This week, I will be working on a series of postings under the title of "New Think." I will be sharing how some Christians can be persuaded to either veer away, or simply choose not to get involved with what John MacArthur labeled in his book as
"The Truth War - Fighting for Certainty in an Age of Deception."The irony will be made clear that those who follow this kind of "New Think" are actually falling for some of the oldest tricks in Satan's
arsenal of deception. My first post may take a while. Two days, in fact. In the meantime, I want to bring over a very interesting conversation that was started by
Sothenes over at my
Talk Wisdom message board. There have been 162 views, so there is a public interest in the current
bantering written there.
The following is a copy of the posts (so far), as of 3/8/10 at 10:42 a.m. Additional replies and comments will be added here when posted over at the message board. Comments by Talk Wisdom blog readers are welcomed here, as well.
Christine
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Sothenes
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Atheists become God
Don Carson - What Is Sin And How Is It Different From Idolatry?Atheism becomes your supreme good and replaces the God who is there and that becomes god for you because that is idolatry.
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Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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GMpilot
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Strike one!
No, Sothenes; the 'supreme good' is to help others.If you can supply any evidence that any god--Zeus, Odin, Marduk, YHWH, or any other--is "there"--provide it. That's all I ask. Now pay attention, because there'll be a quiz later. Atheism means "without belief in a god or gods". If you can explain to us how not believing in a god makes that person into a god, please do so. Then you can tell us how that disbelief translates as 'sin'. I certainly don't worship myself, I don't demand that anyone else do so, and would be embarrassed if anyone did.I'm not like some supernatural beings who command you to acknowledge them.Given that our hostess won't post my reply for days after yours, this may take some time. That's okay; I'll wait as long as it takes for an answer.__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"
Ghostbusters"
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admin (Christine)
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Again, God's Word says it best:
Rom 1:17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, [fn] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Sorry GM - you are without excuse for not knowing Him through the evidence of His Son, Jesus Christ, - according to God's Word.
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See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Colossians 2:8
The eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong to those whose hearts are fully committed to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
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GMpilot
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Strike two!
Quote:
admin: Sorry GM - you are without excuse for not knowing Him
through the evidence of His Son, Jesus Christ, - according to God's
Word.
Sorry, admin--I don't need excuses. I have reasons, which are a whole lot better.
I see no evidence of any God, and never have. I have no reason to believe one exists. Jesus, who is claimed to be his son, almost certainly did exist, but his divinity is doubtful. No one has produced evidence of it; not Paul, not you. All you have are assertions, which you call faith.
Citing Jesus Christ as evidence to prove the existence of God is like claiming Robin the Boy Wonder as evidence to prove the existence of Batman!
Besides...if I, as an atheist, 'become' God...I couldn't believe in myself, either! Sorry, I'm just not that debased.
__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"
Ghostbusters"
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admin (Christine)
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A reasonable faith
GM wrote:
Quote:
Jesus, who is claimed to be his son, almost certainly did exist, but his divinity is doubtful. No one has produced evidence of it; not Paul, not you. All you have are assertions, which you call faith.
No evidence? How about an empty tomb? How about the fact that after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, he was seen by all of the disciples plus 500 more people?
Yes. I have faith. Based on the Bible's teachings - it is indeed a reasonable faith.
__________________
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Colossians 2:8
The eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong to those whose hearts are fully committed to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
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Re: Post #9471
Quote:
CJW: No evidence? How about an empty tomb?
An empty tomb is just that: an empty tomb. Tutankhamen isn't in his tomb anymore, either.
Quote:
How about the fact that after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, he was seen by all of the disciples plus 500 more people?
Where and when did the latter event take place? We know about the disciples (and we all know that Thomas didn't believe it until he actually saw Jesus, right?). AFAIK, we have only Paul's word on it, and even he never claimed that he saw it himself. Who among that crowd wrote down what he saw? No one. Who's the only one who speaks of it? No one...except a guy who didn't see it himself.
I think it's glorified hearsay...but if you consider it reasonable, fine. I'm not convinced.
__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"
Ghostbusters"
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Sothenes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMpilot
Besides...if I, as an atheist, 'become' God...I couldn't believe in myself, either! Sorry, I'm just not that debased.
