You can go to that link, read through the posts and comments in order to "catch up" on the conversation here.
I will begin with my comment which was reacting to David's post about intersexed people:
Look. I am not a medical doctor. I have heard of intersex people. I may not understand the entire plight that they are under, but I do think that you are mixing "apples and oranges" as the saying goes.
The Bible identifies people who are eunuchs. Whether it is by choice, medical procedure or by a "freak of nature" that they are the way they are, the fact is that we all live in a fallen world. Sin has permeated everything and everyone; whether it is a sexual problem, or any other sin problem. Scripture tells us that even the "whole creation groans for redemption." That just about covers everything...don't you think?
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
If you read the entire chapter of Romans 8 (NKJV), you will see (and hopefully realize) that as born again believers in Christ, we are to "mortify the deeds of the body" and not "live after the flesh."
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
What you have presented is scientific reasoning as to why some people have, unfortunately, been born intersexed.
Homosexual behavior has nothing to do with that anomaly.
But I do see where you are trying to go with this. You want to make a case for homosexuals "being born that way." Sorry. There is no scientific evidence of that.
I'm not here to debate the sexual anomalies that you have brought up and then stand by and watch you try to equate such findings as an excuse to continue in homosexual behavior while claiming to be a Christian. That will, ultimately, be a subject between you and God.
What I do know is that God's Word forbids homosexual sex between two men or two women. Period. End of story. People can twist, rearrange, argue, debate, eliminate certain verses, skew the meaning of certain verses all in an effort to make Scripture say what they desire it to say to satisfy their own fleshly desires (and, therefore, their own consciences).
However, to me it would be like trying to convince someone that murder is not sin, either. God's Word has the last say on the matter.
The question remains as to whether or not you (or any other gcm advocate) will humble themselves and admit they are wrong about gay sexual behavior or not. It is a choice that you will have to make and come to terms with during your earthly existence.
Just like a heterosexual person who claims to be a Christian yet continues to think he/she is not sinning when cheating through adulterous liasions with others; they will have to one day answer to Christ for their actions. I can't speak to that situation. It is one that is between God and each, separate, individual.
However, I can speak to the heretical lies that the gcm is spreading through a false gospel as they try to mold Jesus Christ, and belief in Him into their "own image" It is not only a form of adultery, but even worse, a form of idolatry.
Saying, believing and preaching that gay sex is O.K. with God and need not be repented of for entrance into the kingdom of heaven is a lie from Satan himself, David. I pray that you will one day be released from this deceptive stronghold in your life.
Meanwhile, if I were you I would be careful sharing heretical ideology with others and thus leading them away from reconcilation with God. That has eternal consequences attached to it and I sincerely hope that you wouldn't want those people who were led astray (by your heretical ideas) to miss heaven because of it.
*******
Next, here is newcomer Daniel's comment:
My name is Daniel. After reading many of the posts here I find myself wanting to respond with many ideas. So many I am not entirely sure I can sort them out to make this clear. This is my attempt (sorry if this is rather long).*******
As a person who is dealing with my sexual orientation I have spent a lot of time thinking these issues over. I want to be as objective as possible. I love Jesus, the bible, and also people. Let me say as a sinner and a Christian my heart is heavy for men and women sorting through their sexuality. It is physically taxing, emotionally draining, and spiritually significant!
It seems to me when this issue has been addressed in history prior to the late 19th century the first explanation for rejection was natural law. In other words because of the empirical nuisances of same sex relationships it could not be morally right. However, as this unfolded we began to see that there are many anomalies in nature. So often we find in nature events that break the rules. The same was true when we began to study sexuality. While it is true there is not a “gay” gene, it is true that there are diff. chemical relationships between many individuals that live active homosexual life styles and those that do not. Because of socio-biological experiments we can not count on nature to wholly answer this question. Either side can use research to justify their opinion; therefore empirical data can only aide us in a resolution.
If this is true then I believe we could agree that our senses and biology can not be trusted to conclusively answer this question. Jesus demonstrates this by breaking the laws of nature, most significantly the laws of death!!!
