Saturday, October 01, 2005

A Dilemma at the Checkout Stand

While running errands yesterday, I walked into a local grocery store to purchase a few items. While the employee at the checkout stand was ringing up my 4 items, she asked me if I would like to donate a dollar to a breast cancer research group. Now normally, I wouldn't even hesitate. But this time I did. I stood there, probably exhibiting an 'I don't want to donate' look on my face. The checkstand girl impatiently said, "You don't have to if you don't want to." I then asked her whether or not it was for the Susan G. Komen fund. She looked at the back of the card to see which center was sponsoring the donation drive. Meanwhile I observed the front of the card which had the usual pink ribbon which represents "support" for most breast cancer charities. She said that it was another fund, not the Susan G. Komen organization. I then told her that I would like to donate.

Now here's the dilemma. Do I tell her why I asked which fund the money was going to or do I just keep my ideology and comments to myself? After all, we are in a public checkout stand at the grocery store and getting into a political debate on sensitive issues may not be the wisest thing to do. People often get very volatile when they disagree with your beliefs and views, particularly on this issue. I decided to take the chance and told her.

I said, "The reason I asked whether or not it was the Komen fund is because I found out that their organization also supports abortion and part of the money collected goes to a cause that I oppose. I am pro-life and I cannot knowingly support any organization that funds abortion."

She seemed genuinely surprised that these two were linked and said, "They do? My mom and I are against abortion too."

With a sigh of relief, I said, "I just wanted you to know why I hesitated when you asked me to donate. Two years ago I participated in a walk for the Komen foundation in Washington D.C., but later I found out the truth about their abortion connection and I was devastated. It really hurt to find that out about them."

The girl replied, "I need to let my mom know about that."

I said, "Another reason I had hesitated to discuss this is because people on the other side of the issue often become vicious and violently angry towards anyone who states that they are pro-life. They think that 'choice' means the right of a woman to do what she wants 'with her own body' which then trumps the right to life of the unborn child within her."

My belief is, "choose life, your mother did."

As I walked out of the store I began thinking about how many other causes and charities are like that? How many of them secretly support another cause that some people may find objectionable? This taught me a great lesson. My husband and I are now very cautious about where our donations funds go.

About four years ago, I stopped donating to the March of Dimes, too. I found out that they support and fund abortion providers. This truly sickened me. My neighbor was the one who included me in a donation mailing and I had been a faithful donor for two years. When I found out the truth regarding where the money was going, I just could not bring myself to support their organization any longer.

A few years ago, we had some protesters outside our church. I think they were from "Operation Rescue". They had huge billboard sized signs with images of aborted babies. This was ugly beyond words! I'm sure that they got all kinds of reactions from the people pulling into the parking lot for church. I had a question so my family went into the church ahead of me and I stopped to talk with one of the protesters. I asked him, "aren't you actually 'preaching to the choir' by protesting here at a Christian fellowship?"

He said, "No. Many of the abortions performed on a daily basis are done to women professing to be Christians!"

As I stood there, I saw the gamut of reactions from the people pulling into the lot. There were angry people who shouted at them to leave. Some livid fathers went by cursing up a storm because their children had to see that. There were people quietly giving the "thumbs up" and saying "we will pray for you" and "God bless you for standing up for what is right."

No doubt. The pictures on those billboards were horrendous! NO ONE would EVER want to look at them! That's the point, folks. Seeing how ugly and awful this holocaust of abortion really is sends a wake-up call to us. I truly pray that Roe vs. Wade gets overturned as a result of the new Supreme Court justices coming to the bench. Let the individual states decide whether or not they want to be an abortion providing state. I can already predict which states will keep abortion legal. California, New York, Massachusetts, Florida; just to name a few.

My own personal beliefs are that abortion should only be done if the life of the mother is at stake (e.g. an ectopic pregnancy) or in the case of rape or incest. But the truth is that the majority of abortions are done for convenience or, used as a 'too late' birth control option.

Another blog post that I recently read shares many additional important points:

"The harm performed on a preborn child by an abortionist is, of course, lethal. But the harm doesn't stop there. The violent, remarkably unnatural act of abortion also results in terrible risks to the woman's health. In both the long and short term, a woman putting her pregnant body in the hands of an abortion profiteer faces a whole host of dangers -- not to mention the grave spiritual consequences of such an act. The dangers posed by abortion to mothers should never be a mere "side issue" for sidewalk counselors, CPC workers and other pro-life advocates who hold high the banner for the sanctity of life. This is both because we require her change of mind to save her baby's life but also because our concern for her must be authentic and passionate.

Abortion hurts...even the survivor. And that is one of our most important messages. For a review of just how abortion hurts women, check out these lists from the Elliot Institute which present both the
physical effects and the
psychological effects.

There's more at the fine web site of the Elliot Institute so why not stop by and do a little homework there. It will better equip you to speak truths of life to those who desperately need to know."

If you visit the "physical effects" website of the Elliot Institute, you will see the following:

"BREAST CANCER: The risk of breast cancer almost doubles after one abortion, and rises even further with two or more abortions.(3) "

3. H.L. Howe, et al., "Early Abortion and Breast Cancer Risk Among Women Under Age 40," International Journal of Epidemiology 18(2):300-304 (1989); L.I. Remennick, "Induced Abortion as A Cancer Risk Factor: A Review of Epidemiological Evidence," Journal of Epidemiological Community Health, (1990); M.C. Pike, "Oral Contraceptive Use and Early Abortion as Risk Factors for Breast Cancer in Young Women," British Journal of Cancer 43:72 (1981).

There are more scientific studies being done that link breast cancer risk with abortion. It is truly amazing to me that a breast cancer fund like the Komen foundation would quietly, and obviously secretly, support and divert funds to any abortion provider organizations knowing that there is increasing evidence of a link between abortion and breast cancer! Just goes to show that what you don't know CAN hurt you; physically, emotionally and spiritually!

Back to that Sunday visit with the pro-life protesters. I entered the church and sat down. My pastor was telling us that he wasn't happy that the protesters where out there and he was sorry for all the hurt that their presence may have caused. He did state that abortion is wrong and a sin, but it can be repented of and those who had abortions can be forgiven and healed from the trauma of it all. We then bowed in prayer and throughout the prayer time, I could hear the sobbing and weeping of dozens of women who were probably STILL suffering emotionally over their bad decisions to have abortions in the past. Our pastor handled it masterfully, in a way I could imagine that Jesus would have comforted someone in his presence.

