prophets, pseudoprophetai (Matthew 24:11)
3. false apostles, pseudoapostotoi (2 Corinthians 11:13)
4. false teachers, pseudodidaskaloi (2 Peter 2:1)
5. false brothers, pseudoadelphoi (Galatians 2:4)

These designations imply that an apostate form of Christendom will be the final world religion of the last days. Whether this religion will include unbelieving elements of other religious faiths [Note from Chris: radical Islam?] only time will tell. The final world religion could be amalgamated from a general religious tolerance, a perversion of Christianity, or a subjective religious climate in which each person does his or her own thing while generally acknowledging the worship of the Antichrist as God.

Final note. While taking a break from writing this post, I noticed a post called, John Boswell: a wasted gift of intellect over at GCM Watch.

GCM Watch concludes:

Boswell’s adept ability at “assuming what he must prove” has become a chief characteristic of the gay christian argumentation [see this post and links to Neil’s 5 part series on the problem of pro gay theology.] for the compatibility of homosexuality and Christianity. Boswell left a legacy which, in our opinion, will cause many well meaning individuals to be blinded by Boswell’s brilliant lie. For all the intelligence and intellect Boswell harnessed to construct such a web of deception, he himself seemed to be its greatest victim.

Moral of the story?

Don't allow yourself to be blinded by the lie.


Neil said...


I've come across various bits about the UCC. What a disappointing denomination!

One gay man who comments on my blog used the UCC web site as his home page and defended an apostate pastor named Chuck Currie when I criticized him for saying Jesus was not the only way to salvation.

Yet this same guy later admits to being a Unitarian Universalist. And later makes blasmphemous comments about God and mocks Christianity altogether. Turns out he is an atheist. Yet he feels completely at home in the UCC!

Chuck Currie seems to be a pretty good composite of UCC theology. He posted on John 14:6 and wondered if we were interpreting it right to say Jesus was the only way. Of course, he concluded that other religions are valid paths to God and I was arrogant and boastful to claim Jesus was the only way.

I pointed out to Currie that he was not only wrong on John 14:6, but he ignored the fact that there are literally 99 other verses (maybe more) stating that Jesus is the only way. He didn't have a clue, and chose to ignore that comment. It proved to me that he wasn't interested in the truth at all. He was interested in his made-up religion - basically, a Hindu sect - where they talk about the parts of the Bible they like but they never take a stand on anything.

Sorry for the long comment, but I get so tired of these false teachers calling themselves Christians when they mock the cross and the martyrs every day. The pro-gay theology thing is just another way for them to shake their fists at God.

Keep up the good work, and thanks for the links to my blog!

Jaded said...

I'm not sure how anyone could read John 14:6 and NOT see that Jesus is the ONLY way...

"Jesus said to him (Thomas), 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.'"

No one comes to God unless it is through Christ. I don't actually see any gray areas at all as this Chuck Currie implies. I don't actually know anything about Mr. Currie...this is the first I've even heard his name.

I think there's a vast difference between so-called gay theology and the sort of tolerance you would find at my church, for instance. My church welcomes everyone in to worship. It doesn't matter what's going on in your life...if you're searching for answers, you are welcome, period.

I am a Methodist, as you probably know. I have often refused to discuss the specifics of my religion, because I don't think it matters HOW you come to Christ, only THAT you come to Him. But, I think it appropriate to let you know exactly what I believe and how I worship.

The cornerstone for the UMC is "inviting people to experience God's grace and to grow in their knowledge and love of God through disciplined Christian living." The early Methodists' main goal was Christian living by putting faith and love into action. The church's ideas of leading a disciplined life in Christ have two main parts: Faith and Theology. Faith is the "commitment of our whole being - a matter of heart and soul." Theology is "more a matter of the head. It's thinking together in the community of believers about faith and discipleship. It's reflecting on the gospel. Some say that theology is only for professional theologians. This is not true. All of us, young and old, lay and clergy, need to work at this theological task so that our beliefs will actually guide our day-by-day actions and so that we can communicate our belief to an unbelieving world." (All this is from the United Methodist Member's Handbook)

We rely on Scripture. Our primary reliance in faith is placed in the Bible. It's our "sacred canon and, thus, the decisive source of our Christian witness and the authoritiative measure of the truth in our beliefs."

We believe that tradition is important. A lot of time has passed between the life of Christ and our own, and there are many "witnesses on whom we rely in our theological study. We use their words in creed, hymn, discourse and prayer, through their music and art, through their corageious deeds, we discover Christian insight by which our study of the Bible is illuminated." We call this living tradition, which we consider important in revealing a fresh understanding of the power of the Gospel.