I find that when you look at both sides of the coin there continually is a matter of biblical interpretation. Since interpretation is essentially observations made from reading scripture and applying an opinion based on those observations…interpretation is essentially a matter of logic. If this is the case then understanding God would be based largely on ones intellectual capability. I am sure no one would say that those who are academic are closer to God then those who are less astute. We would agree that it is a matter of grace, not works…praise God!!! This is not to say that academic endeavors are vain…certainly not. They are a valuable aid in understanding good news, but they are not the heart of God.
I often get distressed when I read different thoughts and opinions from those before me. In all queries into the heart of God from the origin of life to the present you find new perspectives emerge. The theology of the modern day conservative while rooted in predecessors much more intelligent than any of us is quite different depending on the time it was written. So an evangelical today is practicing daily living activities that would be wildly gross to an evangelical that lived one hundred years ago. The same is true for the more liberal side. Therefore on one side Leviticus law is used as a reason for homosexuality as sin, and the other side as a reason for it being not explicitly sin. This observation leads me to conclude that the answer to this question can not be based solely on interpretation.
If this is true then I believe we would all agree that interpretation of our own and those before us only aides in an internal relationship established with God. It does not establish it! Jesus being the greatest mind of all time demonstrates this in his rebuke of the academic establishments. Equating knowledge of him to be more easily understood by ignorant children then masters of theology, ethics, and mores.
I find this to be ever so humbling when it comes to taking strong stances in my views of sexuality and spirituality. I have been conditioned to trust first what I see, hear, taste, ect, secondly, to trust my interpretation of it. My mind I have so often trusted even though my experience shows my logic to fall apart, my opinions to be ever so effected by my mood, and my imagination to be manipulated by circumstance.
Jesus help me!!! Who/what shall I trust???
I believe it is to trust in Jesus, but when I am so easily swayed by my mind, circumstance, and senses…what does that mean? I have often contemplated the “sermon on the mount” and marveled at the realization that Christ calls me to him. And this call was not physically witnessed by me, nor did I come to it by reason. It was an inward look!?!
As I have attempted to walk with my savoir into the chaos of my untamed spirit I find that empirical reality and logic do very little. They have helped materialize my sorting spirit through word and action. However, my thoughts and actions are only caused by the first effect in my heart.
What I have discovered in the sorted chaos of my spirit as it pertains to sexuality is this. I have a desperate desire for intimacy with men! And that is ok!! All men desperately desire intimate relationships with each other!!! I see this all the time when men get together. Whether it is at a local sport pub, gay bar, or prayer meeting, men love being around other men…almost. We all know men that are intimidated by other men. In the video that was discussed on the other blog there was a common theme amongst the young boys. When Pastor Jay was with the boys they confessed that being around other men made them nervous, they had been rejected by their male peers, and almost all of them made friends much more easily with girls.
When I was in college I desperately wanted to know if I was a man. I remember thinking what does it mean to be a man? And how to I get from a boy to a man? Having shared many experiences of rejection from males at an early age…I thought if I was a man other men would want to be around me. I knew they didn’t! And yet I was willing to do anything to get other men to want to be around me. I realized at some point we were all doing this…some of us through sports, others through girls and sex, and others through men and sex. It was so easy to walk into a gay bar look at the first man I saw and immediately get him to want to be around me…all it takes is a little sex. I later realized that this was not satisfying intimacy …and remember I know I want intimacy.
I decided I would try a relationship with a wonderful male. As I grew to love and respect him as a male our sex life began to grow increasingly frustrating. I found that I was having physical and mental problems trying to view him as a sexually intimate partner. You see my love for him caused me to want to aide in his masculinity not take from it.
As I began to study the ideas that surrounded Paul’s concepts of marriage, likening it to Christ and the church, I became increasingly aware of the metaphorical use as a picture of the gospel. When Paul walks us through a relationship of a husband he likens it to the head of a body. My head is where I process info, interpret my circumstance, run the rest of my body, and plan my future. I see it as a visionary leader, strong enough to have confidence in decisions, but smart enough to know it will not work without my body/heart. As a man in a relationship with another man I began to try and construct a theory of how this would work between two men.