But I'm sure that even the women who are born-again in Christ and KNOW that they are forgiven for that particular sin, as well as all others in their lives, STILL have that emotional pain that may never go away. I have heard of some who actually keep track of when their child would have been born, what age he/she would be in any given year, and I'm sure it hurts...severely. But knowing that the blood of Jesus Christ covers all sin and iniquity, even when we make horrendous choices such as abortion, gives us the hope for the future that one who has done this has already been healed spiritually, and can be healed emotionally.

For help, I suggest you look into Extraordinary Women, Women at the Well: Finding Life, Love, and Relationships

One of the guest speakers is former actress Jennifer O'Neill. She has a great message of hope to share called, "Unconditional Forgiveness." Perhaps her message is available on CD.

Jennifer has also written a book entitled, "You're Not Alone". It is a biblically-based invitation to all that have been affected by abortion and yearn to move from regret to healing. Thank you, Jennifer, for this timely book about a tough subject. It is an honest and compassionate look at the devastation abortion leaves in its wake and God's grace and power to forgive and heal the broken-hearted." You can read a review about the book at:

Jennifer O’Neill – “Unconditional Forgiveness”
Internationally acclaimed actress, film star, and author, Jennifer O’Neill became a household name as the spokesperson for ‘Cover Girl’ cosmetics. Re-born in Christ, her message is one of unconditional forgiveness. No matter what you’ve done or where you’ve been, it’s never too late for God’s unconditional love. Forgiveness, healing and victory are yours for the asking! You are never alone!


Anna said...

Christine -

Thank you for this powerful message. I had no idea the Komen foundation supported abortion. I will pass this info along.

As a general rule, I don't support secular charities. I had heard about March of Dimes a long time ago. I support those charities, which reflect my beliefs - usually through church/Christian organizations. I wonder how many other "charities" out there are quietly supporting abortion and other causes besides their primary focus.

Thanks for a very thorough handling of this subject.


Christinewjc said...

Hi Anna,

I do not think that the Komen foundation support of abortion organizations is well known. Many times these organizations hide these facts from the general public.

When did you find out about the March of Dimes support for abortion? That was unbelievable to me. How can an organization that asks for donations to save the lives of babies and children support an organization that kills them in the womb? It's just appalling!

You are very wise to donate through your church and only to KNOWN, well-documented born-again evangelical Christian organizations.

Unfortunately, even those organizations with the term "Christian" in the title are often found to be far removed from the true, biblical, Christian morals, values, ethics, and worldview for which we stand. Your comment about knowing whether or not a certain charity 'reflects your beliefs' is essential in this decision making process and I thank you for sharing that very important point.

Enjoy your weekend!

Love in Christ,

Anna said...

Hi Christine -

I don't remember where I heard about the March of Dimes, but it was years ago while I lived in another state. It might have been through Focus.

Have a great weekend.


Jojo said...

Hi Christine,

I found your post most interesting today. I learned some things I did not know. Although I've never heard of the Komen foundation - I am so glad you knew enough to ask, before donating. And I am also glad you decided to explain your situation to the young girl. I wonder how many times I have given to the wrong thing. Seems someone calls wanting money most days, for something. I have decided against giving over the phone - because unfortunately, we just can't know who is trustworthy and who is not. How did you find out about the Koman foundation and the March of Dimes giving to abortion?

I have to admit that I was surprised by your beliefs on abortion. The part that surprised me was that you think there are occasions that are acceptable for it. You see, I had an abortion when I was 18 years old. To say, I wish I had not, would be an understatment. I was not raped or abused. And my life was not at risk. I was simply selfish. I was an unmarried teenager who did not want to be inconvenienced. I didn't want the embarassment of being an unmarried pregnant teenager. The other thing that makes this even worse is the fact that I'm adopted. In the 60's if you got pregnant outside of marriage, you put your baby up for adoption. In the 80's, I chose abortion. I have to live with that the rest of my life.

But now, 18 years later, and living with Christ as my Lord and Savior, I must admit that I don't believe there is ever a time that it's ok to have an abortion. Not if the mother's life will end with the pregnancy; not if the baby was conceived out of rape or incest and not if the baby has some deformation/disease. I think only God should decide when life begins and ends. I think it takes great faith to trust HIm, but I believe that is what we are called to do.

I am so thankful that my ugly, selfish act of murder has been paid for and forgiven thru my Lord, Jesus Christ. I am thankful also that my baby is safe in heaven with Jesus and someday I will know if I had a boy or a girl living inside of me. He or she would be 20 years old today. Oh how many times I have thought, "If only I had chosen to do what was right, how different my life would be." But God uses all things for good, when we believe.

Anna said...

Hi Christine & JoJo -

Yeah - I'm still here. Waiting for my husband to get home from work. He just left the job.

We get a lot of calls for donations over the phone. Most of those calls are done by outside organizations, not the charity. The charity ends up getting almost nothing. A former boss had a practice of refusing to make any donations over the phone. He would then contact the charity and make a donation directly if he was so inclined. This way they received the full amount.


Dwayna Litz said...

Hi Christine!
I love your blog!!!

Christinewjc said...

Hi Jojo,

It's good to see you posting here again! I have missed you! I trust that your daughter is doing well?

About the post. One of my sincere concerns when posting on this sensitive subject is the worry that my opposition to abortion will hurt someone who had gone through one. I have talked with so many different women who have come from different situations and confessed to having one or more abortions. Some understand my position on this subject better than others.

Please know that I didn't mean to open up any old wounds for you, or anyone else who may read this blog.

I tried to make the post balanced in its message so that no one would come away from what they read feeling worse about their past bad choices that they had made in their lives.

I used to think that abortion was not permissible no matter what. As a Christian I admit that it is not permissible for me, no matter what. However, other women's stories have tempered my view for them. Does that make sense?

A friend who confessed to having had 3 abortions before she became a Christian floored me, but I tried not to show it. She is strong in her faith in Christ now, has repented and knows she is forgiven. She is married and has two children and considers that such a blessing in her life. Studies have shown that the more abortions one has, the greater chance that a woman may become sterile and not be able to conceive.

Another friend had experienced an ectopic pregnancy. This is where the zygote attaches to the wall of the fallopian tube instead of the proper place of the uterus. If it isn't aborted, both mother and fetus would die.

I once heard a testimony from a woman who spoke at our church. She had been raped, but decided to keep the baby anyway. Her story was so heart wrenching!! She could have opted to abort because, as some women claim, the child would be a reminder of the rape. But she decided to keep and raise the baby. Her son is such a blessing in her life. For someone else, maybe they couldn't have handled it.

