Thursday, January 19, 2006

The Ugliness of Celebrating Sin

The latest sleaze, sin and stupidity that makes up most of HollyWEIRD and their ilk is certainly proof positive that David Kupelian was right on the money when he titled his book, "The Marketing of Evil."

In an article titled No Christian Hoorays for Hollywood," Janice Crouse points out the fact that, "Once again, the media elites are proving that their pet projects are more important than profit."

"None of the three movies - Capote, Transamerica or Brokeback Mountain - is a box office hit. Brokeback Mountain has barely topped $US25million ($33million) in ticket sales.

"If America isn't watching these films, why are they winning the awards?"

Why indeed!

It is because the blueprint plan of Madsen and Kirk continues, to this day, to desensitize and jam their homosexual agenda upon mainstream America...a majority of whom, by the way, DOES NOT WANT THIS!

I was pleased to see my friend Stephen Bennett quoted in the article. If you haven't discovered his ministry and Straight Talk Radio yet, I urge you to begin listening and, if you can, financially supporting, the broadcasts online.

Gay activists are currently busy attempting to squelch this dedicated Christian man and his wife Irene from their freedom of speech rights by falsely labeling their Christian ministry outreach as "hate speech."

So typical...

Of course, this must mean that Straight Talk Radio's success with mainstream America has the gay activists angry.

GOOD!

I, for one, am very glad to hear that!!

It should come as no surprise that the HollyWEIRD Foreign Press couldn't bring themselves to acknowledge the huge box office success of The Chronicles of Narnia.

No.

Of course not!

Why?

Because it appealed to the majority of mainstream America?

Because it was a Christian-themed movie?

Because it didn't have any sex in it?

Because it was wholesome, entertaining, and friendly family fare?

How about all of the above?

The additional immoral subjects glorified by the trashy Golden? Globe voters aren't any better:

"Religious groups also pointed to the alleged political agenda of winners such as George Clooney, who won for his supporting role in Syriana, a film about the ethical pitfalls of the oil business; and Mary Louise Parker, who was rewarded for her performance in Weeds, a television comedy about a suburban mother turned marijuana dealer."

I'm so disappointed with Mary Louise Parker. I just loved her role in "Fried Green Tomatoes," but now she chooses to star in a TV show that pushes (pardon the pun) marijuana use as something humorous.

Yeah.

Right.

Rather than waking up and 'smelling the dope', she and others involved in such a stupid excuse for entertainment need to wake up and see the damage they are doing by promoting pot smoking to the teen audience!!

Yes. David Kupelian is exactly correct! The marketing of things evil is NOT always just for profit; it is often used to sell corruption. This group called the "Hollywood Foreign Press" is the absolute epitome of what David labels as, "radicals, elitists and pseudo-experts" who are intent on pushing their agenda, even to the detriment of the bottom line profit at America's box offices.

For shame!

And, get this:

"Other winners included Philip Seymour Hoffman, named Best Actor for his portrayal of the homosexual writer Truman Capote; and Felicity Huffman, the Desperate Housewives star who played a transsexual with a gay prostitute son in Transamerica. "

Other winners?? A transsexual with a gay prostitute son is considered a winning storyline? Give me a gay ole' time break!!

What's scary is that many Hollyweird actors and actresses just trudge along in lockstep with these corruption leaders.

I often wonder, don't they have minds of their own?

Or, are they just robots programmed to be ignorant, sinful and evil?

Even when one of the actors from Brokeback Mountain mentioned that he felt uncomfortable acting out a gay cowboy sex scene in the movie, he claimed that the reason must have been because he still has some "homophobia" to overcome.

Yeah right!

That's an indoctrination line right out of Kirk and Madsen's "After the Ball" manual for marketing the gay rights agenda! The actor just couldn't bring himself to admit or acknowledge that there is most likely a God-given reason for his aversion!

Stephen's latest broadcasts on the study of the book of Romans deals with such aversion and points out why God gave men and women a conscience to distinguish right from wrong. It is an excellent study and I urge everyone reading this to listen online !

So, in conclusion, let's count up all of the sins being celebrated with the sleazy Golden? Globe Awards:

1. homosexuality
2. bisexuality
3. adultery
4. lying
5. cheating
6. drug use
7. drug pushing
8. transexualism
9. prostitution
10. deception
11. divorce
12. disparaging Christian faith

And, I'll just take a wild guess that a movie or two included:
13. taking the Lord's name in vain

I'm sure that I left some out! If so, please post them!

This is good for America?

Never!!

It is just so ugly and sad!


39 comments:

Joe Brummer said...

Interesting points you have made Christine, but I thought I would point out to you that BrokBack Mountain is a blockbuster hit. It is number 1 at the box office right now.

Here is the link to the sales and info at the box office these days.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/

I will also add that art reflects life. It doesn't celebrate things, it brings them into the light. I fail to see how a movie about two men whose lives were destroyed by society's oppression celebrates homosexuality. It doesn't exactly make people want to be gay. In fact in makes being gay look painful, and destructive. It seems interesting how you can make that sound like a celebration.

You artilce also fails to address how the Golden Globes winners are chosen. It is not based on box office success but on artistic merit. So why are these movies, that are "not hits" as you say, winning awards. That would be because they are well made movies.

Your promotion of STR is nice for Stephen and Irene. It just fails to take into account the fact Stephen and Irene hurt far more people than they help.

Christinewjc said...

Joe,

The Bible is absolute truth and says it better than I ever could:


If anyone wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins (James 5:19,20).

Boo said...

Christine,

Hence my quixotic quest to get you to acknowledge that most of the opinions about gay people you uncritically pass along here are based on lies.

So, once again: the claim that an obscure book written 17 years ago is "the blueprint" for the gay rights movement is untrue.

There is nothing deceptive about getting the media to present positive portrayals of gay people.

Stephen Bennett's radio program issues a constant stream of untruths and stereotypes.

"Hate Crimes Laws," while possibly misguided, are no threat whatsoever to freedom of speech in this country unless their proponents can somehow overturn the First Amendment, which they do not seem interested in doing anyway.

While Ake Green should never have been prosecuted, his sermons did contain a number of untruths about gay people and he revealed himself to be a complete and utter hypocrite by calling for the prosecution of Fred Phelps for his anti-Swede comments.

I haven't seen Transamerica, but from what I understand the main theme is the main character attempting to reconnect with her family, so that does seem fairly pro-family. I also doubt it "celebrates" the son's prostitution. (Does Chariots of Fire "celebrate" the anti-semitism of the college dons?)

I have seen Brokeback Mountain, and it definitely does not "celebrate" adultery, deception, or divorce. It presents them as tragic for everyone involved.

If Hollywood shied away from presenting awards to movies with Christian themes I doubt Lord of the Rings would have won so many Oscars.

God's Word is not served by promoting untruth.

Christinewjc said...

Lies, Boo?

Untruths, Boo?

C'mon.

Our consciences tell us right from wrong; even without the Bible. The Bible tells us homosexuality is wrong because IT IS WRONG! God's Word is perfectly clear on this sin as well as other sin issues.

Your arguments are, quite frankly, inane. Especially when used as an attempt to counter the absolute truth of the Bible.

