Wednesday, November 01, 2006

Stephen W. Has Left This Blog?

I met Stephen W. over at the Garden Guy website (which is another story in itself). He seemed willing to discuss our differences over what the Bible has to say about homosexual behavior. Our conversations started out nice and respectful (which is sometimes very difficult to do in the blogosphere when two worldviews on this topic clash), but I always had the feeling in the back of my mind that one day he might just end up storming out of here.

Why?

Because I tend to ask the difficult questions on this issue. I have had several of these kinds of debates with advocates of the gay-Christian movement and ideology, but have (unfortunately) found that most will not listen to any reasonable, Biblical arguments that negate what they tend to profess.

In a former thread on this blog, Stephen W. said the following:


Christine, as I have said before, I think you need to read more about this homosexuality in the Bible business before making sweeping statements as you do.

I recommended "What the Bible Really says about Homosexuality". Without reading that, you really can't discuss this sensibly. Many of us believe that there are homosexual relationships (or, at least, sacred covenant relationships between same-sex partners) that are endorsed by God in the Bible (both old and new testaments).

Also, just as you take liberties with your interpretation of Paul's words to refer to a specific group of women performing specific acts at a specific time (not all Biblical scholars agree with you there), we make the same claims with Paul's words elsewhere. We believe the homosexual behaviour he is talking about (and the homosexual behaviour spoken about in the old testament) is behaviour specifically related to temple prostitution, which amounts to idolatry.

Please read that book.

If you don't feel like it, then I guess this link will have to do. It's woefully out of date and doesn't go into enough depth on Romans, but it's good enough for now.

I hope to write my own "gay apologetics" essay, in much the same style as your "women apologetics" essay. But that will take me a while. :)


After I read that, I thought to myself, he's not going to like my reply. I knew that the cordial niceties would have to end in order to speak the truth on this matter.

My reply:


I do not need to read that book. In some form or another (i.e. online, in books, at seminars etc.) I have probably read or heard the pro-gay arguments that liberal theologians have created in order to justify homosexual behavior.

A common example is the misrepresentation of the brotherly love and friendship that David and Jonathan had despite the fact that Saul wanted David killed. What those verses have represented for thousands of years have only recently been twisted into saying something different.

This is just one example of liberal ideologists turning the Word of God and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent, into their own image rather than humbly submitting, repenting, and reflecting the true image and likeness of Jesus Christ as born again believers.

In another thread, I noticed that you wanted to write a "gay apologetics" essay. Sorry Stephen. There is nothing to support such an idea in Scripture...absolutely nothing!

You have been duped into believing a heaping cauldron of lies, instigated long ago by the enemy of our souls and, unfortuately, currently being used by false teachers that have infiltrated some denominations of the Christian churches.

I know that this is very difficult for you to accept and face since you are "happy" in your current beliefs. But realize one extremely important fact.

God doesn't call for us to be happy...but to be holy! Jesus reiterates this when he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Christ's death on the cross saves us from the punishment for our sins. By keeping his commandments, we are showing Him day by day that we love Him! His plea for us to keep the commandments doesn't save us, but He is telling us the importance of sanctification and striving for holiness in our lives!

But one of the most awesome things that I have realized since I dumped those sins that used to keep me in bondage is that I am happier now than I ever was while wallowing in rebellion towards God through those former sins! I have met countless Christians who have said the same thing. The sinful acts that used to give them (and me) pleasure...for a season...are now worthless and repulsive to them! Isn't that amazing how Jesus Christ can change the heart of a person from the inside (Holy Spirit) to the outside (leaving former life of sin)?

My friend Stephen B. (the other Stephen who posts on this blog) knows all about this. You would do well to seek his help in your same-sex attraction struggle. I love the verse that he often quotes:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


Stephen B. is a living example of that verse. Many people are. I pray that you will find it in your heart to seek the truth just as Stephen B. did.

God bless,
Christine

P.S. It is my hope and prayer that you will study the Scriptures more diligently to seek the truth for yourself. I realize that you will not take my word for it and you probably shouldn't. But seek out the Scriptures, on their own without any gay-behavior affirming propaganda and you will find the truth and the truth will set you free.