Another case involved a former neighbor of mine. I saw her in her eighth month while she was pregnant with twins. The next time I saw her, she wasn't pregnant and she didn't have any babies at home. Apparently, there were defects of some sort found and she decided to have an abortion. I assume that it must have been a partial birth abortion because it was so late into the pregnancy. It is one of the most horrendous types of abortion procedures. Another possibility was that she had the saline induced abortion where a woman delivers a dead baby.

We weren't that close in our friendship so I didn't feel comfortable asking many questions. One reason why I think she had a partial birth abortion is because during one of my emails letters asking people to write to their Senator and Congressman in support of the vote to ban PBA, she wrote back and said that she would never limit a woman's right to choose. Even THAT horrendous procedure was not considered 'worthy of banning' by her. Of course I totally disagree with that.

I know what I would have done (or, more accurately, would likely NOT have done)in each of these cases, but I realize that each of these women must have been in terribly difficult situations in order to make decisions for abortion.

I don't know if my rambling here explains my position very well. But I truly can understand your being surprised about the three exceptions that I included within my belief on abortion.

The sad truth is, 98% of the abortions done are NOT for the exceptions I had listed! Therefore, most abortions are for convenience and used as a 'to late' birth control method.

I do not recall exactly how I found out about the Komen foundation's support for abortion providers. I think it must have been at a bible study where the subject came up and a woman who is a nurse shared the information.

As Anna alluded to in her post, many times these secular organizations are linked with others that have to do with a multitude of women's issues. In the secular world and mindset, providing abortions is considered 'compassionate' and a 'good' thing for women and people who are 'anti-abortion' are considered intolerant, uncompassionate and even evil!!

Woe to them who call good evil, and evil good!!

Now we know another reason why Jesus said that He is not of this world! But praise His Holy Name, He has overcome the world! That is our lasting hope and salvation! Thank God for repentance, forgiveness, mercy, grace and love!

Your friend in Christ,

Jojo said...

Hi Christine,

Thanks for your response. Please don't apologize for talking about a sensitive subject. I am not at all offended, I simply felt the need to share. It is one of those things I feel I must talk about so others will think and rethink. I could not possibly judge someone for their choice. I understand being in that position and know we make choices based on our own knowledge and beliefs. I just wanted to share how a decision can turn to regret and guilt and follow us the rest of our lives. God can take away the guilt, but that doesn't mean I don't regret my choice everytime I think about it. It is like you said, I often think and figure how old my child is now and wonder what life should have been like with this child in my life. But as I said earlier, I know someday we will be together again and I will be able to tell him or her how sorry I am and how much I love him/her. I have my son who is the full brother to that child and he has no idea what I did. Those secrets also bring pain. If I can prevent one person from going thru all the trauma that goes with abortion, then sharing my story, as embarrassing as it is, is worth it.

God bless you Christine, and know I have no hard feelings discussing a delicate topic. I consider you a wonderful sister in Christ.

I put an update about Kristin on my blog.

Susan Smith said...

Hi everyone:

I read these posts before church this morning and decided to wait until after worship to contribute so I would not be rushed for words.

What a blessing your blog is Christine to open topics that some believe should not be discussed. I appreciate your humility in telling about your walk for the Komen foundation in Washington D.C. and then learning the truth. Like Jojo, I have never heard of this foundation.

Jojo, God bless you for sharing your testimony. I know God uses you to minister to hurting people.

I had a child out of wedlock while I was living with a lesbian lover. (As you know since you have heard my testimony) My mother urged me to fly to NY and get an abortion (abortion was not legal at that time in my home state of Florida)and my lesbian lover wanted me to keep the child. (She had been married, had cancer and could not have children.) If abortion had been legal in the State of Florida at that time, then I would most likely have had an abortion, only God knows.

I am thankful today that I did not; however, there is still a loss when one commits sexual immorality and gives a child up for adoption. I am sure my loss does not equate or come close to the emotional hurt women feel after an abortion. But there always remains the question: How could any woman give up a child? I believe I made the right choice considering the circumstances. I admire your transparency, Jojo. Transparency is so valuable in the kingdom of God.

It is a joy to know God forgives ALL our iniquities and heals ALL our diseases (see PSM 103:3) I am glad Kristin is doing "ok" now.(ss)

Jojo said...

Hi Susan,

Thank you for the encouragment. Since I am adopted, I have a special place in my heart for mothers who give their babies up. I don't think it awful, but so selfless. To know that the baby would be better off in a home with two parents who want a child and are prepared for one is a wonderful gift to both the baby and the couple. I think it is selfish when one has an abortion, as I did, or keeps a child they can not provide for. I can't remember if you have gone on to be reunited with your child or not.

We can learn so much from one another. :)

Christinewjc said...

To all my sisters in Christ,

I appreciate all of you so very much. You just have no idea how much each of you have touched my soul.

Dwayna, I love your blog too! So glad you came over here for a visit!

Anna, I always appreciate your input so much! Your heart for the Lord and all of us 'girlfriends' in Christ is truly such a blessing to me!

Jojo, I agree with what Susan said about your willingness to be so open and honest about past hurts and decisions. We just have no idea how many people visit this blog just to read and how many may pass on your heartfelt posts that may result in a decision against choosing abortion.

Susan, sharing your honest feelings about the child you lovingly gave up for adoption just shows such strength in the Lord Jesus! Even before you really 'knew' Him, He knew and loved you, and He carried you through to this day.

And how Jojo has blessed us all with her post about being adopted and what a loving thing it was in her life.

The love being poured out by all of you here just makes me well up in I go again!

But they are tears of love and joy experienced through knowing Christ our Savior and sharing that life together; even as we share those painful times in our lives.

OK...time to run and get a tissue!

Clandestine said...

It's amazing to me that you are so quick to point out anything you view as extremist if it opposes your views, but you won't acknowledge that 'your side' may use the same tactics you accuse others of using. Those pictures of bloody, chopped up, clearly 'to term' babies are ridiculous and offensive for so many reasons.

I was at a rally once with people with those signs (I was on the 'other side of the street' literally and figuratively), and a friend of mine asked them what the pictures were. They lied, of course, and said they were what happens in an abortion. Then, she asked what made them look like that. The man with the sign said "the saline they use in the abortion." She said, "Saline?" He said,"yes." She said, "like what I use on my contacts?!" He didn't acknowledge that he was clearly wrong, but said, "you've been misinformed."

Whatever you believe, you should recognize that it's not all true.

You attack Deepak Chopra for his beliefs because they are different from yours, but freak out if anyone does the same to you. Do you honestly believe that your beliefs seem "logical" to everyone?!