Another part of our theological study is experience, most importantly, the new life in Christ, which is considered our greatest gift of God's grace. We use the Bible to interpret our life's experiences and vice versa.

We also believe reason "though, not exactly a direct source of Christian belief, is a necessary tool. We use our reason in reading and intepreting the Scripture. We use it in relating the Scripture and tradition to our experience and in organizing our theological witness in a way that's internally coherent." (all that stuff comes from The Book of Discipline.)

We share many basic affirmations with all Christian communities. We believe in the Holy Trinity. We believe that there is on God who created the world and all that's in it. We believe God is sovereign. We believe that God is loving, and that we can experience His grace and love. We believe that Jesus was a human, who was crucified and died. We believe He was the Son of God, and therefore that God raised Him from the dead. We believe that the risen Christ lives today. We believe that Christ is our Savior and in Him, we receive abundant life and forgiveness of sins. We believe Jesus is Lord and we are called to pattern our lives after His. We believe the Holy Spirit is God with us. The Holy Spirit comforts us when we are in need and convicts us when we stray from God. We believe that the church is the body of Christ. Our mission is to make disciples of Jesus Christ. We believe that the church is called to worship God and to support those who participate in its life as they grow in faith. We believe that the Bible is God's Word, and that it is the primary authority for our faith and practice. We believe that Christians need to know and study both testaments. we believe that the kingdom of God is both a present reality and a future hope. We believe it's our repsonsibility to be both a witness to the vision of what God's kingdom will be like and a participant in helping to bring it to completion. We believe that personally, we display the kingdom of God as our hearts and mins are transformed and we become more Christ-like, and that His vision for the kingdom includes the restoration and transformation of all of creation. We practice the sacraments of Baptism and Communion, both of which Christ participated in Himself. Ours is considered open communion, and all who love Christ, repent of their sins and seek to live in peace with one another are welcome. (All of this comes from various literature from the church)

We are called to witness and to bring His Word to those who haven't yet heard the Good News. We tend to be looked upon as boring and plain in the grand scheme of religion. We don't place our faith in the pomp and circumstance of more formal churches, and we don't dance through the aisles like many modern churches. Our sermons are Bible based. We believe that Christ's word is enough, without the pageantry and bells and whistles. We don't adhere to "gay theology," but we don't turn away gay men and women from our house of worship. We embrace all who seek to know God, and hopefully, we give them the right tools to lead a more Christ-like life. We believe that anything is possible through Christ.

So, that, in a nutshell, is what I believe and how I worship. It makes sense to me, and I find great comfort in it. I don't need a congregation of thousands or the formality of some churches. I don't need TV cameras or a pastor concerned with selling his own CDs. I don't need a pastor who tries to speak on TV every chance he gets and is proud of it. I don't want Christ to be lost in the trimmings.

Please forgive any above typos...I don't have time to proofread!

Christinewjc said...

Hi Neil,

Thanks for sharing all that valuable info! Don't ever worry about writing "too long a comment" here! You are most welcome to share any and all insights you have! I always learn a great deal from your blogposts and comments.

You wrote:

"...but I get so tired of these false teachers calling themselves Christians when they mock the cross and the martyrs every day. The pro-gay theology thing is just another way for them to shake their fists at God."

It is frustrating and sad, but at the same time true! The Lord admonishes us to counter heresy and apostasy when it rises up. Some, in the pro-gay theology movement are "shaking their fists at God" purposely; while others are probably following along blindly because they don't know Scripture and they take these pro-gay "leaders" at their word.

We are warned in Scripture to never follow just any man. We are to follow Jesus Christ and adhere to His Word, the Bible.

Christinewjc said...

Hi Jaded,

Thanks for your explanation of your church denomination and your personal beliefs. I appreciate your willingness to share that here.

At first, I wondered why you felt the need to stand up for the Methodist church. Then, I noticed that Ed Hindson listed the name of "Methodist" in the list of apostate "churches remaining after the rapture." I think he was just sharing several different denominations; not attacking them, in particular.

The fact is, there are individuals in any church on any given day who have not made a decision to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Therefore, those left behind (from any and all divisions of Christendom) would be revealed as those who did not belong to Christ at the time of the rapture.

Therefore, the church I attend (The Rock Church) could also be listed among those churches where there are apostates (as was hinted at in Hindson's book). As I said before, I think he was just giving a variety of denominations to demonstrate that not all people in a church congregation are all automatically saved believers in Christ. It's not the church one attends, it's the decision for Christ that matters.

As far as the gay christian movement (or, pro-gay theology) is concerned, the fact that all who attend adhere to the same, unbiblical error (homosexual behavior is not sin), should be cause for concern within its membership. Such heresy is warned about in Jude.