I know I have loved a man, fought injustices and tackled great fears with a man. But I could not make a body out of two heads. I know that two heads are better than one…as the saying goes…but when was the last time you saw two heads do much good without a pair of hands, legs, and a heart.
I know that we often think of homosexuality in terms of love between two people, but so many men love each other with out sex. I am beginning to believe that homosexuality is sin. By sin I do not mean fire and brimstone, but rather something that causes our spirit to move outward. If we focus outwardly, rather than inwardly, we are sure to miss the presence of God. I have yet to see Jesus face to face.
From what I have observed in my life and others in and out of the gay community, it distracts me from my inward journey with Jesus. If I am just sexual I find I begin to be outwardly driven focusing on my appearance and the appearance of others. If I am sexual and trying to be intimate I find myself stuck in my head and no body to support me, no heart to keep me strong. Fundamentally homosexuality seems to be a manipulation of such a good thing (love between two men) to becoming a distraction from the good news that Jesus conquered death, asks you to go with him into the recesses of your dark and chaotic heart, so that you come out alive and ready to lose yourself in Him.
The biggest obstacle I face in questioning my sexuality is marriage (intimate long term relationships). I truly believe that God made us masculine and feminine, and while there are great varieties of the way that plays out in action, it is ever so entwined into my biology, logic, and heart. I can understand why it can seem so unreal for a gay person and myself to once again question their sexual identity. There is so much grace, goodness, and holiness to be found in relationships with persons of the same sex. But can two bodies make a head, or two heads make a body?
As we wrestle with these issues I pray we are gentle (not on the middle of the fence), to each other. There is more than an opinion when it comes to the heart.
6:37 PM
Next, here is David's last comment:
Hello Christine....*******
Well, I do apologize. I seem to have hit a nerve here. There are lots of things here I could address, but I am only going to address some key things that you said in your last posting. First thing......You said:
"I'm not here to debate the sexual anomalies that you have brought up and then stand by and watch you try to equate such findings as an excuse to continue in homosexual behavior while claiming to be a Christian. That will, ultimately, be a subject between you and God."
I am not "claiming" to be a Christian...I AM a Christian. I have accepted Christ as my personal Saviour. I have accepted His free gift of Salvation. I have asked Him to come into my life and to be honest with you, my walk with Christ has NEVER been stronger than it is today. Quite frankly, I take great offense to you sitting here saying to me that I am "claiming" to be a Christian. You have no idea of my history, what God has brought me through, and where He is taking me. So, I would appreciate if you would refrain from using this terminology with me or any other person you ever talk to. Because I could very easily turn right back around and say that you are "claiming" to be a Christian, and I would certainly never do that.You said:
"Saying, believing and preaching that gay sex is O.K. with God and need not be repented of for entrance into the kingdom of heaven is a lie from Satan himself, David. I pray that you will one day be released from this deceptive stronghold in your life."
Obviously, our definitions of Salvation are two different things. What you just told me here is that if I am gay, I will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is so far from the truth that I just don't know what to say. I was released from ALL my sin when Christ hung on that cross and cried out.."IT IS FINISHED!!" Praise GOD for the gift of His Son. When Christ died, every sin that you or I have ever committed was FORGIVEN!! It was washed away under the blood of the holy Lamb of God And if you read Romans 10:9
"...the word of faith we are proclaiming that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED! For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved!"
Our Salvation has NEVER been dependent on whether or not we sin. After many, many nights of being physically ill and coming to our Father and grappling with the fact that I was gay, He finally gave me peace. He gave me the Peace that passes all understanding. We will certainly differ in our interpretation of Scripture. And if I am wrong, then I, and only I, will answer for that. Just like you will answer for everything that you have done. Sin is sin. There is no difference. There are no varying degrees of sin. One sin is not any worse than any other. There is NOTHING we can do to be cleansed of our sin than to accept HIS free gift. I know I have sinned in my life, and I know there are probably things I have not asked for forgiveness for. However, that is the beauty of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. If we accept him as our Saviour then our sins are washed away!! I am not saying that we should become a Christian and go out and murder a bunch of people. Christ will also hold his children accountable. I firmly believe that if you are a child of God, and you are openly living a sinful life, with no repentance in sight, then I believe that God will take his children home.