1 Corinthians 6:9 -10

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(bold mine - refers to homosexual behavior)


1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 - Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You seriously need to listen to Stephen's latest broadcast. The entire series of the book of Romans will prove YOU wrong in your false assumptions.

Do you remember the following reply that I wrote to you a while back? Did you ever go to each verse of the Bible and see what they say? If I were to make a guess, the answer would most likely be no.

Perhaps you should reconsider and do just that. Then we will see just who is promoting untruths here.

*******

Previous post:

It is not my interpretation. Have you ever heard of hermeneutics? It is the art or science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures. It is the branch of theology that deals with the principles of Biblical exegesis.

As I stated previously, the Bible verses which discuss homosexual behavior are crystal clear. No amount of twisting or re-interpretation could ever take away the original meaning which was being conveyed by God through the writers.

I am re-posting the following reply that I have given previously to those who often make the dubious claim that "Jesus never said anything about homosexuality." I realize that those who do not adhere to God's Word nor accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior can ignore what is written, however, it does use accurate hermeneutics which obviously creates a profound case for the Biblical interpretation that homosexual behavior is an abomination to God and sin.

*******

Christ did say that God created people “in the beginning” as male and female, and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman joined together as “one flesh.” (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9) Nothing is said about any other type of union.


When He discussed sexual morality, Christ had a very high standard, clearly affirming long-standing Jewish law. He told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more.” (John 8:11) He warned people not only that the act of adultery was wrong, but even adulterous thoughts. (Matthew 5:28) And he shamed the woman at the well (John 4:18) by pointing out to her that he knew she was living with a man who was not her husband.


Christ used the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God’s wrath ( Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11,Luke 10:12, and Luke 17:29). Throughout the Old Testament, prophets clearly described these cities as being notorious for the practice of homosexuality. (Genesis 18:20, Genesis 19:4-5, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekiel 16:46-59). Jesus certainly knew that this was how the comparison would be understood.


Christ was God incarnate (in the flesh) here on earth. He was the long-expected Messiah, which was revealed in Matthew 16:13- 20, Matthew 17:5-9, Mark 8:27-30, Luke 4:16-30, Luke 9: 18-21,John 4:25-26, John 8:57-59 and elsewhere. As one with God, He was present from the beginning (John 1: 1-13; Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 and elsewhere). So, Jesus was part of the Godhead as the laws were handed down through Moses to Israel and eventually to the whole world. This Old Testament law clearly prohibited homosexuality (Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:18 and elsewhere). The apostles understood this also, as shown by Paul’s writing in Romans 1:24-27, Peter’s in 2 Peter 2:4-22, and John’s in Revelation 22:15.

So--the apostles, who were taught by Christ, clearly understood that homosexuality was a sin as it has always been. When people say, “Jesus said nothing about homosexuality,” they reveal that they really haven’t understood Scripture, or Who Christ is. Maybe some of these points can help them toward a clearer understanding.

*******

I am including two responses to this post that make the point even clearer.


Post ID: 709 Posted by: pool6x, 2005-09-17 02:13:00

This was an excellent reply based upon the truth of the Bible. Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality...everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (part of the Godhead) is dittoing it.


Post ID: 716 Posted by: nitsuard, 2005-09-19 01:44:26

Excellent indeed! But I had a bad link to the original article and hope to read it b4 continuing my comments except to say that John 1 explains that Christ was GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible.

Joe Brummer said...

Christine,
It is so sad for you my friend, that you have chosen to close your eyes to reality. Your answers to very important questions about injustice are really bible verses that do not address the real issue at hand. Can you answer to these comments with your voice and your thoughts or do you just want to hide behind other's words?

One cannot take a group of people and daily vilify them on a 1/2 hour radio program and expect that isn't hurting anyone. I have said before and I will say again, I am sure Stephen and Irene mean well, but they like you and me, they are victims of the untruth. We are all victims of the untruth.

Stephen's show is very damaging because he portrays an entire popualtion of people as all being the same. As all being in control of the media, disesed, after people's children, all on drugs, anti-god, and anti-bible and those things are just not true. To constantly do this day in and day out is injustice. It has been done before and I would hope we as a society learned from the first time around with the Jews and Hitler.

I am sure you have the best of intentions in the things you say. I think it is great that religion is an important piece in your life. I am sadden that you have chosen to close your eyes, stamp your feet and proclaim for the world you have the truth. I can also claim I have truths, but we cannot both be right. So what is the middle ground? That maybe you are wrong about what you believe about gays, and maybe I am wrong about what I think about the bible. Conversation and understanding might work in finding the truth. You seem unwilling to look at both sides of the story.

I am not taking actions to stop Stephen Bennett. I am taking actions to stop what I see as gross injustice. Maybe before critizing what others do you should take the time to understand it first. If after looking at the case you still feel I am wrong, okay then. But you should really try to understand that maybe you are wrong too. We are all victims of the untruth.

Christinewjc said...

Joe: "It is so sad for you my friend, that you have chosen to close your eyes to reality."

Sorry Joe, but it is you who have chosen to close your eyes to the truth.

Joe: "Your answers to very important questions about injustice are really bible verses that do not address the real issue at hand."

The Bible verses are not my answers, they are God's answers to the problems of mankind. They most certainly DO address the REAL issue at hand. You apparently have chosen to keep the blinders of gay activism and the scales of sin over your eyes.

Joe: "Can you answer to these comments with your voice and your thoughts or do you just want to hide behind other's words?"

I could accuse you of hiding behind the thoughts and words of gay activists. Let's see now...which is better to choose...God's word or the deception of gay activists? Hmmmm.....

Joe: "We are all victims of the untruth."

Says who? How do you know this? Where is absolute truth found? Do you believe there is such a thing as absolute truth? Why or why not?

Joe: "Stephen's show is very damaging because he portrays an entire popualtion of people as all being the same."

That's a lie and you know it.

Joe: "To constantly do this day in and day out is injustice."

No, it's called free speech. Just because you don't like what he and Irene are saying doesn't mean that others are not learning the truth of God's Word. The injustice exists in the gay agenda indoctrination going on through people like you and the groups you support. Their goal is to squelch the voices that don't agree with their propaganda. But all of America us not fooled, Joe. Your claim that sharing the truth of God's Word with the public is somehow related to Hitler would be laughable...if it wasn't so genuinely sad that you have been brainwashed in such obvious deception.

Joe: "I am sadden that you have chosen to close your eyes, stamp your feet and proclaim for the world you have the truth."

I am not claiming that I have the truth. God's Word has the truth. I am involved with sharing it with as many people as I can; including homosexuals who are willing to listen. Those who reject, disparage and/or choose to ignore the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ, (cling to their prideful sin, and ignore Jesus' admonition to repent and turn to Him) do so at their own peril.

Joe: "I can also claim I have truths, but we cannot both be right."

There is only one truth. No matter how you might like to spin it, there can be only one truth. I turn to Jesus Christ and the Bible for the truth. Whom do you turn to, Joe?

Joe: "So what is the middle ground?"

I have been through this claim that there should be a middle ground on this issue. Problem is, that is a morally relativistic position. Like the subtitle of the book "Relativism" states, it is an attempt to "plant your feet firmly in mid-air." In our natural world where gravity exists, this is impossible. In the spiritual world where Jesus Christ reigns, there is no middle ground. He has told us that if we do not repent and believe in Him, we will die in our sins. What is your choice, Joe?