I know that we disagree on that point, but I must share what is the truth as revealed by Scripture. Recognizing and sharing God's love isn't the only requirement for salvation. We are called to repentance. Repentance means confessing and turning away from sin.

As Jesus said, "if you love me, keep my commandments." Placing a sin above reproach (meaning, too "good" to be criticized and taking such a behavior away from what the Bible identifies as an object of scorn or contempt), using "tolerance" and "inclusion" to keep people from confessing and repenting of any particular sin, and ignoring God's call for holiness and righteousness; can lead those who are following such heresy into eternal judgment.

Not a good thing in my book.

Christinewjc said...

I don't know what is going on, but blogger has been making commenting at my blog difficult for several people. I have had 4 complaints over the last three weeks! Anyway,
DL Foster just emailed the following comment and asked me to post it for him:

Jaded, your comparison of the early Methodists devotion to Christ alone and currently what we are seeing in many denominations is all the more proof that we do like the apostles and hold fast to that which is true. Sometimes I think that's not enough because we are facing an aggressive enemy within... who calls itself by the same name we do, goes to the same churches we do and sings the same songs we do, yet refuses to acknowledge the same God and Christ we do. And perhaps even more dangerous, they want control of the church.

Christine your search and questioning of God on this issue is the same conclusion he led me to. This post is so powerful. This is not just coincidences but a clear indicator that Christ's return is soon. How soon? I don't know. What we do know is that we are to remain ever vigilant, sober and watchful, warning those who are slack and encouraging those who are on the wall to remain faithful.

The false prophet in contrast uses false words usually built around love, acceptance and peace to convince us to abandon our desire to see the Lord's return...or worse be unprepared for it. They (and the evil spirit using them) know the end result of that.

DL Foster

Jaded said...

As I mentioned when explaining our concept of "open communion," all are welcome to participate in that blessed sacrament if they repent their sins. That part is pretty common among most Christian congregations, regardless of denomination. There are those churches, however, which will not allow anyone to take communion if he or she is not a member of that particular congregation. Many Catholic churches are like that. It doesn't matter if you have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior and have asked him to enter your heart and guide your life, you can't take communion there if you're not Catholic. I don't know if all Catholic congregations are like this, but those in my area are. And in case you're wondering, no, my pastor wouldn't offer communion to anyone he knew to be openly homosexual. He would, however, include gay men and women in our congregation and Bible studies and all church activities as a way to reach out and to spread God's Word.

I guess that even though there are guidelines for what it means to be a Methodist per se, not every congregation adheres to them. I know that in my church, salvation includes repenting your sins. We must recognize them and ask for forgiveness. My pastor will meet with you alone if you really feel like you need help and guidance to do this, but for the most part, we don't need to "confess" our sins to anyone but God.

Part of our living tradition and the social aspect of chaging with the times includes things like music, dancing and wine. There was a time in the Methodist church that you weren't allowed to dance, and all music but hymns were banned. Any sort of alcohol was strictly forbidden. This isn't the case any longer. We don't turn anyone away from worshipping with us because how can you lead someone to Christ by telling them that they're not worthy enough to even enter the sanctuary? We are called to lead people to Christ, not drive them away. You can't expect someone to repent and turn away from their sins if you haven't first shown them why it's a sin to begin with, and what the rewards are for repentence...forgiveness, God's grace and a place in the kingdom of God.

My pastor is a wonderful, loving man who loves the Lord. All of his sermons are based strictly on the Bible, and often touch on many of the themes discussed during various Bible study groups throughout the week. I have no doubt in my mind, nor in my heart, that what he teaches is in any way contradictory to what God expects from us. I know that he is guided by the Holy Spirit when he speaks, and that he hasn't led us astray as a congregation. This is the church I grew up in, and one that I left when the former pastor started changing things too much in ways that just didn't quite fit with the Bible as I understand it. This current pastor was the assistant when I was a teenager, and once he was assigned back here as the head pastor, I rejoined that congregation. I've been in Methodist congregations that seemed very lax, for lack of a better term, and that concerns me.

I think my biggest problem with hammering the point of homosexuality being a sin is the fact that often it's done in such a way as to imply that it's the greatest sin. It says very clearly in the Bible that sin is sin is sin, period. It bothers me to see entire "ministries" dedicated to only one issue, when there are so many others facing the world today. There are people who will waive a finger at the gay community and feel superior, because "at least I'm not gay!" It's as if, for many, being heterosexual absolves them of responsibility for the rest of their actions. It doesn't. We, as Christians, need to be vigilant in ALL areas, not just focus on one thing at the exclusion of all others. As we've said many times here, the gate is a narrow one. Being heterosexual isn't the only thing necessary to make it through.