Quote:
The Causes of Atheism
Fatherlessness
It was Sigmund Freud who hypothesized that belief in God was simply the product of a psychological need of a loving father. However, as Spiegel notes, calling largely upon the research of Paul Vitz’s The Faith of the Fatherless (1999), Freud provides a basis for suspecting that atheism, in many cases, is actually the result of the resentment the atheist harbors toward his or her own father, in turn, justifying his rejection of a God.
Vitz’s work is highlighted throughout this chapter to sustain the large list of atheists who had lost their father early in life (David Hume, Arthur Schopenhauer, Friedrich Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell, Jean-Paul Sartre, and Albert Camus) or who had fathers that we abusive or weak (Voltaire, H.G. Wells, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, Ludwig Feuerbach, Sigmund Freud, and Albert Ellis).
One of the most interesting sections of this chapter centered around the new atheists and their relationships with their fathers:
“What about the new atheists? Do they confirm this thesis? We know that Daniel Dennett’s father died in plane crash in 1947, when Dennett was just five years old…Christopher Hitchen’s father appears to have been very distant…tragically, when Hitchens was twenty-four, his mother killed herself in a suicide pact with lover. After his mother’s death, Hitchens says, “I no longer really had a family,” which is an especially sad statement considering his father was still alive. As for Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, there is very little information available regarding their relationships with their fathers.” [p. 68-69]
The author admits that “the psychological dynamics of atheism are very complex, but the impact of the father relationship does appear to be profound…Human beings were made in God’s image, and the father-child relationship mirrors that of humans as God’s “offspring.” We unconsciously (and often consciously, depending on one’s worldview) conceive of God after the pattern of our earthy father.” [p. 68-69]
Moral Depravity
I found this section to most fascinating. Spiegel challenges the reader with the idea that many of the most intelligent men and women reject God because of their moral depravity. Moreover, he makes the astute connection that an intellectual’s work is clearly impacted by one’s personal conduct. In fact, in many cases, the intellectual’s work is often the muse in which he or she attempts to justify his or her repugnant behavior.
Spiegel proceeds to quote E. Michael Jones to sustain this point:
“There are ultimately only two alternatives in the intellectual life: either one conforms desire to the truth or one conforms truth to desire. These two positions represent opposite poles between which a continuum of almost infinite gradations exist.” [p. 74]
The author then continues by providing numerous examples of many well-respected intellectuals of the past that clearly have “conformed the truth” to their largely sexual desires and in turn have corrupted their scholarly work as well:
“God delivers the sexually immoral over to a depraved mind. Jones sums it up well: “Sexual sins are corrupting…The most insidious corruption brought about by sexual sin, however, is the corruption of the mind. One moves all too easily from sexual sins, which are probably the most common to mankind, to intellectual sins, which are the most pernicious.” [p. 80]
As this chapter closes, the topic of faith is freshly revisited by considering the works of nineteenth-century Harvard philosopher William James.
Spiegel writes:
“James makes his point by using the illustration of a mountain climber who is unsure as to whether he can make it safely across a difficult pass. If he succeeds, he will go on to safety. But if he fails, death awaits. Can he make it? He will never know either way until he actually ventures. James makes a similar point about many philosophical issues, where the evidence alone is inconclusive. The lesson he draws is that faith is practically necessary. He concludes, ‘In the average man…the power to trust, to risk a little beyond the evidence, is an essential function…We cannot live or think at all without some degree of faith.’” [p. 83-84]
Indeed; this is true for the theologian, philosopher, and the atheist.
The Obstinacy of Atheism
Admittedly, many times when I am dialoguing with an atheist, I feel like I am talking with someone from another world. And I certainly realize that they most likely feel the same way about talking to me!
Drawing upon the now famous work of physicist Thomas Kuhn in his classic book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Spiegel attempts to use Kuhn’s concept of a “paradigm” to help the reader understand the atheist position better. He notes that the atheistic paradigm (a set of assumptions, definitions, laws, and techniques) must “reject as false…all references to miracles, souls, divine authority of Scripture, or personal experience of God.” Further, Spiegel admittedly writes that:
“…theists and atheists, in a sense, live in different worlds. God is at the center of the theist’s worldview, and this colors his or her every experience and value judgment. On the other hand, the axis of a worldview without God is necessarily the self, and the atheist’s values and personal experience are shaped accordingly.” [p. 101]
Spiegel continues by stating:
“The difference in perspective is compounded when we consider the concept of spiritual discernment, which is granted only to those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. As Paul writes, “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor 2:14). [p. 102].