We are urged not to be led away from God's honest truth. The book of Jude warns us of this very thing that you are currently believing and following within the gay-behavior-affirming church.

For more on this issue, Al Mohler has a great article at his blog which describes the dangers of veering away from Scriptural truth through theological liberalism.


I knew that he would probably respond in anger to my post. But I also felt that it was time to share the truth of the Bible when he stated that he was going to post a "gay apologetic" essay to somehow prove his opinion here. I didn't think that he would choose to cease posting altogether, but that appears to be the choice that he has made.

Therefore, I am posting some final comments here. These are comments that I once shared with a blogger named Deb. But they apply just as well to the conversation between Stephen W. and I.

Here's what I shared with Deb (including some slight variations for the purpose of replying to Stephen W.) :

Yes. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. However, when we are born again, we are to pursue holiness. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Jesus was speaking about Christian believers. This was not said in a way to mean that "keeping the commandments" will result in salvation. Nor, does it mean that not "keeping the commandments" will result in loss of salvation. I am a believer in "once saved, always saved." The Bible reiterates that message in many passages.

However, where we have parted company in the past is in the fact that condemnation for homosexual behavior on those who have not been born again in Christ Jesus remains. Teaching that there is no need to confess that homosexual behavior is sin means that the person who may think they are saved may not, in fact, be saved.

Why?

Because they are not repenting of a behavior that is condemned as sin in the Bible.

If someone refused to confess and repent of murder, would you consider them born again in Christ? Of course not. If that person does not view his/her particular sinful act as wrong, he/she will see no need to confess it to God.

Yes. Heterosexual Christians sin and (unfortunately) often do the things that you ( [she], meaning Deb) stated in your [her] blogpost. If they continue in willful disobedience (often called backsliding) and purposely desire to ignore Christ's admonition that "if you love me, keep my commandments," then for the born-again Christian believer, it will mean a loss of rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ.

However, for the non-believer, the situation is dire. They will not have the grace, mercy and forgiveness afforded by Christ at the cross for their sin and will die with their own sins on their souls. They will face an eternity separated from God and suffer condemnation for those sins at the Great White Throne Judgment.

There is quite a lot of difference between a backsliding Christian believer and one who willfully refuses to repent of one's sin(s)...whatever such sin(s)they may be.

Jesus didn't condemn the woman caught in adultery. He shamed those who were ready to stone her by pointing out "let he who is without sin cast the first stone at her. He was pointing out the fact that they needed to repent of their own sins. However, he didn't condone the adulterous woman's sin either. He told her, specifically, "Go and leave your life of sin."

During Christ's ministry on earth up to this present time, we are in the midst of the grace and mercy era. It wasn't time for Christ to extend judgment. That event will happen at his second coming. However, as believers we belong to him and we are to live righteously and godly in this age.

Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

It is easy to think that Mark [another Christian blogger at Deb's site] and I are trying to hurt you and all homosexual people. But that isn't the case with me and, although I can't speak for him, as my brother in Christ, I don't see that as being the case with Mark, either. But this is, unfortunately, how non-Christians often view biblically based evangelicals who are trying to share the gospel.

As evidenced here at your blog, they may be drawn to God (which is a good thing, of course!) through all that is shared about the good news of mercy, grace and love, but they want to skip over the bad news of our woeful state of sin and the need for repentance part. But that is what the cross of Christ is about. It is about both.

At this point, I feel that it is vitally important for me to say that I am not claiming that Stephen W. [or Deb] are not saved. That is between God and them. Only God knows for sure. We can get a glimpse by noting, "by their fruits you shall know them." But even then, only God has that 100% knowledge about where each person will spend eternity...through the salvation offered through His Son, Jesus Christ, or into the eternal state of separation from God forever.

I do want to point out that although people may be saved, if they are guilty of spreading false doctrine, or any type of heresies, they may be leading others away from the true gospel of salvation. That is the danger! As I had stated before:


If they (meaning saved believers) continue in willful disobedience (often called backsliding) and purposely desire to ignore Christ's admonition that "if you love me, keep my commandments," then for the born-again Christian believer, it will mean a loss of rewards at the Judgment seat of Christ.