And last but not least.....You said:
"Meanwhile, if I were you I would be careful sharing heretical ideology with others and thus leading them away from reconcilation with God. That has eternal consequences attached to it and I sincerely hope that you wouldn't want those people who were led astray (by your heretical ideas) to miss heaven because of it."
The only people who will miss heaven are those who have not accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. PERIOD! The ONLY reconciliation with God is to accept His free gift of Salvation. That is how we reconcile with Christ! My message to people is a very simple message. Christ told us very clearly in Mark to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." That is not my "heretical idea". THAT is the great commandment!!
Well, I have stayed up way past my bedtime now, but as you can see, I am very passionate about the Gospel of Christ.
7:41 PM
My brief reply (to be updated later today):
Hello Daniel,
Welcome to Talkwisdom! Sorry for the delay in replying, it's just that I have been extremely busy the last few days.
Thank you for your heartfelt comment. I can tell that this is a very sensitive subject for you. I want to give your comment my full attention, so I will reply very soon when I have more time.
David,
You are right. This topic always touches the nerves of those who are engaged in it and on opposite sides of the argument. This is probably why a majority of Christians just avoid it altogether.
I want to give your comment my full attention as well. Perhaps I can bring both of your comments up to a new blogpost later today and reply then.
One thing I want to clear up immediately. I am not saying that you are not a Christian, David. The truth is, only God and the individual person knows for sure. However, we ALL can claim to be something...including a Christian, without truly being one. That's just a sad fact in this fallen world.
You could say the same thing back to me, for instance, and I wouldn't be offended. What I would do next is back up my beliefs with the truth from Scripture.
When I make statements like that, I am trying to point out where a person's theology does not match up with what Scripture says. The Bible is the "plumb line" in determining truth from error. If we didn't have the absolute truth of the Bible to rely on, then anyone could skew Christian belief in any direction he/she chooses. When that (unfortunately) happens, heresy and apostasy come creeping in to negatively change true, Biblically-based Christian theology.
You wrote:
The only people who will miss heaven are those who have not accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. PERIOD! The ONLY reconciliation with God is to accept His free gift of Salvation. That is how we reconcile with Christ! My message to people is a very simple message. Christ told us very clearly in Mark to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." That is not my "heretical idea". THAT is the great commandment!!
I do not see any need for the act of repentance in your statement. So I must ask you, what part does confession and repentance of sin play in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ?
7:40 AM
*******
I would invite any and all to join in this conversation. Some may think that it is "trivial" to argue over such things. Are you one of them? Or, do you see this as important because the eternal life and destination of each individual soul is at stake?
Posts
50 comments:
Wow! Christine, this is very important. There is nothing trivial about seeking the truth.
Daniel is well spoken indeed. What he has failed to realize is quite basic and quite common, sadly. A follower of Christ, a true christian, will bear a cross, will suffer, will die to the flesh and live for Him. Daniel was very clear on the internal and external, so this concept is not beyond his understanding with God's help and grace.
His description about longing for intimacy with other men I have heard many times. This 'longing' has blinded him to what in his heart he knows is true, God has never been more clear about homosexuality, God condemns it with no uncertain terns. When people start saying sin is sin, we all are sinners, they are usually putting up the old satan force field to keep them from really examining their true relationship with God. Our love of our sins always hates the light of truth. Yes we are all sinners and we all sin, but a follower of Christ, will repent daily and compare his or her life to the light of scripture and adjust accordingly.
To say Christ is our free ticket so to speak, to heaven simply because I speak His name with my mouth, means nothing to God nor is he reading Paul's writing correctly. It easy to take a scripture and make it mean what you want while disregarding Paul's writings that don't fit that worldly view. Scripture must be taken to heart and will never contradict itself, never.