When I go to the grocery store these days, I am faced with someone collecting signatures outside of the door to take away my civil rights. Do you have any idea how that feels?? Do you think that makes me want to join those people at church?! No. It has the exact opposite effect.

I wish you'd think about how you make other people feel. I wish you and people who believe like you do would take some time to think about how your beliefs affect others.

I don't stand in front of your grocery store and tell your children that you are an evil person and that your family doesn't deserve the same rights as mine, simply because we don't believe in the same way. I don't know why you think it's okay for you to do that.

Christinewjc said...


The following link will provide some additional information regarding what it means for a baby to go through a "saline" abortion. It isn't the same substance as contact lense solution. In fact, it is so caustic that it is compared to the effect of napalm on innocent war victims.

The page includes an article that I had written about saline abortion survivor, Gianna Jessen. Her survival was considered miraculous after what she went through in the womb.

Scroll down to read about the "salt poisoning" method of abortion and click on the picture links to see the truth about what happens in this type of abortion. The fact is, this type of abortion is often done late in the pregnancy. It is considered a late-term abortion procedure like partial birth abortion.

Let me ask you this question. If there is such a thing as absolute truth, where would you be more likely to find it?

Deepak Chopra was involved in a debate with a Christian apologist. It was shown that Chopra's beliefs were not logically consistent. That is not a personal attack, it is an extremely important observation that will help people determine what is truth and what isn't.

I know that not everyone believes as I do or ever will believe the same way I do. But I have a right to defend my faith just like you have the right to oppose it.

Which rights are you claiming have been taken away? If you are referring to gay rights then I think you should take a closer look at all the gains made in that area.

As far as the right to use the term 'marriage' to describe a gay union, why does that word have to be re-defined because less than 2% of the population say so?

Haven't gay couples had their rights to live together as they so choose for thousands of years?

Why the need to re-define marriage?

Why now?

Why wasn't this fought for over the last 2,000 or so years of history?

Could it have something to do with how marriage has always been defined?

Other relationships have always been given a different name. Polygamy, for example. Why not come up with your own term?

Oh, that's right you DO have another's called civil unions. Why is that not sufficient? What is additionally at work here?

Never mind. Don't even bother answering the questions. I have heard it all before anyway. I have found that getting into a political discussion like this is oftentimes fruitless.

But I will say this. In Massachusetts, a rogue judge made the decision to allow 'gay' marriage, NOT the vote of the people. The way that our democratic republic is supposed to work is by MAJORITY VOTE NOT JUDICIAL FIAT.

And, why was this done?

Primarily because the gay activists knew that they would lose if it was presented to the people for a vote. So, what brought about the re-definition of marriage in MA? Judicial activism. That's anarchy. When the will of the people is trumped by the power of the few, we have anarchy. And, Massachusetts parents are suffering because of this terrible decision. Parents' rights to choose to opt their young children out of the forced teaching of homosexuality in the public school classroom has led to the arrest and jailing of a parent who peacably went to the school administration to request his son be opted out when this objectional material is being presented. They said NO and called to police to have him arrested for being on the school premises! This, after he was invited to a conference with the principal and others to discuss this disagreement. Sounds like something that Saddam Hussein would have done in the former Iraq. Disagree with us, you are arrested and jailed.

What is happening in this case is that a man's religious beliefs and the way that he wants his son raised in his household are being trumped by gay rights activists and their secular humanistic beliefs being forced down the throats of young children (as young as 6 yrs. old!!) to the direct objection of the parent(s). This is a bad, bad thing.

I will do my best to speak out about this awful injustice inflicted upon this Christian man and use it to warn others about the true agenda being pushed by gay activists.

How do I know to what ends these activists will take their agenda?

Here's the goals stated in a gay publication:

The militant homosexual agenda is one of the sledgehammers used in America's cutural demolition. This agenda is not just about equal rights - it is revolutionary in its scope and aims to recreate society in its own image. In her book, "The Hidden Homosexual Agenda," Beverly LaHaye wrote, "The homosexual ideology implies the intent to rearrange our perceptions, lifestyles, and legal system. In the strict sense of the term, this change is revolutionary. It requires, if it is to be effectively implemented, the careful and gradual application and transfer of power. The homosexual movement is thus not primarily a philanthropic or educational enterprise, but a hard-nosed political movement bent on changing our society." Nowhere is this truth more shockingly portrayed than in this essay on the homosexual agenda, written by "gay revolutionary" Mark Swift and printed in the Feb. 15, '87 issue of Gay Community News. These excerpts are reprinted from the Congressional Record: "We shall sodomize your sons....We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker your youth groups.... Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding.... They will come to crave and adore us. All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men. Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable.... We shall raise vast, private defeat you. The family unit...will be abolished. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory.... All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men. Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks." What does the future hold for the United States and the rest of the nations swept into the net of the global culture? We may find the answer to this question by sifting the ashes of Sodom and Gomorrah. Written 8/28/97

Now, contrast that with what the Christian man, David Parker most likely believes and wants taught to his son:

The idea that "Jesus never said anything against homosexuality" just shows the ignorance of people who don't know Christ and haven't read and studied the Bible. If they had, then they would realize how ridiculous that statement truly is.



Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. must be okay, right?

Talking points from Mission America

Consider these facts:

He also never said anything about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?

There are many teachings and deeds of Christ that are not included in the Gospel accounts, as John writes in John 21:25.

Christ did say that God created people “in the beginning” as male and female, and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman joined together as “one flesh.” (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9) Nothing is said about any other type of union.

When He discussed sexual morality, Christ had a very high standard, clearly affirming long-standing Jewish law. He told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more.” (John 8:11) He warned people not only that the act of adultery was wrong, but even adulterous thoughts. (Matthew 5:28) And he shamed the woman at the well (John 4:18) by pointing out to her that he knew she was living with a man who was not her husband.

Christ used the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God’s wrath ( Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11,Luke 10:12, and Luke 17:29). Throughout the Old Testament, prophets clearly described these cities as being notorious for the practice of homosexuality. (Genesis 18:20, Genesis 19:4-5, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekiel 16:46-59). Jesus certainly knew that this was how the comparison would be understood.