Joe: "Conversation and understanding might work in finding the truth."

Yes it might. But how should we proceed?

Joe: "You seem unwilling to look at both sides of the story."

I have examined both sides for over 6 years now. I know more about gay life and their agenda than I would ever want to know. I am learning more each and every day, too. But I will not compromise the truth of God's Word for the sake of existing in an impossible "middle ground" realm. That's just reality. God has the last word on these matters and I believe Him over and above any secular humanistic teacher who knows not the truth which is only found in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Joe: " am not taking actions to stop Stephen Bennett. "

That's a lie. I have seen your website, blog and links that are hell bent on destroying his ministry.

Joe: "I am taking actions to stop what I see as gross injustice."

Injustice to whom? Do you even know what you are claiming here? How can bringing the saving grace of Jesus Christ into the lives of others be seen as a gross injustice? It is only seen that way by those who reject Jesus Christ. And we all know what happens then.

I understand the issues at stake all too well, Joe. What it boils down to is this. Jesus Christ is the truth. You either accept or reject Him. No matter how hard you want to "stamp your feet" in the blogosphere and criticize ex-gay ministry efforts and those who support them, the truth is that each day, one by one, they are helping to lead your homosexual brothers and lesbian sisters to salvation. Nothing is this life is more important than that.

I pray that one day your eyes will be opened and you will find the correct answer to Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?"

Joe Brummer said...

Joe: "I am taking actions to stop what I see as gross injustice."

Injustice to whom? Do you even know what you are claiming here? How can bringing the saving grace of Jesus Christ into the lives of others be seen as a gross injustice? It is only seen that way by those who reject Jesus Christ. And we all know what happens then.



Joe replies:

Injustice to all those gays and lesbians Stephen doesn't talk about. The happy, healthy, ones that he never mentions. The ones who are raising families, going to their churches....I see that you don't mention those either. That is called "deception by omission" You haven't told the whole story, Christine. When you don't give all the facts, it is as good as lying.

Juan Buhler said...

I would like to point out that in the same way that God doesn't approve of homosexuality, he doesn't approve of eating shrimp, either:


And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you
(Leviticus, 11:10)


Are you also against people eating shrimp? If not, then why not? I certainly hope your efforts against eating "all that have no fins and scales" are as strong as your efforts against homosexual people seem to be. You certainly don't seem like a moral relativist...

Christinewjc said...

Hello Juan Buhler,

I have heard similar arguments before. There is a huge difference between the dietary laws (such as the shrimp example you gave) and the moral laws set down by God through Moses in Leviticus.

This commentary might help clear up the need for the warning in that verse:

Commentary by Robert Jamieson:

9. These shall ye eat . . . whatsoever hath fins and scales--"The fins and scales are the means by which the excrescences of fish are carried off, the same as in animals by perspiration. I have never known an instance of disease produced by eating such fish; but those that have no fins and scales cause, in hot climates, the most malignant disorders when eaten; in many cases they prove a mortal poison" [WHITLAW].

12. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales, &c.--Under this classification frogs, eels, shellfish of all descriptions, were included as unclean; "many of the latter (shellfish) enjoy a reputation they do not deserve, and have, when plentifully partaken of, produced effects which have led to a suspicion of their containing something of a poisonous nature."

*******

Unclean shellfish may cause health problems, and, if a person is sickened enough, even physical death. But unrepented sexual immorality causes not only health problems (as we see with the rampant STD's), and often leads to physical death, but also spiritual problems that leads to spiritual death and separation from God forever. See the difference?

The fact is that we are ALL an abominition in the radiant white light of God's perfect righteousness and holiness! That includes me, you, Joe, Stephen Bennett, Irene Bennett and every other person who has ever lived or will live. Why? Because we are born with a sin nature passed down through Adam and Eve. We have ALL broken God's Laws and deserve the punishment of death. Period.

Do you honestly believe that you are a good person? If so, go here and take this test. Let me know if you pass it. You will be the first.

We are all in need of the Savior, Juan. Ultimately, that is what every Christian ex-gay ministry is about. Just as someone who struggles with any other type of sin, these ministries exist to specifically help homosexuals learn the truth about God and salvation.

Jesus came and paid the price for our sin on the cross. His resurrection from the dead (a fact of history) proved that he is who he claimed to be when he walked this earth. He is the Son of God, Savior and Lord.

Juan: "I certainly hope your efforts against eating "all that have no fins and scales" are as strong as your efforts against homosexual people seem to be."

I'm glad that you said, "seem to be" when you accused me of being against homosexual people. The fact is that if I were really against homosexual people, why would I support ministries and efforts that exist to encourage them to be saved through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and gain the power of the Holy Spirit to live in their hearts now, as well as live in fellowship with Jesus, me, and every other Christian believer forever in eternity?

Juan, I sincerely hope and pray today that you go to the Straight Talk Radio site and listen to the concluding message on the Romans chapter. I pray that you will answer the call of Jesus Christ and make that life-changing decision for him. Jesus is knocking on the door to your heart, Juan. You are here at this blog for a reason; and it's not to debate about shellfish and the term abomination. Jesus is calling to you and asking you, "Who do you say that I am."

I'm praying for you -

Christinewjc said...

Joe: "Injustice to all those gays and lesbians Stephen doesn't talk about. The happy, healthy, ones that he never mentions. The ones who are raising families, going to their churches....I see that you don't mention those either. That is called "deception by omission" You haven't told the whole story, Christine. When you don't give all the facts, it is as good as lying."

Joe, it isn't about happiness and health. It's about holiness and righteousness. It's about God's love and desire for us to be reconciled unto Him through the power of Christ's sacrificial death on the cross and subsequent resurrection to life.

Our spirits are like "dead men." Why? Because of sin. Sin separates us from our Holy and Righteous Father in heaven. Jesus told us that the only way to be saved is to repent and believe that he is who he said he is. The one and only Son of God, Savior and Lord. Repentance is essential. John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus' ministry and in Luke 3:3-6 tells us of the importance of repentance.

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; (bold mine)

Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways [shall be] made smooth;


Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Upon conversion, Jesus told us, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." The desire to sin willfully is alleviated and we desire to follow Christ in righteousness and holiness. This is called sanctification. The Holy Spirit's indwelling helps us to avoid temptation to sin and our desire is to please God before self.

We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. We will never be perfect here on this earth. But the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin because the scales have fallen from our eyes and we see our desire to please God more important than any sinful desire we once may have had.

On the other hand, to willfully continue in sin that one would refuse to repent of is an indication that the person may be a false convert. They may claim Jesus as Savior, but they haven't allowed him to be Lord of their lives.

Going to church, being happy, being healthy do not save souls from eternal damnation. Only the gospel of Christ can do that. He is the way, the truth and the life. NO one comes to the Father but by HIM.

Boo said...

Christine:

When I condemn the lies you and Stephen Bennett pass along I am not speaking of the Bible. I accept that we have differing interpretations of the Bible, and we probably always will. What I'm talking about, and what should be obvious from the several examples I provided you, are the actual, documented untruths promoted repeatedly by Bennett, you, and the entire anti-gay right wing machine.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not prove that Hollywood "celebrates" adultery by presenting a tragic story which involves adultery.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not back up Stephen Bennett's absurd claim that being too short can make you gay or that 75% of gay men and 90% of lesbians were molested.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not excuse Stephen Bennett's false stereotyping of all homosexuals as miserable sex addicts.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not make Ake Green less of a hypocrite for making a martyr of himself for being prosecuted for his speech and then demanding prosecution for the speech of others.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not excuse repeating untruths about the effects of hate-crimes laws.