No matter what sin, and sexual sin is very powerful to those who battle it daily, Christ is stronger! Christ is not interested in making Daniel a 'straight' man, there is a world of sin there as well. Christ will use our weaknesses to conform us to Him. That can only be done when we submit, obey, repent and make Christ lord of all of our life, never just parts. We will never see perfection this side of eternity. That however is never a reason to continue is sin. Any self professed follower of Christ should be asking does Christ accept me doing this and remind themselves of why He died for us. To do otherwise is to mock is work on the cross and remain in a broken relationship with their only savior.
The Bible is the word of God. You cannot replace Christ's call to obedience and repentance with a worldly desire. There is no 'difference' of opinion here regarding scripture like Daniel trys to say. It is not arrogant or hateful to tell Daniel he is wrong. What he calls 'accepting his free gift' is not salvation at all. Christ paid a heavy price! and so will His children! Nothing unbiblical about that. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
"accepting" Christ means living according to His word. That requires a complete change of heart, and it has nothing to do with 'feeling' anything. Our minds are the battle grounds of heaven and hell.
God bless!
Christine, while you and I will often disagree about different things, we are in agreement about something you mentioned here. Accepting Jesus as your Savior is only the first step to salvation. That's where the journey begins. That acceptance alone isn't all it takes to be truly saved and to secure your place in Heaven. While there are some passages that might lead people to believe this, like John 3:16, the vast majority of the teaching contained in the Bible tell a very different story. I will include 4 verses to illustrate my point that I had to look up online, from different sources, 'cause my Bible is upstairs and I wanted to do this quickly.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (NIV, Hebrews 10:26-31)
Cling tightly to your faith in Christ, and always keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked. (NLT, 1 Timothy 1:19)
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (NIV, Galatians 5:19-26)
And finally, Matthew 7:21-23 -21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'
The work begins as we accept Jesus into our hears. We must strive to be more like Him, to do good works, to repent for our sins, to leave what we know is a sin behind and never do it again. Jesus wants us to be with Him, but we must follow his teachings which are clear about the things we must do to earn our place in Heaven. Jesus gives us the tools...it's our responsibility to use them properly.
well said ms jaded! I told you this would be a good year!
but we must follow his teachings which are clear about the things we must do to earn our place in Heaven.
oops, I missed that part jaded. I would only say nothing you or I do earns us anything. His grace is our gift. When we fully realize that and accept that, we do so we may bring Him glory before all men. It is no longer a chore, but a way of life at all costs.
God bless you!
You are correct, Mark. I think I just communicated what I meant in the wrong way. What I meant is that there is a certain way that we are expected to live, according to the will of Jesus, exactly as you said. It is a way of life which includes doing good works, glorifying His name, spreading the Word, repenting for our sins, and all of the things we've spoken about so often here with Christine. We don't earn anything, you're right. We must be willing to accept the gift of grace and salvation by living according to the Word of God. I was just trying to illustrate that simply believing isn't enough. It's a life-long commitment and way of life. I hope that makes sense.
We agree more and more these days, huh Mark?
This is a question I have struggled with answering, Because Jesus said "anyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", but Paul goes on to tell us about what sins will keep someone out of heaven, it can all be very confusing. I don't think I'm in position to say if someone is saved or not, I leave that up to God, for the Bible tells us that God knows the intent of the heart, I can't judge the heart of someone, I'm merely a man. However having said that, I also know the Bible expressly says that certain things are sinful, while are sins are forgiven when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, continuing to live in Sin, really does a dishonor to our Lord. I can't be sure about if someone who practices Homosexuality and yet says they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, will go to heaven, ultimitly I leave that up to God, but I do know what God calls sin, and Homosexuality is sin according to the Bible, so I rather encourage people in what I know, rather in what I do not know, and that basically is, I would not tempt God by living in Sin.
Rob,
Well said brother. The fact you and I fail at times has nothing to do with our salvation. The very fact we know we have sinned is evidence of that. Assurance of our salvation as christians is stronger when we do not sin at will. It has nothing to do with our actual salvation. Remember, God chose us, we accepted His gift. We cannot, ever lose that! ever!