Christ was God incarnate (in the flesh) here on earth. He was the long-expected Messiah, which was revealed in Matthew 16:13- 20, Matthew 17:5-9, Mark 8:27-30, Luke 4:16-30, Luke 9: 18-21,John 4:25-26, John 8:57-59 and elsewhere. As one with God, He was present from the beginning (John 1: 1-13; Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 and elsewhere). So, Jesus was part of the Godhead as the laws were handed down through Moses to Israel and eventually to the whole world. This Old Testament law clearly prohibited homosexuality (Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:18 and elsewhere). The apostles understood this also, as shown by Paul’s writing in Romans 1:24-27, Peter’s in 2 Peter 2:4-22, and John’s in Revelation 22:15.
So--the apostles, who were taught by Christ, clearly understood that homosexuality was a sin as it has always been. When people say, “Jesus said nothing about homosexuality,” they reveal that they really haven’t understood Scripture, or Who Christ is. Maybe some of these points can help them toward a clearer understanding.


Post ID: 709 Posted by: pool6x, 2005-09-17 02:13:00

This was an excellent reply based upon the truth of the Bible. Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality...everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (part of the Godhead) is dittoing it.


Post ID: 716 Posted by: nitsuard, 2005-09-19 01:44:26

Excellent indeed! But I had a bad link to the original article and hope to read it b4 continuing my comments except to say that John 1 explains that Christ was GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible.


Quite a clash of worldviews...isn't it!!

I rest my case.

Clandestine said...

My whole point, which you clearly did not take, was not that I am right and you are wrong. My point was that you are a hypocrite. I was trying to be diplomatic. You clearly don't feel that is necessary.

You freak out and attribute the beliefs of your 'gay publication' to every gay person. You think that we are all evil, hate-filled people who think everyone should be gay. That is so not true. Frankly, it's ridiculous. But you attack and attack as if all of us are trying to take away your right to worship as you see fit. Do you understand that not all of us are doing that? Can you see that you are as extreme in your views as the people you complain about are in theirs? Do you truly believe that those pictures are legitimate?

My story about the rally was not to point out that the word 'saline' was incorrect, but that the man didn't know what he was talking about, and so instead of explaining his point, he just said, "you are misinformed" and dismissed us.

I don't understand why you don't understand that if you approach people in a caring, loving way, without trying to attack them or their beliefs, you'd be acting in a much more Christian way and you'd also have a better response. When people are attacked, they automatically put up defenses. They are unable to hear your point.

I just don't understand how you can claim to be Christian and Christ-like when you are the one who is spreading hate. It makes no sense to me at all.

You asked me not to answer, but I'm going to anyway. You said,"As far as the right to use the term 'marriage' to describe a gay union, why does that word have to be re-defined because less than 2% of the population say so?

Haven't gay couples had their rights to live together as they so choose for thousands of years?

Why the need to re-define marriage?"

I don't believe for a second that you don't understand the point. The point is that marriage is not a religous word anymore. Marriage is what makes one person able to visit their spouse in the hospital without having to fight. Marriage is what makes one person able to get health benefits for their spouse. Marriage is a civil institution.

Civil unions do not afford the same benefits as civil marriage. Furthermore, civil unions are not defined on the federal level. They mean nothing more than if two people promise to each other to love, honor and cherish. Which is all lovely, of course. But, if one person gets hurt or sick, the most important person in their life may not be able to see them. Their children are not protected.

I did not get to vote on whether or not you could marry the person you're married to. I just don't understand why you think you have the right to choose who I will marry.

The moral of the story is that you don't think that I deserve the same rights that you do. Because your religious beliefs conflict with mine. YOU are trying to infringe on MY life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. YOU are hurting ME. You live your life day after day without having to worry about convincing anyone that your rights should be the same as everyone else's.

The evil that is being done is done by you, Christine. I'm sorry that you won't ever believe me, but that is the truth. I do not judge you or your right to live life the way you feel you should. You do that to me.

FURTHERMORE, the MA Supreme Court ruled that the ban on same-sex marriage was unconstitutional. They didn't say it was good or bad. They just ruled the way they thought they should. We'll see if it goes to the ballot.

I hope it doesn't.

Because the rights of a minority should never be put to the vote of a majority.

You are a white, Christian woman. Imagine how you'd feel if suddenly there was a nationwide movement to take away your right to, say, vote. Just yours. Should everyone else be able to vote on that?

I know it's not the same thing to you because one is a rule of your God and one is a secular rule. But it's the same to me. I live in the United States, too. My government should not make laws the favor one religion or institutionalize one religion over another. That's in the CONSTITUTION! Why does that not matter to you????????

Christinewjc said...

If you will go back and re-read my post, you will notice that I talked about gay ACTIVISTS who are forcing this agenda. Of course I know that there are gay people who aren't involved in this political movement. In fact, many who OPPOSE re-defining marriage (e.g. Tammy Bruce) are shunned by the gay community for their position. Talk about being hypocritical. Look in the mirror.

I will need to return shortly in order to answer the rest of your post. But before I end this one, I want to point out that a Christian evangelist friend of mine tried to reach out to your community and was horribly mocked, demeaned, ridiculed and debased because he was successful at leaving homosexual attraction and orientation and now wants to minister to gays and lesbians who suffer from UNWANTED homosexual behavior. He and his family were bashed and treated so utterly shamefully by you and the blogzie crowd. It was truly ugly. A man who attempted to reach out with hope for the hurting through the power of Jesus Christ who worked a miracle in his life had been ridiculed ad nauseum by your so-called 'loving'?? gay friends. He attempted to start building a bridge, originally through a dialogue with Rosie O'Donnell, and she and her minions went ahead and blew the bridge up!!

Yes. I'm using hyperbole here. But the point I'm making is important. You see, there are thousands and thousands of ex-gay people (those who may have re-oriented through secular methods like NARTH and those who were rescued from their dilemma through being born-again in Jesus Christ)who are treated so miserably and horribly by their FORMER FRIENDS in the gay community. It is just sickening to me.

Another thing. If you don't like what I post and how I conduct my Christian life then don't come here and read! Go read blogzie's mindless crap and celebrate the spitballs of ignorance that goes on over there.

You see, I can spot someone who is searching for truth and reconciliation with God even through their hurts, troubles, pain and the walls that they put up. I can also spot a person who only comes to this blog with the purpose of attempting to steal a person's witness for Christ, kill the character and walk of such a person, and destroy the work that is being done in the name of Jesus Christ.

So don't come here and lecture me about how I should act as a Christian.

Look in the mirror for once and tell your friends to do the same before you start casting stones at me.

Clandestine said...

Okay, Christine.

I guess I thought we could have a calm, mature, adult conversation.

I was just curious about what you had written about lately, and saw the post and got frustrated.

Forget it.

One day, you will belong to a group whose rights will be threatened. At that point, I will stand by you and make sure you can maintain your Constitutional rights. I'm sorry you are not able to do that for other people.