Your interpretation of the Bible does not back up your claim that Hollywood would never honor a Christian film when part 3 of the Christian-themed Lord of the Rings tied for most Oscars ever won by a single film.

And it's not just you and Bennett.

When the Traditional Values Coalition claims on their website that "The homosexual activist movement and organized pedophiles are linked together by a common goal: To gain access to children for seduction into homosexuality," they are lying, and whatever Biblical interpretations they have do not excuse this.

When NARTH mischaracterizes a 26 year old survey with serious methodological problems as being proof of how bestiality, pedophilia, substance abuse, and promiscuity "are significant problems in the gay subculture, with numbers and percentages alarmingly higher than the mainstream" when their educations should easily allow them to see this claim is flawed:

http://www.narth.com/docs/reporton.html

then they are lying:

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,005.htm

When PFOX claimed they were shut out of the PTA's meeting on bullying in favor of PFLAG because of bias when the real reason was because PFOX did not actually have any anti-bullying material to present, they were lying.

When the American Family Association continues to promote the video "It's Not Gay" which claims that Michael Johnston has "overcome" his homosexuality even though they know that subsequent to the video Michael Johnston has engaged in numerous unprotected sexual encounters with other men without disclosing his HIV status and with nothing whatsoever to back up the phony claims the video makes about all gay people as promiscuous and diseased, they are intentionally deceiving people (another term for lying.)

If religious right organization care so much about the truth, then they need to stop lying, and you need to stop supporting their lies. (And yes, when a gay person knowingly passes along a false statistic about gay people, they are also lying, but that does not excuse the above)

Joe Brummer said...

Boo,
Excellently said. Ghandi told us to bring the truth to our adversary in a non-violent way but relentlessly. Beautiful the trith is and I hope Christine will ponder the damage these lies do to others.

Juan Buhler said...

Christine,


Unclean shellfish may cause health problems, and, if a person is sickened enough, even physical death. But unrepented sexual immorality causes not only health problems (as we see with the rampant STD's), and often leads to physical death, but also spiritual problems that leads to spiritual death and separation from God forever. See the difference?


You would think that God could have been this explicit--we wouldn't need this conversation then.

I appreciate your prayers, because I know you're well intentioned and mean well. But I believe you are wasting your time. Imagine I told you that Zeus, king of the Gods, was the only truth, and that I was praying to Him and to Athena, to enlighten you in a path of knowledge and wisdom. Imagine you knew I really believed and meant that. You probably would be grateful for my good intentions, but you would *know* I'm wasting my time. That describes my feelings regarding Christianity (and all religions, in general.) I see religion as an interesting subject of study, and certain religions as the cause of great grief and suffering, and something that I hope humanity will grow out of eventually.

Since you recommend that radio program to me, I will recommend Bertrand Russell's Why I am not a Christian. It is an easy read and expresses the way I feel quite accurately.

Thanks for letting this atheist comment on your blog, btw.

Boo said...

Juan-

C.S.Lewis' The Great Divorce is a good explanation of why Bertrand Russell's objection to the idea of hell, which as I recall was the main reason for his opposition to Christianity in that article, is not entirely accurate. It isn't so much infinite punishment for finite sins as it is the natural consequence of rejecting the only real source of goodness.

Juan Buhler said...

Boo-

Actually, the existence of hell is not the reason he gives. In fact he rightly says at the beginning of the article that belief in hell is not required to be a Christian.

His reasons are a lot more mundane, and important in my opinion. For example, the suffering caused by some churches' opposition to contraception, how fear is usually the foundation for religion, and the divergence between dogmatic morals and the maximization of human happiness.

DL Foster said...

Hi Christine,
I see you have been elected into Joe Brummer's hate club...or something like that. Our numbers are growing!
Qualifications:
Believe that homosexuality is a sin and dont be afraid to say so.
That joe brummer character is reading from a script. He says the same things at my blog.
He uses those "sanballat" tactics. He constantly talks about good Christian morals and such, but he is really like a mule trying to speak japanese. He talks about middle ground and discussion. Uh, huh. And hitler wanted to talk to the Jews about middle ground too. When you wont agree with him or change your beliefs, he runs back to his little bloggie and writes another evil whodunit. Predictable...and now, boring.

I too took him to task about his harrassment of Stephen Bennett, but his delusional mind wont allow him to see his conduct as trifling and evil.
Christine, stay on the wall. You know what that means.
DL

Joe Brummer said...

Wow, Rev. Foster, You couldn't be more wrong about me, but feel free to say what you want. I don't mind what you say. I know in my heart what I say is truth. Deep in your heart, I know you know I am right.

The science is here, the truth is in the science, something you and Christine have chosen to ignore. That's okay, I will bring the truth to you.

Joe Brummer said...

While, Dl and Christine want to call me names and try to make me look evil, I will follow the Soulforce principals of Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr.:

SEVEN "SOUL FORCE" BELIEFS ABOUT MY ADVERSARY

1. My adversary is also a child of the Creator; we are both members of the same human family; we are sisters and brothers in need of reconciliation.
2. My adversary is not my enemy, but a victim of misinformation as I have been.
3. My only task is to bring my adversary truth in love* (nonviolence) relentlessly.
4. My adversary's motives are as pure as mine and of no relevance to our discussion.
5. My worst adversary has an amazing potential for positive change.
6. My adversary may have an insight into truth that I do not have.
7. My adversary and I will understand each other and come to a new position that will satisfy us both, if we conduct our search for truth guided by the principles of love.

Christinewjc said...

Joe,

Speaking of adversaries, let's see what God's Word has to say about our adversary:

*******

1 Peter 5:5-11

Submit to God, Resist the Devil
5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for


"God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble."*


6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; *because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But *may the God of all grace, who called *us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

*******

Speaking of truth, I see the battle over this particular issue as one that is between the perception of each side's reality and truth. I have asked this before but got no response. Where do we go to find absolute truth?

Only God who knows all things could know the truth. However, postmodernism says there is no absolute truth anywhere. They believe that all truth is always changing, whether it be spiritual, moral, or political. Trouble is, no matter how hard humanists try, they cannot avoid arriving at the problem of claiming there are no moral absolute values.

There is absolute truth in the Word of God (Deut. 32:4). There is absolute morality in the teachings of Scripture and what constitutes sin is defined by God (Matt. 15:16-20). And there is the ultimate absolute behind it all...Jesus Christ, who is the way, the truth and the life (John 3:18-21).

Looking towards man rather than God and His Word make one vulnerable to error. This is why I use Scripture to back up my claims on this blog. No one is perfect. I'm not perfect. Only God himself is perfect and provides us with absolute truth. Jesus Christ is, was, and always will be God's Son. He became man, for our sakes, lived the only perfect, sinless life in history and thus was able to be our Savior.

Who is on the throne in the center of your life Joe? Boo? and Juan?

God or self?

(Juan already answered this but I hope that some day he changes his mind).