However, for the non-believer, the situation is dire. They will not have the grace, mercy and forgiveness afforded by Christ at the cross for their sin and will die with their own sins on their souls. They will face an eternity separated from God and suffer condemnation for those sins at the White Throne Judgment.


Because I often strive to end my blogposts on a positive note, I wanted to share that what Satan often tries to do to divide us, can be turned around and used for our redemption!

Stephen W. will probably continue to disagree with me on the "gay-behavior-affirming" Christian issue. However, we do have the gospel of Christ in common, and on that we can rest and go in peace as we go our separate ways.

I have often said that, "teaching and sharing Jesus Christ and Him crucified," as Paul tells us in I Corinthians, is the uniting force between divided denominations. It is for that reason that I continually remind people of this fact.

1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


In the past, I have posted the following deep, theological comment. I have found that most people don't even want to touch it with an answer. Anyone here have the courage to do so? I hope you will!


In a commentary that I read years ago. I personally found the following thoughts to be quite startling. Christian believers, I wonder what each of you might think of it?


Here it is:


Remember when satan tempted Jesus in the desert and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, turn these stones into bread."

The lecturer then said, "I always wondered why Jesus didn't just go ahead and turn satan into a loaf of bread!"

If a good God allows satan to exist, then He can bring a greater good out of his existence than his non-existence.

Charles Williams says, "satan is a son of mystery and since God suffers him to be, he too is God's minister and labors for some good by us not understood."

I thought that was a deep and profound insight! What do you think?

Taking that idea a step further, we see that God took the most heinous act in human history...the crucifixion of His Son, and turned it on itself...making it the greatest demonstration of His love and grace to us.

Satan's initial, perceived "victory" turned into an eternal crushing defeat! Christ's victorious defeat of satan's affects on sin, evil and death were forever destroyed. Every soul who comes to Christ enjoys that victory with Him!

*******

Update at 10:51 a.m.

It appears that Stephen W. deleted his comment that said he was leaving!

Hope reigns eternal!

Psa 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.


Col 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6
Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

22 comments:

Stacy L. Harp said...

OUTSTANDING! I'm so glad I've found your blog. You are now a daily read and I totally look forward to the other things you will be writing.

Blessings,

Stacy L. Harp
www.stacylharp.com
www.blogforbooks.com

ebsfwan said...

I find it rather amusing that you and Stephen are both arguing for your own interpretation of events that happened thousands of years ago.

We cannot and do not apply the moral code of the early Christians to our lives today. Are we (as a society) more moral than our founding Christian fathers? I would argue yes.

Slavery is considered normal in the Bible - immoral now.
Women are to be seen and not heard - immoral now.
Divorce is forbidden - seems fairly normal now.
Homosexuality - who knows.

I've never really understood why Christians (and I'm one) in particular are so against gay marriage.

Being gay is part of the human condition. Some of us may not like it but there it is. I'd rather that two gay people became committed to each other and had a union instead of going around and being promiscuous. Same for heterosexual folks.

I think, rather than fighting against Gay marriage, which, statistically, is likely to be insignificant, we should be fighting how easy it is to get married now. Divorce rates are sky high. This tells me that marriage is devalued already.

Stephen said...

Christine, I am glad you acknowledge that you're the one who stopped being "cordial".

What upset me is not that your views differ from mine (we all have our disagreements every now and again), but that you are not willing to even listen. You refuse to read the material I recommended, you refuse to even look at the exegesis of the words in question.

Any discussion I have with you is therefore one-sided. I have read all the anti-gay stuff. I have listened to people like you who tell me something I believe is a gift from God is (in your eyes) a sign that the end is coming and that the Rapture is imminent.

I have been to ex-gay sites and although I have never subjected myself to the ex-gay experience, I know many "failed" ex-gays who say it's very damaging to themselves and their faith.

You quote Bible verses to support your case, but you refuse to even look at the Bible verses that support mine.

You indulge in "interpretation" of Paul's words to support your own views on women, but will not indulge me in mine. There is a word for that.