And I never claimed to be a Christian, nor have I claimed to be perfect.

If I were Christian, though, and trying to witness to other people, no matter what they said, I'd try to at least treat them like a fellow human being should be treated. You clearly think you are better than I am, even though you don't know me at all.

I'm sorry for wasting your time.

Christinewjc said...


You are the one who came to this blog attacking me, my beliefs, my posts and comments. Do you not see this??

Here. Let's turn the tables on your first post.

What if I said to YOU:

1. Clandestine, it's amazing to me that you are so quick to point out anything you view as extremist if it opposes your views, but you won't acknowledge that 'your side' may use the same tactics you accuse others of using.

2. Clandestine, those pictures of bloody, chopped up, clearly 'to term' babies are ridiculous and offensive for so many reasons.

And then make the FALSE claim:

They lied, of course, and said they were what happens in an abortion

My question to you. Did you even go to the websites I had mentioned? Did you read Gianna Jessen's story? She is a LIVING EXAMPLE of someone who was to be aborted by the Salt Poisoning a.k.a. "Candy Apple Babies" method when her birth mom was 7/1/2 months pregnant! Of course babies aborted in this manner and at that gestation will appear fully formed and "full term" as you had stated. It is not the photos that lie, it is your mind that refuses to acknowledge the truth about this awful abortion procedure.

It appears to me that you have fallen for the lie you have conjured up so you wouldn't have to face the disgusting reality of what abortion truly is and truly does to unborn babies.

You stated: "Whatever you believe, you should recognize that it's not all true."

How do you know? What makes you the expert? BTW, you never did answer my question:

If there is such a thing as absolute truth, where would you be more likely to find it?

You didn't even mention or address the fact that the religious rights of David Parker were being violated. I wonder why? Oh I know. You admit to "not claiming to be Christian." So, this is your excuse for not seeing this man's point of view and desire to raise his son as he sees fit? C'mon. Speaks volumes!

Now this is truly a gem:

Clandestine said, "One day, you will belong to a group whose rights will be threatened."

My dear woman! I am ALREADY a member of a group whose rights are being violated!! Christian persecution may amount to words, ugly defamation and court battles here, but in other countries fellow Christian believers are being murdered and massacred on a daily basis by brutal dictators and corrupt governments. Do you ever watch anything other than CNN? If not, you're missing a great deal by staying in your ideological bunker.

Clandestine said, "If I were Christian, though, and trying to witness to other people, no matter what they said, I'd try to at least treat them like a fellow human being should be treated."

You are right about that. I did lose my temper and I apologize for that. I'm not perfect either, but I should have tried harder to keep my emotions in check. Every time I think about the mistreatment of Stephen Bennett by your crowd I just tend to boil over. I thought that his gesture towards Rosie and her crowd was quite admirable. I saw it as a unique effort at approaching a civil dialogue that might ultimately lead to reconciliation between two camps that differ so greatly on societal issues. Unfortunately, it fell apart so quickly and the personal attacks against him seemed endless.

I have several ex-gay friends whom I met through his ministry and my blog. I tend to get upset when any one of them is attacked by anyone; especially just because others who haven't experienced this release from bondage see such a change as threatening. These newfound sisters and brothers in Christ had submitted to Jesus, confessed their sin and changed their sexual orientation/behavior due to the forgiveness, mercy, grace and love through Christ. I see this as a very good thing. You probably don't. But I do tend to get like a female lion out to protect her cubs!!

Clandestine said, "You clearly think you are better than I am, even though you don't know me at all."

Nope. Not true. If you truly knew what Christianity is all about you would not have even made such a statement. don't know me at all either.

Clandestine said...

As you probably saw on SB's blog back in the day, I have a hard time not answering questions posed directly to me.

There are no "crowds," Christine. That all ended for me in middle school. But, using these two blogs as an example, let's review what happened. Stephen started a blog and said he wanted people to discuss highly controversial issues in order to help us all understand each other better. I thought that was such a great idea. I felt like a lot of people were really able to discuss things, while a few people tainted the discussion by constantly throwing it off course. However, I was willing to continue. But SB got worried or stressed or something, and started telling people they were no longer welcome. Granted, some things that were said - by "all crowds" - were not as respectful as they could have been, but those were a few. However, one by one, he found a reason to get rid of everyone who didn't agree with him. HE told US to go away. And we did. I, for one, wanted the conversation to continue. Because as mad as it may make me that some people don't think I deserve basic human rights, we all have to live in the world together. And the world is a MESS! And that's NOT because of gay people or because of abortion or because of the right-wing or because of anything like that. It's because people cannot get along. Because everyone (and I'm not excluding myself) wants to be right all the time. So, while you may feel that "my crowd" was disrespectful, I feel the same way about other people. And I am still disappointed over the demise of what SB's blog could have been. It gave me hope to see that people with such different views could get along. Clearly, though, I was naive to think we could. But please remember who kicked whom out.

I didn't comment on the man with the child in kindegarten with the diversity pack because I didn't feel like I really had anything to say about it. When people with different ideas about life try to get along, mistakes are made. I don't know how that situation should have been handled. But, it was a public school. There are children there with two mommies or two daddies. There are children there who have bi-racial parents. There are children with disabilities and with family members with disabilities. Do those children not deserve to feel like whole, equal human beings? Have you considered what gay parents have had to tell their children about that whole episode? The reality of life is that there are gay people and sometimes, we have children. And if you are going to send your kids to public school, everyone is going to have to get along. How can you create a welcome environment for everyone if one person believes another is inferior simply because of the gender of their parents? I don't think he needed to be arrested. However, all of the children at the school deserve to feel safe, and perhaps the teachers thought the book would help. Besides, wasn't the pack sent home and optional? I don't know the details of that situation, but I don't think it was handled as well as it could have been.

And abortion - do you think that anyone thinks it's pleasant??? I'm pretty sure nobody thinks that abortion is easy or ideal. I don't want to get into this, because we are definitely not going to agree, and neither of us will be swayed. However, I simply believe abortion needs to be legal because sometimes, women will not allow themselves to have a baby, and if abortion is not legal, they will seek out back-alley abortions, they will use clothes hangers, they will throw themselves down the stairs, they will kill themselves. Teenaged-girls in particular. For them, it needs to be legal. A better tactic than trying to make it illegal would be to try to educate people and help them obtain all of the information. But some people will not have babies, and they deserve a safe way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Why do you act as if I attacked or even insulted any ex-gay person, simply based on that? I don't understand why you're doing that. I don't want this to sound cold, because I don't mean it that way, but I simply don't care if a person is straight, gay, bisexual, ex-gay, whatever. Who cares? I don't care. None of that bothers me. It just bothers me that none of us can get along for some reason.