Putting yourself on that throne makes one vulnerable to evil and self-deception (John 8:44) by the "thief who comes only to steal and kill and destroy" into your life. Contrastly, Christ, "has come that they may have life and have it to the full," (also, John 8:36).

Christians understand sin, which originates in the heart of man, to be mankind's core problem (Psalm 14:1), something that humanism does not have the capacity to solve. But Jesus has "overcome the world" ( John 16:33).

God takes sin very seriously and provided man's way out from its consequences through the sacrifice of His Son. The cross of Christ shows that God the Father can take the worst thing that ever happened and turn it into good; the salvation of mankind.

Without repentance of sin (John 8:34,35) and belief in Jesus (John 8:42), man dies in his sins (John 8:24) and is without hope.

That's the truth (John 11:25,26).

Joe Brummer said...

The truth never changes, Christine. It is our interpretations of the truth that change to fit our fears and desires. We strive in out lives to manipulate the truth to make it say what we want rather than what it says.

The truth for me comes from my own sources, they may be from god, they may not, but that isnt for you to judge and since I sense you are only asking the question so you can attack my answer, that is why you haven't receieved one.

Christinewjc said...

Hi DL Foster,

Thanks for your input. It is always refreshing to have a learned Christian believer come over and post at my blog!

I am constantly amazed (but perhaps shouldn't be) that many homosexual activists and their supporters display no tolerance or respect towards ex-gay Christians and their ministries.

How sad it is to see such false and deceptive arguments (cleverly disguised as altruism) spewing from the Joe Brummers of the world. From what you have shared here, it appears that you have been dealing with Joe and his type for some time. You see right through his facade.

People who once fought for tolerance for themselves are now the oppressors against those who have successfully escaped the deception and sin of homosexual behavior through faith and trust in Jesus Christ. These activists desire to wage a war against ex-gay Christians...all in the misplaced and misguided effort to convince others that they don't exist! They are front and center in the campaigns to silence, mercilessly scorn, reject, abhor, and threatened with death, an entire group of people. Any ex-gay person who speaks out to the public about their journey out of the bondage of homosexual behavior and offers a way out for those who are also unhappy with it are subject to constant ridicule and debasement. We know where that is coming from.

So much for tolerance by the gay community activists and their supporters. It appears to be only a one way street.

Joe Brummer said...

Christine wties to DL:
How sad it is to see such false and deceptive arguments (cleverly disguised as altruism) spewing from the Joe Brummers of the world. From what you have shared here, it appears that you have been dealing with Joe and his type for some time. You see right through his facade.


Joe Replies:

No facade, Christine, only the truth. Stephen and Dl and yourself rely on false facts, flawed research and lies to make gays and lesbians look like the anti-christ. We all know that is UNTRUTH. I will bring the real truth to the surface. You can call me whatever names you want, the truth has and will set me free.

I am always here for you to talk with if you want to talk, my email is easily findable. We could talk and we all could learn.

Boo said...

This is amazing, it's pretty much an exact replica of an argument taking place over at exgaywatch. This guy named Bernie was called on promoting a bunch of fake statistics on gay people, and when confronted with his lies, he immediately changed the subject.

Christine-

"Speaking of truth, I see the battle over this particular issue as one that is between the perception of each side's reality and truth. I have asked this before but got no response. Where do we go to find absolute truth?"

Well, obviously I don't go to Straight Talk Radio, the Traditional Values Coalition, the American Family Association, PFOX, NARTH, Exodus, your blog, DL Foster's Blog, the Family Research Institute, David Kupelian, Ake Green, Janice Crouse or any of that ilk to find the truth, because you do not find the truth in lies.

"However, postmodernism says there is no absolute truth anywhere. They believe that all truth is always changing, whether it be spiritual, moral, or political. Trouble is, no matter how hard humanists try, they cannot avoid arriving at the problem of claiming there are no moral absolute values."

Hence why I emphatically reject the post-modernist view of truth you and the above groups are de facto espousing. Does God want us to serve Him by repeating claims which are not true, Christine?

"Looking towards man rather than God and His Word make one vulnerable to error. This is why I use Scripture to back up my claims on this blog."

Unfortunately, Scripture has nothing to say on whether or not Borkeback Mountain "celebrates" the tragedy it chronicles, whether or not being too short can make you gay, whether or not 75% of gay men and 90% of lesbians were molested, whether or not gay men all want to molest children, whether or not increasing the penalties for crimes against vulnerable groups will somehow lead to the supression of free speech, or any of the other lies anti-gay advocates constantly repeat. But that is why God gave us intelligence and reason.

"Who is on the throne in the center of your life Joe? Boo? and Juan?"

I hope Juan and I are not on the center of the throne in Joe's life (no offense, Joe). God is at the center of my life, and the God to whom I say "Thy will be done" says to me "Thou shalt not bear false witness."

"So much for tolerance by the gay community activists and their supporters. It appears to be only a one way street."

I must confess to being intolerant of lies, Christine. This is important because if one side refuses to acknowledge any obligation to truth, then there is no point in discussing anything.

Pointing out the deceptions of the anti-gay/ex-gay movement is neither intolerance nor oppression. In my experience even most people working to expose the lies of the ex-gay movement have no interest in silencing or ridiculing its members (Wayne Besen being a notable exception).

Check out the comments section of this post if you want to see more wit and wisdom from a "learned Christian believer."

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2006/01/exgay_dl_foster_1.html

Juan- I haven't read Russell's essay since college, but from what I remember he said the most important reason he didn't think Jesus was either the Son of God or at least "the best and wisest of men" was because He believed in hell, and a truly wise person can't believe in eternal punishment.

Christinewjc said...

Boo,

It obviously has more to do with your particular ideology than with the truth. Even if people make occasional mistakes, the truth of Scripture (see Stephen's 4 part broadcast on the book of Romans) backs up most of what he has been saying in his ministry. It is very difficult to argue with Scripture.

Either homosexual behavior is sin or it is not. The Bible says it is sin (just like any other listed there) and I believe the Bible. God is God and you are not. You can have your ideological opinions, Boo, but you can't change God's character, commandments, call for men to repent, His Holiness and Righteousness as is revealed in His Word. I have shared numerous Scriptures with you that back up the views of many of the people you have falsely listed as spreading lies.

Look in the mirror Boo.

How do I lovingly tell you your need to face the deception that you are currently under?

You need to repent.

Then go to God's Word. With the help of the Holy Spirit's leading, I pray that your eyes and ears will be opened and that you will discover the truth that is there.

It is the only way that you will be set free from your current deception on this issue.

Joe Brummer said...

Yoy are correct Christine, you cannot change the scripture, which means it is sin to bear false witness and using flawed science, misrepresented facts and deception by omission means that Stephen, DL Foster, and you are all guitly of bearing false witness.

Boo said...

Christine-

"It obviously has more to do with your particular ideology than with the truth."

Facts are no one's ideology. May I ask you one question and get a straightforward answer:

Does believing that the Bible condemns homosexuality free you and anyone else who espouses that view from any obligation to be factually correct in the claims you and others make about homosexuals?

If you believe that you have no obligation to be factually correct, then there is no point in discussing the Bible with you anyway, because nothing you say can be trusted. (I notice that in the picture at the top of your blog you appear to have short hair in clear violation of 1 Corinthians 11:15, and you are not wearing a veil in violation of 1 Corinthians 11:5-6. In fact, this entire blog is a violation of 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

"I have shared numerous Scriptures with you that back up the views of many of the people you have falsely listed as spreading lies."