As this chapter ends, Spiegel assesses John Calvin’s sensus divinitatis. According to Calvin, the sensus divinitatis refers to every human’s natural awareness of God that is inborn or innate.
Spiegel notes:
“Somehow, each of us comes into this world equipped with what we might call a spiritual “antenna,” to use yet another analogy. As one matures, this antenna becomes operational, usually beginning in early childhood. Many parents, like myself, can attest to the natural ability in children to understand and respond to the reality of God.” [p. 107]
The author believes that this concept of sensus divinitatis provides insight into the reason that many atheists seem incapable of sensing or thinking clearly about God. Simply put, their minds are suffering from the effects of sin. Drawing upon the argumentation of Plantinga once again, Spiegel explains that the non-believer’s mind has a type of “cognitive malfunction” that hinders their mind from working in the way it was created to.
Spiegel goes on to explain:
“What causes malfunction in any system always comes back to the fall. Sin and its consequences have wreaked havoc on the world, and human cognition is no exception. In short, sin disrupts our ability to think straight…discussion of such issues is outside the scope of this book, but it is worth noting that the noetic effects of sin extend far beyond theological matters. Cognition about God is only the most immediately impacted by sin.” [p. 111]
Spiegel ends this chapter by summarizing the overall case made in the book:
"The descent into atheism is caused by a complex of moral-psychological factors, not a perceived lack of evidence for God’s existence. The atheist willfully rejects God, though this is precipitated by immoral indulgences and typically a broken relationship with his or her father. Thus, the choice of the atheistic paradigm is motivated by non-rational factors, some of which are psychological and some of which are moral in nature…
The hardening of the atheistic mind-set occurs through cognitive malfunction due to two principal causes. First, atheists suffer from paradigm-induced blindness…second, atheists suffer from damage to the sensus divinitatis, so their natural awareness of God is severely impeded. Both of these mechanisms are aspects of the noetic effects of sin.” [p. 113-114].
Truth Bomb Blogspot__________________
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Conclusion?
An interesting read, Sothenes.
So where in these parameters do you think I fit?__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"
Ghostbusters"
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Sothenes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMpilot
An interesting read, Sothenes.
So where in these parameters do you think I fit?
That is a determination you are going to have to make.
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Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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GMpilot
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Re: Post # 9495
Quote:
Sothenes:
That is a determination you are going to have to make.
You've made the determination, Sothenes, not I.
You've posted an extensive quote about the perceived motivations and causes of atheism. You listed 'fatherlessness', 'moral depravity', and 'obstinacy'.
Your source mentions something about “damage to the sensus divinitatis” (is there such a thing?), and something about “the noetic effects of sin.” (It sounds very much like Spiegel is of the Martin Luther school of noetics: Reason is dangerous, and must be submerged or destroyed.)
Yet when I ask you which of these you think applies to me, you suddenly get all coy and say that I have to determine what I'm suffering from!
If you're going to insult me, do it like you mean it, instead of couching it in such eunuchoid phrases.
If you're not going to insult me, just answer the question. It was a simple one, after all.
__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"Ghostbusters"
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admin
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jumping in
GM,
You are suffering from the ravages of sin. Period. We all are. However, Jesus Christ has shown us the way of truth to get us out of the predicament of punishment for our own sins upon our own souls. It depends upon how one answers Jesus' question:
"Who do you say that I am?"
And once you determine the answer to that question, it depends on whether or not you believe Jesus's claim:
"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by Me."
Once you agree (or disagree) with Jesus' proclamation, then you choose your destiny for all eternity.
You are suffering from eternal separation from God. It is what all men and women suffer from, until they become born again in Christ (see John 3).