Christinewjc said...

Another emailed post from DL:

Jaded, I understand your uneasiness with discussing homosexuality. Please understand that everyone doesn't have that issue. And certainly not those in the gay christian movement. This is all they talk about. Would you tell them not to talk about it also?

Let's be clear, we are discussing false doctrine perpetrated by the gay christian movement and their allies.

There is nothing in scripture that allows or encourages us to love, tolerate or accept false prophets and their false doctrines.

Being gay does not exempt you from examination if you are spreading or embracing teachings contrary to sound doctrine.

This is not about heterosexuality or homosexuality per se, its about an adherence to holiness.

Sexual conduct outside of that model given to us by God the Father is wrong and when it is taught to others as right, it creates division in God's house. Please make sure you get your bearings on this and don't be deceived with smooth words and intoxicating logic. No one gets a free pass to push false doctrine. Not me, not you, not anybody.

DL Foster

Christinewjc said...

Jaded wrote:

I think my biggest problem with hammering the point of homosexuality being a sin is the fact that often it's done in such a way as to imply that it's the greatest sin.

Perhaps the reason it appears this way to you is because it is a sin that is being "challenged" so to speak, by not only secular America but those who adhere to the gay christian movement and philosophy. We don't see such challenges when it comes down to other sins.

I just read an article written by Lauren Green of Fox News on this topic. She discusses the topic in a very "politically correct" manner and reaches a conclusion that you might agree with. However, she didn't negate the fact that homosexual behavior is sin:

But let's get back to the central theme of the blog, which is "Does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin?" Now, please be aware that people of faith reading the same Bible have come away with different interpretations of the verses on homosexuality. I have read the Bible completely nearly twice. From the many verses referring to homosexuality, it is quite clear from what I can see that the Bible does speak against homosexuality as one of the many sins of the flesh that humans fall into.

But in the very next paragraph, she states:

"So the question that plagues me is if that's true, what happens with all of the scientific evidence and anecdotal testimonies of people who say that they have not chosen to be gay or lesbian, that they were born that way — that God made them that way?"

Note that there is nothing said about ex-gays. That would be to politically incorrect! But we know that ex-gays exist. Many have been freed from homosexual behavior and identity through the power of conversion through Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The pro-gay scientific elites may not hold that as legitimate, but people of faith do. Plus, there are legitimate scientific studies done through NARTH that counter the false belief that "gays can't change."

Most important of all, Jaded, is the fact that this post isn't even about all of that. DL Foster has stated it well in his two comments here. Ultimately, it comes down to it being a spiritual battle. Lauren Green hints at this in her article, but doesn't follow through on this important point. Her article was more of a political viewpoint that tends towards the "I want everyone to feel good about what I wrote here" and ends without offending anyone. That's all well and good in the journalism world, but when it comes to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and what is revealed in the Bible, NO ONE can come away with not feeling "offended." Salvation requires confession and repentance of "deeds of the flesh." Many want to avoid this fact like the plague! But the fleshly deeds "profits nothing."

Jhn 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Jam 4:14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

Jesus own words tell us what is most important in this debate. It's not about who is "right" or "wrong." It's about the salvation offer that Christ gives to us. Friends don't let friends miss heaven...

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

So, we must decide if we are going to tell God's truth on the subject of homosexual behavior, or stand on the politically correct sidelines and watch our kindness, tolerance, and silence send people into eternity without God.

Jam 4:15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

Jam 4:16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

Jam 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Christinewjc said...

We have seen how disagreement over this issue has caused division within several Christian denominations.

I ask anyone who is willing to answer.

Who is behind these attempts at division?

Who is behind the call to compromise?

What kind of "being" would lead souls away from salvation through deception?

What kind of being would minimize the Cross of Christ and, instead, use a pseudo kind of "love," "peace," "pride of self," "tolerance," and place doubt in minds about the Bible by asking "did God REALLY SAY..."; all the while appearing to those who have been deceived as "an angel of light"?

What kind of "spirit" would use the following descriptions that the Bible warns us to avoid?

1. abandon the faith (1 Timothy 4:1)
2. follow deceiving spirits (1 Timothy 4:1)
3. doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1)
4. hypocritical liars (1 Timothy 4:2)
5. lovers of themselves (2 Timothy 3:2)
6. lovers of money (2 Timothy 3:2) [Note from Chris: Benny Hinn, anyone?]
7. boastful, proud, abusive, unholy (2 Timothy 3:2)
8. lovers of pleasure (2 Timothy 3:4)
9. deceitful workmen (2 Corinthians 11:13)
10. pervert the gospel of Christ (Galatians 1:7)
11. destructive heresies (2 Peter 2:1)
12. shameful ways (2 Peter 2:2)
13. deceivers (2 John 7)
14. godless men (Jude 4)
15. Christ-deniers (Jude 4)

Didn't Jesus tell us over and over again that He is not of this WORLD?