I have not falsely listed them as spreading lies. Their lies are quite well documented. Your refusal to face that fact tells me that you indeed espouse the view that honesty and integrity have no place in the world.

This isn't just occasional mistakes. This is an ongoing and quite deliberate campaign of lies and deception. If the huge amount of untrue assertions were merely mistakes made by people who have concern for being truthful, then they would repudiate them instead of repeating them.

Joe Brummer said...

Boo,
Christine does not have any interst in my humble assessment, of looking at the misrepresented facts, because she believes them. She has given up her sense of critical thinking so she can hold to her own truth and ignore what is a known fact.

Stephen, DL, and others like them, want to paint gays and lesbians how they want to paint them regardless of the fact mainstream science has proved them wrong.

If their objections to homosexuality were just biblical, I wouldn't be typing this message write now, I would be upstairs cuddled with my partner of 7 years. Instead I am here, trying to show the truth to people like Christine, that gays and lesbians are not after your children, not all on drugs, not sleeping with everything that moves, not prone to strange diseases that don't really exist. When Christine is willing to admit this, she will get her real wish....I will go away.

mamalicious said...

The conversation never seems to change and this disappoints me. Somehow, Christine, I've believed that you are a rational person with at least some willingness to continue talking about tough issues. But all you seems to do - when prssed - is point fingers, call people names and sarcastically respond to serious questions and comments. You will probably claim that this is just what all the "gay activists" do, too.

I have said this before and I'll say it again. I'm a lesbian. My partner and I have been together - happily - for eight years. We're raising our two children...who seem well-adjusted and happy. We believe in God and our raising our children in a community of people who are loving, kind and very intelligent. We're teaching them that love is the best thing...that kindness is as important. We have never, never, never exposed them to anything inappropriate, nor will we ever. I believe with all of my heart that God smiles on my life. I will never understand why "Christian" folks spew such hatred toward people like me.

I wasn't molested as a child, I never experienced some horrible tragedy that made me a lesbian. My middle fingers aren't some weird size that makes me gay and I didn't get an inordinate amount of attention or neglect from either parent as a kid. I grew up in a morally wonderful family and continue to be close to them. I don't believe that my being a lesbian is at all related to increased viewings of gay people on TV or movies and I know that reading about gay people never made me gay. I will go to my grave believing that God made me this way...and that maybe, just maybe, God hopes that my presence will help others understand that gay people aren't evil. Because we're not.

Christinewjc said...

mamalicious,

My ex-gay friend Susan has stated many times on this blog and at Stephen's that she also once thought that "God made her gay." She believed this for about 20 years! She now knows that it never was true.

I don't really want to get into an arguing match with you again. It just never seems to go anywhere. But I will say this. In the end, it will not matter what you think or what I think. What will matter is what God thinks. His holiness, righteousness, and character do not change. Only man's character does. Man's character ultimately determines to end up in one of two ways. Either he/she chooses to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or not. Refusal to repent and rejection of God's Son has dire consequences. I would think that anyone who says they are a Christian would want to know God's Word thoroughly enough to recognize God's stand on homosexual behavior.

Perhaps you might like to consider reading an article that I recently came across. It is called, "What is God's Response to the Gay Agenda?" Although the article is geared more towards that question within the business world, you might want to take note of the author's explanation as to why God would not approve of such an agenda or way of life:

" With all due respect to the APA, Corporate America, the judiciary, and politicians, the real question is not what each of these groups thinks, but what God thinks, specifically the God of the Bible. If the God of the Bible created the universe, He created the rules that govern the universe. This means that He defines reality and surely has a perspective on the gay agenda. So, what is God’s perspective as revealed both in nature, which He created, and in the Bible, which He inspired? Beginning with general revelation, God’s revelation in nature, note that the homosexual lifestyle is single generational. A homosexual couple cannot naturally reproduce. This means that if everyone were homosexual, the human race would be extinct in a few decades. This logic may seem a bit extreme, but the reality is undeniable. Gay men have no way to reproduce. Lesbians can only reproduce by artificial insemination. Therefore, nature reveals that a gay lifestyle is cursed with extinction. Hence, anyone adopting a gay lifestyle shows no regard for future generations. The gay lifestyle is inherently self-centered and is inconsistent with God, who created the reproduction capability of species, including the human race. Turning to the Bible, God’s special revelation, the Apostle Paul described homosexuality as unnatural and an indication of the judgment of God on people who have rejected God’s revelation of Himself in nature (see Romans 1). This truth is a bitter pill for the gay agenda. Some gay advocates argue that the Bible is ambivalent on homosexuality, but I have yet to see a credible exegesis of Romans 1 that supports a position of ambivalence. In fact, Paul reinforced his position stating that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9). Both natural and special revelation compel me to believe that God will not bless homosexuality. He values human reproduction, which is one of the primary reasons He created man (see Genesis 1:26–28). He does not bless self-centered living, nor does He bless those who reject His revelation. Hence, it seems clear and logical to assume that He will not bless homosexuals."

I agree with the author's conclusion:

The only relevant answer to the question of the gay agenda is God’s. In the end, no other opinions matter.

Christinewjc said...

Link to article:

What Is God's Response to the Gay Agenda?

Boo said...

Christine-

"Beginning with general revelation, God’s revelation in nature, note that the homosexual lifestyle is single generational. A homosexual couple cannot naturally reproduce. This means that if everyone were homosexual, the human race would be extinct in a few decades. This logic may seem a bit extreme, but the reality is undeniable. Gay men have no way to reproduce. Lesbians can only reproduce by artificial insemination. Therefore, nature reveals that a gay lifestyle is cursed with extinction. Hence, anyone adopting a gay lifestyle shows no regard for future generations. The gay lifestyle is inherently self-centered and is inconsistent with God, who created the reproduction capability of species, including the human race."

If everyone was a woman, the human race would die out too. Being a woman therefore is inherently self-centered and is inconsistent with God.

Now if you could come out of the clouds for a second, no one's saying everyone should be gay. Most people are straight, most people have always been straight, most people will always be straight, and that's a good thing.

Apparently Jesus didn't get God's message about how everyone has to reproduce, what with the whole Mathew 19:12, and neither did Paul 1 Corinthians 7:7, 32-34. How inherently self-centered and inconsistent with God those two must have been.

I would still like to know if you think it's okay to repeat untruths in order to oppose "the gay agenda."

mamalicious said...

Christine;

I have always appreciated Susan's stance, too. She has said, over and over, that we should treat each other lovingly...and I agree. Sometimes your posts are...mean-spirited and hostile. That's the part that I have such a hard time with. I can respect and accept that you have a different opinion than mine. It's hard for me, though, when you - in the name of loving God - call people names and make generalities about people you know nothing about. I'm quite sure, in fact, that if you were to meet me, you would like me. I hope that you wouldn't ostracize me or my children because I'm gay. I'm not asking for everyone in the world to BE gay. I'm asking that we accept each other for our differences. And I know, I know, my eternal life is at stake if you happen to treat me with acceptance...you're asking me to change in the name of my personal salvation. I know the argument, I know how you will try to explain your behavior. All I'm asking is that you let ME worry about my own personal salvation...in the meantime, start treating people nicely, even if they're different.