The saddest thing for me, though, the thing that really makes me upset, is that when I read your words, they don't make me want to become straight, they make me question my faith.

You cause me to stumble in my walk with Christ, Christine, due to nothing but your ignorance.

I guess you feel glad at this. Perhaps you feel like you've turned another sinner away from the pearly gates.

My faith is stronger than that, though, I have been through far worse :)

Much love

Stephen

Mark said...

Christine,
Brilliant!

Without the knowledge and experience of suffering, we cannot rejoice in Heavenly gifts, and more importantly Christ's work on the Cross for all willing to live by faith! All things work for the Glory of God, and that includes Hell.

If I may:

The saddest thing for me, though, the thing that really makes me upset, is that when I read your words, they don't make me want to become straight, they make me question my faith.

That, stephen, is God at Work!

You cause me to stumble in my walk with Christ, Christine, due to nothing but your ignorance.

That, stephen, is Satan appealing to your worldly flesh and wisdom, in other words, Satan at Work!

Perhaps you feel like you've turned another sinner away from the pearly gates.

No Christian, no Church, no particular faith, no Man or no woman is responsible for Saving anyone stephen.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Your eternity is personal. You, and you alone, will choose which gate you will enter.

There will be many people that 'loved' the Sermon on the Mount, in Hell.

Nothing else will be acceptable before God than the Righteousness of Christ, not your own!

May God Bless your walk!

Christinewjc said...

Hi Stacy,

Thanks for your words of encouragement. This is such a difficult subject to discuss with those who disagree. Sometimes I wonder "why me, Lord?" Why am I even involved with this topic??

Each time I want it to be "my last post on this subject," it keeps coming back around again!

I'll be checking out your website too!

In Christ,
Christine

Christinewjc said...

ebsfwan said, "...This tells me that marriage is devalued already."

"Gay" marriage would just add to the devaluation. And that is exactly what many, if not most,gay activists (please note I'm not saying all gay people!!) desire to do through changing the thousands of years old definition that marriage is between one man and one woman.

Stephen said...

Personally, I think the term "gay marriage" is the wrong one to use.

What we (non-activist) gays really want and need is just legal recognition.

Normally, this is called a "common law marriage", a "de-facto relationship" or a "civil union". These legalities do not cheapen the sanctity of marriage as a sacred covenant blessed by the church.

We don't want to force the Church to do anything through law changes. We want law changes simply for the purpose of changing the law. We don't want to control your thoughts or actions, we just want legal recognition.


Mark: I don't know why you have this animosity towards me, we don't even know each other.

I have suffered, oh yes, I have suffered. But God gave me the verse that ended my suffering: "would the thing that is formed ask He who formed it 'why have you made me thus'". God had his reasons, I only have a vague glimpse into those reasons at this time.

Stephen said...

Oh, and Christine. I'd like to thank you for being as understanding as you have been.

I know it's hard for you to listen to someone who you believe is trampling over everything Christ stands for.

I feel I should say that because I know you don't say what you say out of anger but out of love. It's very hard for me to see that love from where I sit, but I know it's there.. somewhere. :)

Mark said...

Mark: I don't know why you have this animosity towards me, we don't even know each other.

What 'animosity'? did you read May God Bless your walk! or just my comment in general? actually never mind.

Stephen said...

Sorry, Mark, it must be your avatar, for some reason, I imagine you as being rabid ;)

Thank you for the encouragement.

As I said, it's hard to see the love when you feel like you're being attacked :)

much love

Stephen

Christinewjc said...

Stephen,

Take a look at some commentary on that Bible verse:

III. SHALL THE THING THAT IS FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, "WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THUS?"

A. Here we see the figure of the potter and the clay. This is the third time in the Bible that this analogy is used to demonstrate the sovereignity of God over His creation.

1. Isaiah said in 45:9, Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?

2. Jeremiah was instructed to go down to the potters house to learn a lesson, and Jeremiah said,

JER 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

JER 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

JER 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

JER 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

There are thousands of ex-gays who have allowed God to work on them as JER 18:4 states: And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

Here are just a few of their redeeming stories of deliverance from the bondage of same-sex attraction.