Satan likes to make us think we are not worthy in our flesh. We fail all the time in our flesh. We can't do it without the Holy Spirit living is us. Place your assurance in Christ, His work on the cross, and His never ending love and grace! Obeying God brings us stronger assurance, not salvation. The cure all, obey God's Word in the power of the spirit!
” What I do know is that God's Word forbids homosexual sex between two men or two women. Period. End of story. People can twist, rearrange, argue, debate, eliminate certain verses, skew the meaning of certain verses all in an effort to make Scripture say what they desire it to say to satisfy their own fleshly desires (and, therefore, their own consciences).”
It’s not the end of the story. Even if being with someone of the same gender was a sin, remember, we are “all” sinners. Do you truly think that all of your sins are going to be repented, say if your life expired too early in time for you to say, “I’m sorry God!”
What if your life expired and you forgot to repent for gossiping, lying, hurting someone or even having an impure thought? Those are all sins. We are all sinners, Christine. So, whether or not you believe that homosexuality is a sin – remember what Romans teaches us:
"Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won’t. And those who won’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn God’s servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord’s power will help them do as they should."
And…
“Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, “Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,” when you can’t see past the log from your own eye; then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.” ~Matthew 7:5
Your own actions will have consequences in the afterlife, by the way you’ve treated others, loved others, and lack thereof. The biggest commandment of all is to love God with all your heart and to love others as you would yourself. You’re so focused on trying to “fix” people, the way God made them.
Do you not trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, enough for you to let Him handle matters in His own way? Do you not trust that Jesus’ death was enough for us to be saved?
I trust Him that much.
God bless, Christine! I hope you can see that we’re all human; we’re all in this together.
Thank you all for your excellent comments. Every one of you have said and/or quoted Scripture that stresses the importance of this issue.
Unfortunately, my time at the computer is very limited right now (will explain later). However, this thread will remain up for a few days so it is my hope that the conversation continues.
Deb, are you suggesting that arguing about food choices is the same as arguing about sexual sin? If so, then you are taking that Scripture out of context and attributing something that isn't supposed to be there. What does the Bible say about adding to, or subtracting from Scripture? I hope you will look it up.
Mark, your comments were right on target!
Jaded, so were yours!
So were Roberts and Merwin's. Deb, you had some good things to remember also.
Argghhh! I'm being kicked off the computer already!
ttyl
Christine
Christine, open your eyes---it was a reference. We are all sinners. So sin is greater than another.
What kind of Christian are you?
I'm offended that you have even implied that I took away from scripture.
You've said it because I'm "gay"----and that, you hate.
I feel so sad for you.
P.S. Why don't you look up the reference about judging others oh holier than thou...
Deb,
There is a HUGE difference between judging someone and reproving them. As fellow Christian believers, the Bible tells us explicitly that it is good to reprove one another when found incorrect on a specific doctrine. That is why we have the Bible in the first place; so that heresy and apostasy do not creep into the true Word of God and/or the true Gospel of Christ.
If I did not reprove and/or correct you, then I would have to answer to the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ as to why I didn't do so.
It's ironic, actually, that you think of yourself so highly as to have permission to reprove me and my comments, yet you then turn around and judge me as you so often do. Open your own eyes, Deb! Take those scales off before it's too late!
On the contrary to what you believe about my efforts at this blog, many other Christians who post here agree with my comments. What does this tell you?
Others here and elsewhere may be more successful than I in blaming the conduct of gcm advocates while expressing themselves with warmth and concern. You seem to continually accuse me of portraying the truth of Scripture with the intent of inflicting personal injury or affront (as you mentioned when you claimed I'm "hateful" and "holier than thou"). However, I have proceeded wholly from a zeal for the truth and purity of the gospel. You don't see that do you?
Readers might be led to ask, why is that? It is because you are looking at this discussion "in the flesh" and your primary concern is your welfare and happiness as a lesbian identified person.
But I'm not approaching you in order to appease your "in the flesh" desires. I am trying to awaken you to the fact that spiritually, you might be better disposed to receive the admonitions I have been giving you based on what God's Word says.