I don't want to get into an argument either - because you're right...it never gets anywhere. I'm just asking that you see the real folks behind those you call "gay activists." We're real people...with real feelings and real children who live in the world with your children. It's a scary enough place out there.

Christinewjc said...

mamalicious,

You said: "Sometimes your posts are...mean-spirited and hostile. That's the part that I have such a hard time with."

Shall we exchange mean-spirited and hostile stories? Well, before I share some, I will once again state that I continually try to differenciate between people who are regarded as gay activists and those who are just ordinary gay people living as they choose. I thought that at least you and I were clear on that, but I guess not. The meanspiritedness and hostility is aimed at what many activists are involved in and how it is hurting our children and grandchildren. There are many examples that I could give, but here are just a few examples that I found through excerpts from Janet Folger's book.

Well, I found that I was not able to copy to the clipboard so here is the link and you can read pages 14-27 which deal with the actions of the homosexual activist agenda.

Mamalicious: "And I know, I know, my eternal life is at stake if you happen to treat me with acceptance...you're asking me to change in the name of my personal salvation. I know the argument, I know how you will try to explain your behavior. All I'm asking is that you let ME worry about my own personal salvation..."

I'm glad that you get this about me. Unlike Joe, Juan, and Boo, you have the unique opinion in regards to the salvation question. We have been through this argument before and yet again, we cannot agree. However, I am pleased to see that at least in this respect you do not see me as "meanspirited" and "hostile."

Jesus himself was rejected because he told people that they needed to repent. Those who don't repent don't like to hear those words. We are also told in Scripture that the cross is offensive to those who are perishing, but to those who are saved it is life.

I can only assume that since you know what is required to have salvation in Jesus Christ, that you personally believe that lesbianism is not sin and continuing in a lesbian relationship is O.K. with God. No one, especially me, would probably ever be able to convince you otherwise. Only God could do that. He may use other Christians to do so, but then again he may not. It might come in the form of conviction within your own soul. However, if you continue to believe as you do and you think that I am wrong about this then we have yet again reached the point where we will have to agree to disagree. It goes way back to one of my original questions that I had presented to you months ago.

"I truly wonder how such a bitter conflict between the liberal church ideologies and the bible-based born-again evangelical church views regarding homosexual behavior can ever be solved?"

You told me that it "hurts your brain" to even think about it. You then made an analogy that said, "It's like asking if the Christians and Muslims might ever agree on issues of faith and belief?"

I would have to say that this is different. Of course Christians and Muslims would never agree on issues of faith and belief. They are different religions altogether. But you and I profess the same faith; Christian faith. Such issues are important in recognizing truth from error.

Mamalicious: "All I'm asking is that you let ME worry about my own personal salvation...in the meantime, start treating people nicely, even if they're different."

Yes. I should let you worry about your own personal salvation. It is, after all, between you and God. However, what if you are incorrect about the whole gay theology movement currently going on? There are multitudes of warning about error, heresy and apostasy in the books of Colossians, Jude, Revelation as well as several others:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.


2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Mark 13:22-23 warns of false Christs and false prophets. We are to be on our guard at all times. How? Knowing Jesus Christ, listening to the lead of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, and thorough knowledge of God's Word.

Hebrews 5:12-14 (NKJV)

Spiritual Immaturity
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Here are the same verses in the easier to understand, plain spoken NLT version:

A Call to Spiritual Growth
11 There is so much more we would like to say about this. But you don't seem to listen, so it's hard to make you understand. 12 You have been Christians a long time now, and you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things a beginner must learn about the Scriptures.* You are like babies who drink only milk and cannot eat solid food. 13 And a person who is living on milk isn't very far along in the Christian life and doesn't know much about doing what is right. 14 Solid food is for those who are mature, who have trained themselves to recognize the difference between right and wrong and then do what is right.

Do you have this Mamalicious? If not, then how can you be sure that you are not engaged in grave error?

Please know that I am not saying these things and quoting from the Bible to upset, ridicule, condemn or question your sincerity of love for Jesus Christ. I do this out of love for you...that agape love that Christ gave to us and the apostles taught us in Scripture.

As to the second part of the comment I quoted from you, I do try to treat people as nicely as possible without compromising the gospel message.

Hebrews 5:14 - But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

God doesn't want ANYONE to perish. However, since we are only made righteous by confession of sin, repentance (turning away from it), through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, I take these verses very seriously:

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

mamalicious said...

Christine,

You said, "Shall we exchange mean-spirited and hostile stories?"

No. I don't want to do that. I don't think (I sincerely hope) that I have never been mean-spirited in my comments to you. I might post out of anger or hurt from your comments, but I don't think I've ever been mean. And I don't think it serves ANY purpose to give examples of how others have been mean.

As for the question about us coming together in our theology, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere with that. I can tell you that I sincerely believe that God loves me. I believe, in fact, that God made me the way I am. I really do. You mention Susan's comments about believing that God "made her that way" for twenty years and then was "shown the way." I will tell you that I grew up in the conservative church. I studied diligently biblical theology and I was very serious in my belief that gay people were going to hell. I believed this for so long and so fiercely that it nearly cost me my life. There were days when I felt so guilty and felt such shame that I seriously considering ending my life...this because of God's hatred of who I am. I continued to search and search until I realized and am certain that God made me who I am.

I really do believe that we shouldn't judge others...we should leave those alone who are certain in their belief system and in their own well-being. Isn't that the best way we can respect each other?

Christinewjc said...

Mamalicious: "I can tell you that I sincerely believe that God loves me."

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that!

He loves US, but not the sin we do. If He did, then He would not have crucified His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, for the remission of our sin.

Mamalicious: "I believe, in fact, that God made me the way I am. I really do."

I'd have to disagree with you wholeheartedly on that!

I do believe that God won't force us to love Him back, but allows each of us to "go our own way" if we choose to continue in sin. There is always the hope that we will turn back to Him.

It's not that "gay people are going to hell." Unrepentant sinners of any kind will end up there. The Scriptures are clear on that. Jesus came to save the sinner (of which I am). To think that God "made me a sinner" would be wrong. He allowed me to choose to sin. He knocked on the door of my heart to repent and I did. He now indwells my heart in the Person of the Holy Spirit and has changed me and brought me from death to life.

I am sorry that you had such terrible feelings of suicide at your former church. Again, God doesn't hate you for being "who you are" (or, more specifically, who you perceive that you are), He hates the sin we commit, but not the sinner.

Mamalicious: "I continued to search and search until I realized and am certain that God made me who I am."

Being certain within human reasoning is not the same as being certain through God's wisdom and knowledge. A person can want to be made to believe that 2 + 2 = 5 just because they really, really want it to be so. Trouble is, absolute truth exists that tells us that it is the wrong answer because 2 + 2 = 4.

I see the gay theology movement as deception. If it is not, then why are some denominations re-writing the Bible without the verses that condemn homosexual behavior? Why the need to do that if they are so certain that such behavior is not sinful? Just think what would happen if someone tried to take the condemnations for murder, rape, theft, adultery, lying out of their own version of the Bible. Would you approve of that?

Mamalicious: "I really do believe that we shouldn't judge others..."