BTW, Stephen...would you agree that every single born-again Christian (including me!!!) had to go through that marring process in order to give up their rebellion towards God, repent, and be made again another vessel through the power of Jesus Christ?

Each of our reconciliation moments may be different, but we all must recognize our inability to save ourselves and go through that door of confession and repentance through the cross of Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of all our sins.

Only then, can God's grace and mercy be placed upon our souls where once we were enemies of God.

Dearest Stephen! I'm not claiming that you are "trampling over everything Christ stands for." In the short time that I have known you (here and at that previous forum) I have noticed that you have shared some marvelous information about our Lord Jesus!

It's just this one thing that seems to be a stumbling block for you. I do not claim to say that it is the type of stumbling block that is easy to get over. It takes but a moment to be saved and a lifetime of sanctification follows.

I do not want to be another stumbling block in your walk. But the Lord led you to this blog for a reason!

What Mark shared was truly awesome. Please try to see the love being shared here is not just a cause to win an argument! We want the Lord Jesus Christ's truth to win out in all of our encounters with people!

It may take years, Stephen, but I pray that God will lead you to go over, around, or to push that stumbling block out of your way...

Love in Christ,
Christine

Stephen said...

*grins*

I believe God led me here to foster better dialog between you and those people you so actively rally against.

I believe God calls me (among other things) to be a witness to His will in this.

That said, I should not be so arrogant to presume that what I believe is necessarily the truth! We're all at risk of being deceived.

As you said, we die daily and we are all a continual "work in progress". I don't pretend to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I certainly have my moments of temptation and weakness.

I am sorry I let my anger at what I felt was a personal attack mar our discussion.

Lewis said...

Whoops

Oh, and why you should care about stem cell research and stop bitching about cells that arn't a person.
http://editrx.livejournal.com/152015.html

Or would you rather have these people die faster so they can go before god to be judged?

Stephen said...

Lewis, that wasn't very polite. I know you're angry but that's really no excuse.

For those of you who are following avidly (Stacy, I guess this includes you), Christine and I were discussing whether or not women's liberation and equality for homosexuals were linked.

I claimed that because Christine interprets Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 as not being binding on her at this time, I can do sinilar things for Paul's words that refer (vaguely) to homosexual acts.

Christine linked me to this article to prove her point.

If you read the article, you will see that the author of that book (Grudem) clearly states that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is binding on women today (and they should thus remain silent in church). He also links the liberation of women to pushes for equality for homosexuals.

Christine, I am shocked at the amount of cognitive dissonance that you are able to entertain. This man is claiming you have no right to speak in Church, yet you would use his words to argue against me? It doesn't make sense.

From the article:
"Again and again, Grudem allows the advocates of egalitarianism to reveal their own efforts to get around the clear teachings of Scripture on the different roles assigned to men and women. Gordon Fee, for example, argues that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 are "certainly not binding for Christians" because these verses, he argues, were not actually written by Paul, but were additions of a later scribe. As Grudem demonstrates, not one single ancient manuscript has ever omitted these verses."

What does he mean? He means Gordon Fee is wrong and that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is binding on you today.

It makes me angry that he would write such a thing, and I am embarrassed as a Christian that he would write such a thing, but there it is. How do you refute him, Christine?

Christinewjc said...

Lewis,

I plan to do a post later today about the evangelical pastor who allegedly sought sex with a gay male who was a prostitute (Note to friend Stephen - I have labeled the gay man a prostitute because he allegedly was paid money for his "services" and even admits this in some of the articles I have read this morning.)

Stephen,

I planned to do a detailed post about the seemed inconsistences between my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and the article at Al Mohler's blog.

I have a LOT of errands to do today so it would be several hours before I could reply in detail. However, I will state a few points now and then you can decide if I am still being inconsistant in my personal beliefs and interpretation of the Bible.

1. I believe that the Christian husband should be head of the household in marriage. Any women's libbers who happen to read this blog probably will burst a blood vessel on that! But notice I said Christian man.

This is one practical reason why Christian women probably should not knowingly marry non-believers. It causes much strife in such households (I have seen this countless times in relationships of people around me!) and as the Bible tells us, "we should not be unequally yoked with non-believers."