I also don't claim to know anything about you beyond what you say. I know that, frankly, you come accross as sort of mean. I don't say that because you are Christian or because we don't agree. I say that because you seem to lose your temper and jump to conclusions a lot. I'm not trying to attack you. I just really don't know why people who don't have the same beliefs can't get along. It frustrates me that anyone thinks they can take another person's rights away. I just believe that all people deserve a chance to be happy and to lead the sort of life they were meant to live, assuming, of course, that they're not hurting anyone. My life doesn't hurt you. The fact that I share a bed with another woman may bother you, but it doesn't affect your life. Do you see what I'm saying?

I know that you think that the Truth is that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is doomed. I don't know if that's true or not, of course, but it seems unlikely. Regardless, it is your right to believe that. However, I don't know why you/other people can't see that your truth is not mine, and I shouldn't have to be controlled by your religious beliefs.

I feel like I try really hard to understand all sides of an argument. But it seems to me that you're not interested in anything I have to say. It seems to me (and perhaps I'm wrong) that you are simply interested in discrediting everything I say.

You took what I said about defending your Constitutional rights out of context. That's all I want to say about that.

And, what I said about not everything being true was also taken out of context. I was referring to those bloody gross pictures of chopped up babies. Can you not admit that that is an extreme tactic used to prove a point? Can you not admit that everyone tries to find extreme examples to prove their point?

The truth, as I always say, of any issue, is usually somewhere in the middle.

I'm not an expert on anything, really. I don't claim to be.

The moral of my long, boring tale is that I just wish somehow we could all find a way to coexist in a peaceful, pleasant way. I just don't think the most important issue is who's right and who's wrong. I think that the crucial point is that if we all don't start trying to figure out how to live on the same planet, we're going to destroy ourselves. And I'm sure that, not only do you and I not want that, it's not what Jesus would want either!

Christinewjc said...


Jesus also told us:

John 16:33 (KJV) - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The NLT version states:

John 16:33 (NLT) - I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world."

You see, Clandestine, we live in a fallen world because of sin. Our hope is not to be in this world, but in Jesus. He is the Prince of Peace, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Despite all the turmoil going on in the world, we can have peace in our hearts because of what he did at the cross to redeem sinful mankind and reconcile us unto God the Father.

I know. You don't believe all of this. That is your free will choice.

But Jesus was realistic when he taught his disciples. During his 3 year ministry on earth (and this same teaching comes to us through his written Word as recorded by Holy Spirit led men), Jesus warned us that not all would accept what we share. After all, he is the Son of God who rose from the dead and many did not (and still do not) believe in him, back then or today. Jesus predicted and told us this would be so.

Luke 16:31 - And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is a fact of history even though some people choose not to believe it. There were over 300 prophecies written over a period of hundreds of years in the Old Testament that were fulfilled (and some, still to be fulfilled when Christ returns) by Jesus. For one Man to fulfill all of these prophecies would require God's hand in the past, present and future of said history. One example is in Psalms 55:12-14, we see a Messianic prophecy because these words also describe Judas' betrayal of Christ (Matthew 26:14-16, 20-25) Jesus often quoted from the Psalms which 'testify of him.' There are dozens of examples I could give you. Almost everything that happened at the crucifixion and most of Jesus words during his final hours are prophesied in Psalms. I have a chart of this and when I find it I will post it here.

Back to the main point.

Jesus also told us that belief in him would cause disagreement and strife; even between members of our own families. In fact, he told us that the world would not necessarily hate his followers, but their hate would be because of their belief in Jesus. The following verse tells us why.

John :7 - The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

When Christians share what God sees (as recorded in the Bible) as sin, evil, hate and death, the world hates and rejects that message because it convicts them of the state of their souls.

I'll tell you what God's Word says that Jesus wants. He doesn't want anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance and live for eternity with Him in heaven. We all must answer his question:

Who do you say that I am? Luke 19:20

How one answers that question will determine where your soul will spend eternity. What's your answer?

Clandestine said...

That definitely had nothing to do with what I said, but that's okay - I wrote far too much - nobody should read that much! :)

Anyway - the thing is that I can agree with everything you said in that post, and it wouldn't matter to you, because my interpretation of what Jesus taught and what the Bible says is different from yours. You are convinced you are right, so even if I were to say that yes - I believe everything Jesus ever said, etc., etc., it wouldn't matter to you. Because for some reason, that is not, even though you say it is, the most important part.

The most important part to you, it seems, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that a person believe in Jesus, the Bible and God in exactly the same way you do. Otherwise, they're doomed. So I can believe that Jesus was right, but you wouldn't care. Because you'll never hear me say that I think someone who doesn't believe in Jesus will be doomed to eternal Hell. You'll never hear me say that Jesus would have doomed gay people.

So I don't really know what you want me to say. You don't want me to "accept Jesus Christ" in the way that I believe He would have wanted us to take his teachings, you want me to say that I accept Him in the way YOU believe He would have wanted.

I don't think I could live with myself or my God if I thought the only people on this whole, entire planet who were not going to suffer eternal damnation were the people who agreed with my religous beliefs. That's such a sad way to live. All the Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics, Unitarian Universalists, Taoists, Muslims, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Jehovah's Witnesses, atheists, American Indians, agnostics, etc., etc., etc.?! EVERYONE except this teeny tiny minority of people who believe just like you do. I guess you wouldn't want to be friends with anyone who believed differently than you, because that would be very sad - to know that people you love are going to be doomed? I mean, I suppose it would make you feel elite and superior, but still - how do you look at little children, nuns, librarians, teachers, police officers, firemen, waitresses, waiters - and think that all of these people, no matter how much good they bring to the world, will be doomed? Laura Bush, for goodness sake!

I don't know, Christine. I don't know what you want me to say.

Jojo said...

Hi Clandestine,

I have been reading the posts between you and Christine and after your last post, I decided to comment. I am confused as to what you are saying.

You said, "So I can believe that Jesus was right, but you wouldn't care. Because you'll never hear me say that I think someone who doesn't believe in Jesus will be doomed to eternal Hell. "

This is contradictory to me because Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." He also says many other things about this that I do not have time to look up right now. But my point is, you say Jesus is right but you don't think people who don't deny Him will go to hell.