Only God can ultimately judge others. But shouldn't Christians sound the alarm bells when they see unrepentant sinners still under condemnation for their sins? Isn't that what the Gospel is all about?

Trouble is, there are denominations that no longer preach the true Gospel. They don't share the verses that show condemnation for those who do not repent.

1 John 4:10 - In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

As you probably know, the term "propitiation" means sacrifice, payment.

We are only justified because of Christ's death on the cross. God declares a guilty sinner "not guiltry."

James 4:17 - Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 - Much more then having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Jesus paid much to high a price to free us from the punishment for our sins.

Titus 2:14 - Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

When a person becomes a Christian, God makes them a brand-new person inside! He give that person the power to say "no" to sin. And He always makes a "way out" when you are tempted to sin against Him.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

(Note: above verses NIV)

Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in adultery, but he didn't condone her sin either. He told her to, "go and leave her life of sin."

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 (NKJV) 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Mamalicious: "we should leave those alone who are certain in their belief system and in their own well-being. Isn't that the best way we can respect each other?"

Evangelism does not tell us to do that. It tells us to share the truth of Gospel with others.

To do the opposite may appear to be "respect" in your eyes, but according to all that I have read and studied in the Bible, I doubt that it is so in God's eyes. He is not a "respecter of persons."

2Ch 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

Pro 24:23 These [things] also [belong] to the wise. [It is] not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Pro 28:21 To have respect of persons [is] not good: for a piece of bread [that] man will transgress.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, [the Lord] of glory, with respect of persons.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:


2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,

(Note: previous verses KJV)

The good news is that God is patient:

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Boo said...

Christine-

"I'm glad that you get this about me. Unlike Joe, Juan, and Boo, you have the unique opinion in regards to the salvation question. We have been through this argument before and yet again, we cannot agree. However, I am pleased to see that at least in this respect you do not see me as "meanspirited" and "hostile.""

I'm not sure what you mean by me not having "the unique opinion in regards to the salvation question." If you mean whether or not I am sanctified by the Blood of my Savior Jesus Christ, well then, yes, I am.

I don't mind the mean-spiritedness so much because it's the internet and it's very easy to get mad at someone over the internet, I think it's kind of the same phenomenon that causes road rage.

There are three problems I have with the ex-gay/anti-gay movement: the constant repeating of untrue claims, the use of the government to enforce their religious beliefs, and forcing children into ex-gay programs.

And unfortunately, once again the link you provided makes many untrue claims. Concerned Woman Bob Knight's claim that "the homosexual movement" seeks to criminalize Christianity is untrue.

I'm not sure how the author draws a line from an HRC director not wanting to be called an abomination to that claim.

The problem with the Boy Scouts is that they're trying to have it both ways. They want to be a private association when it comes to being discriminatory in their membership and yet accept public support at the same time.

The university examples she cites are less about "the homosexual movement" than universities getting out of hand with wanting to create a tolerant atmosphere to the point where they get intolerant and violate freedom of association. I doubt the university administrations that make these kinds of decisions (most of which have nothing to do with homosexuality) are all composed of gay people.

The examples from Canada, Sweden, and Britain are, as already pointed out, more about a general lack of free speech protections in those societies. You can get in the same kind of trouble for making ethnic slurs in those countries, but I notice people hardly ever complain about that.

The Hewlett Packard case illustrates Ms. Folger's hypocrisy fairly well. She wants the Boy Scouts, who claim to be a private organization and yet accept government support, to be free to enforce their views on homosexuality on their members, yet she objects to Hewlett Packard, a private company that does not take government funding, being allowed to enforce its own policies on its employees. Your right to pronounce your religious views ends when it interferes with my right to a harrassment-free workplace.

The San Diego case is no different than doctors refusing to help black women with fertility treatments because their religion says God wants us to get rid of black people. Their business is a public accomodation. If an athiest doctor put a sign up saying "No Christians will be served" how do you honestly think Ms. Folger would view that?

Same principle for the Scott Brockie case.

She doesn't give any details about the "re-education class" for foster parents, so I'm assuming it was teaching prospective foster parents how to be respectful of gay kids they might end up fostering- nothing wrong there.

No details about the public school antidiscrimination policy, so I'll assume they mean sending students to the school counselor for harrassing their gay peers- nothing wrong there.

California's anti-discrimination law now protects gender identity- nothing wrong there.

The Colorado case involved a custody dispute. It's standard procedure in divorce cases for the judge to order each parent not to say anything bad to the child about the other parent- nothing wrong there.

The case involving the Pennsylvania "Hate-Speech" law is dated 2004 (the law was actually enacted over a decade ago) and what it doesn't say is that the charges were dropped. The response of people who claimed that the law was written too vaguely and violated their freedom of speech was NOT to clarify the law itself, but to try and remove sexual orientation from its protections (so apparently they have no problem with prosecuting harrassing communication directed at anyone except homosexuals):

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=4405

Did you notice how Ms. Folger pulls a bait-and-switch on pps 27-28? She claims that hate crimes laws in the US will lead to supression of free speech, and then as evidence she cites a case that took place in Canada.

The California pro-life case- as a pro-lifer I'm nervous about the effects of this one, but the fact is free speech rights have never been held to extend to threatening or harrassing someone. She even states that the law applies to "anti-reproductive-rights crimes" and then lists a bunch of activities she alleges might be prosecuted even though they're not crimes and so would be outside the scope of the law as a scare tactic.

So all one can really conclude from this article is: Canada and Europe need better free-speech laws, Ms. Folger has a poor sense of geography, laws that are applied in an unconstitutional manner generally lead to the case being dismissed, and bait-and-switch is yet another dishonest tactic employed by some in the anti-gay movement.

mamalicious said...

Christine,

We don't agree on the fact that God made me this way. We will never agree on that. Can we respectfully talk about this issue with that in mind?

Let me ask you this: do you KNOW any happy gay folks? Are any gay people your friends? Would you invite me into your home? Would you treat my partner and my children with kindness? Because honestly, based on the tone of your posts, I might hesitate should you invite us to dinner...I'm not entirely sure you would be nice. I WANT to believe that you would be nice, but based on your views of people like me, I can't be sure. And I would never put my family in a place where people won't be kind. What do you think?

Please know that I ask this respectfully - it's important, though, in order for me to feel like we could continue this conversation at all. The Internet lends a sense of forthrightness that we don't always use when we meet face to face. Would you be so bold in your arguments if we were talking? What am I missing?

Joe Brummer said...

Mama,
I have to say I really respect you and your appraoch to Christine. We could all learn from you. I hope as days go by I become more like you!

Hugs!
Joe

Christinewjc said...

Update on 10/4/07

Since the link in one of the comments above has changed,

[Well, I found that I was not able to copy to the clipboard so here is the link and you can read pages 14-27 which deal with the actions of the homosexual activist agenda.]

I have included these additional links that can be referenced:

Apologetics.com
gay christian movement watch
Chester Street
4 Simpsons - Eternity Matters
Independent Conservative
Christian Online Magazine
Focus on the Family
Stephen Bennett Ministries
Al Mohler's Blog
Active Christian Media,
Abiding Truth Ministries,
Americans for Truth,
Concerned Women for America
Robert A.J. Gagnon

Added blogs and websites:

Desert Stream Ministries
Alliance Defense Fund