However, my husband, children and I actually lived these verses:

1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

If you read my testimony, Stephen, you would notice this to be true about my marriage.

Some of my Christian female friends who divorced their husbands due to infidelity (Scripturally allowed) lived these verses:

1Cr 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.

1Cr 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save [thy] husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save [thy] wife?



2. I could go into great detail about the woman being submissive to the man, but suffice it to say that this doesn't mean that she is to be trampled upon by him. The Bible is clear about this and there are many verses that I can share. Here are a few:

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.

[Good point from the Stedman commentary: " The Christian woman fulfills her ministry to her Lord in being subject to her husband, and all this is involved in this problem of headship which the apostle defines as equality, cooperation, and yet, submission."]


If you read the entire Ephesians chapter 5, you will see that the first thing mentioned about submission is that the entire congregation should be submitting themselves to each other in the fear (reverence) of God.

That tells me that God and His Living Word, Jesus Christ, as well as His written Word, the Bible, should trump any man-made ideas or extrapolation from Scripture (which we are warned would happen in the book of Jude the closer we get to the end times). Therefore, traditional understanding of Scripture is vital to our Christian faith.

Ah! I said I'd make this short and I'm not doing that! Sorry...

2. I do not believe that women are meant to be pastors of the church. As I had stated previously (when discussing the Corinthians passage where the unlearned women were to be silent), I also believe that women can teach the Word of God because many learned women (of the Scriptures, that is) in Paul's day did just that.

There are many reasons why I (personally) believe that women should not be pastors, but the Scriptural reasons are mentioned in the Mohler article.

I see this belief (women shouldn't be pastors) as different from the misunderstood view that women "should not teach" AT the church AT ALL.

I have to run out now, but I did find one commentary that may help explain my position further.

Ray Stedman commentary

P.S. Lewis,
There is a section within the Stedman commentary that could be applied (not exactly, of course) when considering the huge amount of damage that, if this pastor is found guilty of the drug and sex allegations, then such a scandel causes immense harm to his individual church as well as the Christian church in general (all believers) everywhere.

I have copied and posted it for your reading convenience:

Here is another similarity to the church today. It is almost frightening to see how certain leaders of the church are now openly advocating sexual immoralities, and certain of the pastors and leaders of youth groups in the church are openly encouraging young people to sleep together, and to live together. Now, at the time this letter was written, the atmosphere was such that sexual immorality was widely accepted within the city as the normal way of life. Within the church, however, it is absolutely set aside as being totally incongruous with the Christian profession, because it was a violation of the humanity of the individuals involved. The love of God burned in zealous judgment against this because it was destroying and would destroy those involved in it. That is why the apostle speaks in such scathing words concerning this matter. Chapters five and six both deal with this matter of immorality, and the apostle points out that the defense of the Christian must not be derived from any moral standards outside himself---it is not "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" that keeps young people or older people free from sexual problems and pressures, but rather it is the recognition that their bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit. The Son of God himself dwells in us, and we are never out of his presence. Everywhere we go, he goes with us, and is in us, and in that sense, everything we are doing is done in the presence of the Son of God himself. That is what keeps the young person free from the pressures that come.

Lastly, the saving grace through it all is that confession and repentance brings forth God's mercy and grace towards any sinner who is willing to come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness, salvation and continued sanctification.

Stephen said...

Christine, you don’t have to convince me that women should be allowed to speak in church, or that women should be allowed to be ordained. I am thoroughly convinced of these things on my own, having also gone through exact the same reasoning as you. Paul was talking of ignorant people saying things without thought in the early church, this was damaging to the young church. He never meant it to be a commandment for how we should treat women for all time.

What I would really like you do to though, is to acknowledge to me that you strongly disagree with this man’s assertions (the ones in the article about women). That (as far as you are concerned) this man who writes that women should remain silent is deceived. He is deceived by his own fear and prejudice. Sure, you agree with him in other things.

What I am trying to point out here is that he would view your women’s apologetics essay in much the same light as you would view my gay apologetics essay. He sees you on the beginning of a slippery slope into the moral decay of “Biblical liberalism”. You and I disagree with him there, and we disagree with each other elsewhere.