So you see, GM, it doesn't really matter what Sothenes or I, or any other Christian "thinks" brought you towards your atheism/skepticism/rejection of Christ and God's Word, etc. What matters is whether or not you will continue to reject the only Savior who can heal you and be the bridge back for you - unto God the Father.
__________________
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8
The eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong to those whose hearts are fully committed to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
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GMpilot
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004
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We've been here before, hostess, but I'll say it again.Quote:
It depends upon how one answers Jesus' question:
"Who do you say that I am?"
A wise man? So it is said.
An extraordinary teacher? So I've been told.
The Son of God? I don't believe it.
Quote:
And once you determine the answer to that question, it depends on whether or not you believe Jesus's claim:
"I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except by Me."
Okay: I don't. Because those words mean that the story of Ezekiel is just a story; and if Ezekiel is true, then Jesus' words are not. Christers have to believe both. I don't have that dilemma.Quote:
Once you agree (or disagree) with Jesus' proclamation, then you choose your destiny for all eternity.
"Who do you say that I am?" isn't a proclamation, just a question. And in the stories built around that question, Jesus proclaimed nothing; in fact, he advised his followers to also not proclaim anything.
Except for the past few decades, I have no idea where I spent eternity. I have no memories of it. I fully expect it to be the same a few decades from now.Quote:
You are suffering from eternal separation from God. It is what all men and women suffer from, until they become born again in Christ (see John 3).
There are Buddhist and Muslim and Jewish and Hindu believers who'd claim the same about you. I'm no more impressed by that statement than they are—less, in fact.Quote:
So you see, GM, it doesn't really matter what Sothenes or I, or any other Christian "thinks" brought you towards your atheism/skepticism/rejection of Christ and God's Word, etc. What matters is whether or not you will continue to reject the only Savior who can heal you and be the bridge back for you - unto God the Father.
You could have stopped after “thinks”. Because it's not only Christ and God's Word I reject; it's the 'etc' as well—the Buddhist and Muslim and Jewish and Hindu 'words'. All equally fanciful, all contradictory, all citing a false authority.
See you next year, when you bring this up again.__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"Ghostbusters"
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admin
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We have been here - many times.
You have made your position very clear, GM. But for the purpose of telling you why it doesn't matter what Sothenes and I (or other Christians) think led to your atheism/skepticism/non-belief/hatred for the God of the Bible/non-belief in Christ's deity, I wrote what I wrote here in this thread.
You have your reasons for non-belief. I have my reasons for steadfast belief in the Truth that Jesus Christ reveals.
Sometimes, a devotional becomes a better tool to share why I personally believe as I do:
Quote:
Daily Light on the Daily Path Devotional
Monday March 8, 2010
http://bible.christiansunite.com/devotionals.shtml
Evening
I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able.
Able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think.
Able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work.
Able to succour them that are tempted.
Able . . . to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the
presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
Able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Believe ye that I am able to do this? . . . According to your faith be it unto you.
2Ti 1:12 Eph 3:20 2Co 9:8 Heb 2:18 7:25 Jude 1:24 2Ti 1:12 Php 3:21 Mt 9:28,29
__________________
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8
The eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong to those whose hearts are fully committed to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
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Hat Tips to all links.
Special Hat Tip to Sothenes who shared Don Carson's Youtube video which started this conversation.
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Update @ 11:31 a.m. PT:
The Pilot is on a roll!*******
GMpilot
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Okay, so here we go again
Quote:
...for the purpose of telling you why it doesn't matter...I wrote what I wrote here in this thread.
And I wrote to tell you why I don't agree with that. Whatever happened to an "agree to disagree" standoff?
Quote:
You have your reasons for non-belief.
Exactly.Quote:
I have my reasons for steadfast belief in the Truth that Jesus Christ reveals.
Fine. I have my reasons to think that the 'Truth' wasn't revealed only by him.
That's all I'm sayin'. But you have to go put all that “atheism/skepticism/non-belief/hatred for the God of the Bible/non-belief in Christ's deity” on it. Because I don't believe in something, I automatically hate it? C'mon! I don't believe in Scientology either, and I laugh at such beliefs!
Are you ticked because you believe I'm laughing at yours?__________________
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth." --H L Mencken
"When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes." --"Ghostbusters"
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