One other things you said "how do you look at little children, nuns, librarians, teachers, police officers, firemen, waitresses, waiters - and think that all of these people, no matter how much good they bring to the world, will be doomed? Laura Bush, for goodness sake!

It is not what someone does that condemns them to hell. We are all sinners and are doomed to hell. The key is what we DO do. If we repent of our sin and accept what Jesus did for us, by faith, then we will be saved. Little children are not doomed to hell until the age of accountability. When ever they are old enough to understand their sin separates them from God is what is meant here. Laura Bush is a Christian, so I didn't understand why you used her as an example. It is all about agreeing with Jesus and allowing Him to be Lord of our lives.

I wish this didn't have to be such a separating obstacle - but like Christine said, Jesus himself talked about this very thing. We simply cannot take bits and pieces of the Bible and try to make sense from it. We must use all of the Bible to know how to interpret it. I hope my words do not seem harsh - I never want to push you away Clandi. But I just wanted to try to clarify from what I know and believe.

Clandestine said...

Jojo, you never seem harsh. You're a very reasonable person and I really respect you for that.

What I was trying to say was that it doesn't matter if I believe Jesus or not, to Christine, because I don't believe He would have taught what Christine believes he taught. There are things he didn't say, that you and Christine and a whole bunch of other people believe he would have said. There are a whole lot of things he is presumed to have said that can be interpreted in different ways. So, when Christine asks me whether or not I believe in her version of Jesus, I'd have to say no. Because from what I was taught in church and from what I believe from reading the Bible, is not the same as what Christine believes from doing those same things.

There are so many different Christian churches, and they don't all believe the same way. It just seems amazing to me that some people can say that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

I totally understand what you believe. I just will never believe the same thing. Whatever I think of Jesus, it will never be what you think.

So, my main point was that when Christine quotes the Bible and asks me my opinion, she's not looking for me to give my real opinion because that is not what she thinks will get me "saved." She thinks that unless I have the same interpretation of the Bible that she does, I will be doomed to Hell. It just seems absurd and sad to me that anyone can say that they and their religion are the only people who will not be tortured for all of eternity...

That may or may not have cleared things up...let me know...

Christinewjc said...


It is not my opinion or Jojo's opinion or even your opinion that counts. It is what the Bible says and what Jesus said before, during and after he physically came and walked the earth.

This is Jesus speaking:

John 8:24 (NKJV)- Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Jesus is the one that told people that they would die in their sins if they did not believe in him.

Jesus also said we MUST be born again. He didn't say maybe. He didn't say it was a suggestion. He didn't say being a good person will do it. He didn't say that no one would be judged for their sin. He told Nicodemus that in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven, you must be born again.

John 3:3 (NIV) In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Do you understand what Jesus is saying?

In Romans, we are told that EVERY knee shall one day bow before Jesus Christ. Not before Buddha. Not before Muhammed. Not before any other god you might list.

Only Jesus.

Romans 14:11 (NLT) - For the Scriptures say,
"`As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
`every knee will bow to me
and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.'"
Isa 45:23.

The book of Revelation records what John saw happening in his vision of the future during Christ's return to earth.

EVERY knee means believers and non-believers. Those who do not choose to be born again in Jesus Christ (as Jojo mentioned, by the age of accountability) will die in their sins. Those who are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus at the cross are saved from eternal separation from God.

It is not my idea, Clandestine. It is not my interpretation. The Bible is crystal clear in its message here. Jesus said the very words quoted in the Scriptures. There is no doubt that this is what was meant. All of the twisting, denying and rejection in the world will not change what Jesus said to us and did for us. The question remains for us all, Who do you (personally) say that Jesus is?

Clandestine said...


Are you even reading what I'm writing? You had no response to my comment - what was it - 3 back. And you're not "listening" to what I'm saying.

Let's put it in the form of a question (and I'm not saying what I believe, I'm posing a question)-

What if I told you that I believe everything you had written in that post? What if I told you that I agree that "no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." What if I told you that I believe Jesus was "the way, the truth, and the light?" You would then be forced to tell me that, okay, I'm going heaven with the rest of y'all.


You'd say that I am not as Christian as you are, and I'm not as right as you are because I don't believe that gay people are doomed. Even if we went no further than that. Even if I believe everything Jesus taught, you'd still say I'm doomed. Because of our INTERPRETATION of the rest of the Bible.

So what is more important? Hating gay people who practice their feelings, or believe in Jesus's teachings?

Could I be anymore straightforward here?

Jojo said...


So are you saying that you believe the only way to heaven is thru Jesus? Is that right?

Clandestine said...

Hi Jojo,

I'm not saying anything about my own beliefs. I'm trying (albeit not very well) to prove a point, or to at least start a discussion.

I'm saying that what's important to some born-again Christians is not really that a person believes in Jesus, but that a person believes in exactly the way they do. Using Christine as an example, therefore, I'm trying to figure out if what's important to her is that a person believes that Jesus is 'the way, the truth, and the light,' or if it is more important that they believe in specifically the same way she does.

Example: I grew up attending a Christian church. There, the minister taught that Jesus was the son of God and the ultimate 'teacher,' if you will. Believing in Him and His teachings and doing the best you could to live the way He would have wanted was the way to heaven (although I can't remember them ever talking about hell, but that's beside the point). So, if I believe exactly what my church taught, I'd believe what you and Christine are asking me. However, that would not be enough, in Christine's mind, because I don't think that Jesus would have thought that monogomous, committed, gay relationships were a one-way ticket to h-e-double hockey sticks.

Does that make sense? Do you see what I'm trying to get at?

Jojo said...


I think I see what you are trying to get at. But the thing is, Christine and I have never met, except thru blogging, and we didn't grow up in the same church or under the same teaching. Yet, we both agree on the same interpretation of the Bible. That is because we are both under the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

I understand how hard it is to understand and how it seems "judgmental" because that is how I used to feel, before I knew the Bible myself. I used to think that God couldn't possibly send "good people" to hell. I used to think it couldn't possibly be wrong to have sex outside of marriage when love was the motivation and you were in a committed relationship. But now I don't believe any of the same things. That is because before, I used to take bits and pieces of what I heard it church and mix it with lots of what the world said and that is what my beliefs were based on. Then when I began studying the Bible. my whole interpretation and knowledge changed.

I was not in a Bible study of a certain church denomination. I was in a non-denominational study that focused on what God's Word says. There were several different studies on different books of the Bible or subjects from the Bible. That got me started and now I continue to seek and grow - understanding that my knowledge will never be complete until I get to heaven. But all Scripture is useful to teaching, rebuking correcting and training in righteousness.