Now, having realized that Christians, who read the same Book, come to different conclusions about these things, can you really maintain your false arrogance to presume that your interpretation is the only true and perfect one? My understanding is imperfect, I acknowledge that. I wish you would not be so blindly dogmatic in your views, that is all.

To doubt yourself is not to doubt God, for who truly knows the mind of God?

Secret Rapture said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Christinewjc said...

About that deleted comment.
Every so often, I get a lunatic posting at my blog. It's been a while, so I guess I was due for another one to happen along.

Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often so I haven't seen the need (yet!)to monitor comments.

Anyway, I usually go to the links and check out what that person has stated. The post I just deleted was totally unacceptable for several reasons. It was a mockery against God and His Word. It contained sexually explicit language that was, IMO, entirely unnecessary. Therefore, into the trash can it went!

Saltnlight said...

Anyone who will:
Isn't it funny how that just because it is in the bible, to some, that means God approves of it. Say for example, all the wives and concubines some of God's chosen had.

Slavery in those days was not as slavery was in early America.

Sin is still sin. And we are all sinners. Even those of us who are saved.

I refuse to get into arguments about certain sin and I like some others will not read books written by men who are attempting to make God's Word of no value with lies.

Some of us are intent on believing anything that will sugar coiat the truth and allow us to keep on sinning. There is nothing anyone can do for that. It is a choice that is made and nothing else.

I am not here to judge anyone or condemn anyone all of us can do very well at that for ourselves. I come here for one purpose and that is to give the truth of Christ to all who want Him and pray that some of you will hear. Eternity is forever.

I can tell you this: I was lesbian for well over twenty five years and Christ came into my life and changed me. I know the truth and I am free. There is now no condemnation for me because of what Christ has done. If you are interested in how He did this please write me at; bereanbaglady@hotmail.com

Saltnlight said...

"Being gay is part of the human condition."
My friend, Sin is the human condition.

"Slavery is considered normal in the Bible - immoral now."
Slavery was different then and just because God permitted it does not mean He relished it. This was a way for people to pay back for damages etc.

"We cannot and do not apply the moral code of the early Christians to our lives today. Are we (as a society) more moral than our founding Christian fathers? I would argue yes."
Because we have softened in our dealing with immorallity and crime we have waxed worse and worse. We are far less moral than ever in our history.

"I've never really understood why Christians (and I'm one) in particular are so against gay marriage."
Simple answer for this one. Because it is brazenly perverting the holy ordination of God. To bring one man and one woman together as one. This can never be true of the lesbian or homosexual.
God ordained it for the first two created and this was to be the way. Had God wanted two men or two women together He would have created such, He did not. Another thing, I do not care what you think of the relationship between David and Jonathan, Though it was a very deep friendship and not ssa. If it had been, it sstill would not have been covered by God or else God is a liar. God is true and every man a liar.

Same Sex marriages are totally unnatural and ungodly. The agenda is to destroy families and the lives of children. That is what will happen if this is permitted.

You asked for it and there it is, the truth take it or leave it. By their fruits you will know them. Going to church and saying a few prayers and singing some songs does not make one a Christian. Jesus did as the Father did not as man. Reading some book by a man will not disprove what God has said.

Why would God give us His first lesson on marriage as He did and not include homosexual relationships in that portion of the bible?? Because God is holy and cannot look upon sin let alone create it.

Saltnlight said...

I agree with the letter here that clarifies the difference between "activists" and other homosexual people. I too say that.

Another thing, I do not hate anyone and certainly not the homosexual or lesbian. I love you and want only to tell the truth and bring you to Christ. If you Accept Christ it is between you and He whether or not you truly believe. If you heart is tender, He will do the work necessary to change you.

God has given all who love Him the obligation to tell others of Jesus and how He paid for our debt. An offer or invitation is then either accepted or rejected by you. Please hear what I say, there is only this lifetime to make that decision, after death it is too late.

Patrick said...

HOLY SPIRIT
About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff were very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th Sep 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].
Peace Be With You
Patrick