Then, ask yourself why does the gay christian movement (or, pro-gay theology) look so much like (and agree with much of) the secular, humanistic WORLDview?

Mark said...

I do love you jaded, and as a Methodist church member and leader in my local church I see and hear what you have expressed. My pastor and I are very close and we differ greatly on our approach and urgency regarding this matter. He does however, against our own female VA bishop's thinking, remains a biblical servant in my opinion.

DL and Christine have said it quite well!

I say to you jaded we cannot deny the authority of scripture, nor the absolute need for repentance (which the methodist church denied this past conference in VA). We cannot ignore the Biblical command to seperate our church fellowship with those who deny Biblical authority nor accept those who refuse the biblical understanding of repentance and sin.

Love is not acceptance. Love is proclaiming the word of God and Christ on the cross. Membership, money, etc...mean absolutely nothing when compared to a heart in need of God's truth and grace. Much of our church leadership has lost sight of God's power and has laid claims to false doctrine and false converts to Christ. Shame on us who remain silent!

God's holiness can never be reduced to a man made standard no matter how we feel about those who reject it. Eliminating homosexual desires or a host of other desires / sins is not the goal! Accepting sin, replacing God's holiness, questioning the authority and wisdom of God's perfect unchanging word, is the work of Satan. It is so easy to do when we start putting a fleshly worldly feeling over God's commands.

We must persevere to the end. (See the book of Hebrews). We must be willing to die, willing to suffer, willing to continue our hope and faith in Christ's shed blood this side of heaven, not the here and now! To do that, our hearts and minds must never compromise God's truths, and we must stop feeding ourselves and others on the nipple a infant needs, and start feeding on God's word which is solid food for eternal life. Otherwise we will be fooled by false teachings, false converts, and false doctrine. The fact is, most will not make it to heaven. Most will go to hell. Screw the open hearts, open minds, and open doors marketing campaign.

Let us, those who are saved, do God's will and proclaim with boldness the need for repentance, the wrath of God, and the saving grace of Christ on the Cross for all mankind. Then and only then will you act in true love and serve God's lost children in need.

I also believe it was John Wesley that said it was indeed the law of God that prepared the heart for grace. If the law of God gets changed by Man, how can we have His grace? That is what the GCM is all about, changing, reducing God's eternal law and holiness to meet a worldly desire. Satan has not changed a bit! eh?

Christinewjc said...

Thanks everyone (Neil, Jaded, DL, Mark) for your excellent comments and conversation points in this thread. I hope that our ongoing conversations bless everyone involved.

I know it must seem like I have abandoned this thread (as well as my blog!) over the last few days, but it is for a good reason. I have been very busy trying to find an apartment/condo/home for rent for my college aged daughter and her roommates. ITS SO HARD TO FIND SOMETHING NICE YET AFFORDABLE IN CALIFORNIA!!!!

Ahhh....I feel better. Needed to rant a bit!

Hope to be back to blogging soon. I have some great posts coming up.


MICKY said...

The Lord knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile. Psalm 94:11
It is important to note that Bill Wilson’s faith system was not based on Jesus Christ and Him crucified; nor is there any mention of Jesus Christ being the Savior from his sin. Both he and Bob Smith (co-founder of AA) embraced and promoted a variety of spiritual experiences, which included practicing spiritualism and conversing with the dead (which the Bible forbids) and being heavily involved in séances. Wilson also acted as a medium or channeler. It was while involved in these types of religious experiences, not Biblical Christianity, that Wilson developed his Twelve Steps (Pass It On, pp 156, 198, 275, 278).

Christinewjc said...


Thanks for your thoughtful, biblical and compassionate words directed towards Jaded; at least I hope that she will view your comment in that manner.

Hello Micky,

Welcome to Talkwisdom!

I am sorry to read that the founders of AA have drifted away from true, Biblical, Christian faith (that is, if they originally were true to the faith in the beginning). How sad it is when people drift into, and then follow, man-made "traditions" that skew their theology away from the truth of God's Word!

How unfortunate!! I have read that AA has often been foundational in getting people away from the physical addiction of alcoholism. But sending them in the wrong direction of "spiritualism," rather than towards the cross of Jesus Christ just places them (or leaves them) in spiritual oblivion.