God's Word tells us (as Christian believers) that in reproving others we should take care to convince those who are skewing Scripture to appease their flesh that our reproofs do not proceed from any private irritation or resentment, but from a sincere regard to the honor of God, His call for us to be holy and strive towards righteousness, and cling to the true gospel of Christ for the welfare of all who may be struggling with this issue.
Deb,
You know and God knows, you ain't there yet. When you let go of the it ain't a sin routine, watch out.
What do I mean by you ain't there yet? God has no interest in making you "straight"! He wants you on His terms, and that would be all of you. His word or yours? and You ain't there yet.
I do happen to think you will be. God has always used our weaknesses to bring Him glory. I pray you will really let God drive one day, not just hold your wheel for awhile. There is a big difference. :)
.."On the contrary to what you believe about my efforts at this blog, many other Christians who post here agree with my comments. What does this tell you?"
It tells me nothing. Count the number of Christians who post on my blog, and it outweighs yours at any given day. Now, what does that tell you?
Your blog is all about judging. How can you not see that? All you do is judge other "sinners" or thought to be sinners.
You're a hypocrite, Christine.
Why don't you post something positive once in a while, or post something other than homosexual issues.
You can't if you don't have content.
What is content?
Love inside your heart. A genuine love that enables people to read, relate and be able to look at life in a positive way.
You?
You scare people with religious propaganda and turn people away from God due to your destructive way of preaching.
You've lied and said that I have taken away and added from the bible, when in fact, I have taken scripture word-for-word from the bible.
I have to say though, I have never been quite disgusted with another Christian, until now.
Peace.
Deb,
you say Your blog is all about judging. How can you not see that?
How can a true follower of Christ, a mature student of the Bible like yourself, a true child of God, willing to give their life for its truth, do anything less than judge, judge, judge and then some more judging?
Did God, Paul, Peter, John, for instance not judge? The answer is obvious, they did indeed! Please, do some judging, and start at home, your own heart. I think you will find your distaste for Christine, me, and perhaps others is more rooted in making your world view less uncomfortable against a perfect Holy God and His word, than anything else.
Please walk up to the cross of Christ, as many do. However, only a few will lay it all down and become His "slave". It will hurt, you will suffer, and you will be rejected here and now. Those that don't accept such a heart felt change will perish, no matter how many times they quote scripture, heal in His name, and preach His word.
Let's see what Deb ignored in my last comment to her:
1. There is a HUGE difference between judging someone and reproving them. As fellow Christian believers, the Bible tells us explicitly that it is good to reprove one another when found incorrect on a specific doctrine. That is why we have the Bible in the first place; so that heresy and apostasy do not creep into the true Word of God and/or the true Gospel of Christ.
2. If I did not reprove and/or correct you, then I would have to answer to the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ as to why I didn't do so.
3. It's ironic, actually, that you think of yourself so highly as to have permission to reprove me and my comments, yet you then turn around and judge me as you so often do. Open your own eyes, Deb! Take those scales off before it's too late! [Note: Add the accusation of "hypocrite" to Deb's list of judging me, too.]
4. Others here and elsewhere may be more successful than I in blaming the conduct of gcm advocates while expressing themselves with warmth and concern. You seem to continually accuse me of portraying the truth of Scripture with the intent of inflicting personal injury or affront (as you mentioned when you claimed I'm "hateful" and "holier than thou"). However, I have proceeded wholly from a zeal for the truth and purity of the gospel. You don't see that do you?
5. Readers might be led to ask, why is that? It is because you are looking at this discussion "in the flesh" and your primary concern is your welfare and happiness as a lesbian identified person.
6. But I'm not approaching you in order to appease your "in the flesh" desires. I am trying to awaken you to the fact that spiritually, you might be better disposed to receive the admonitions I have been giving you based on what God's Word says.
7. God's Word tells us (as Christian believers) that in reproving others we should take care to convince those who are skewing Scripture to appease their flesh that our reproofs do not proceed from any private irritation or resentment, but from a sincere regard to the honor of God, His call for us to be holy and strive towards righteousness, and cling to the true gospel of Christ for the welfare of all who may be struggling with this issue.
And, what did she focus on?
deb wrote:
It tells me nothing. Count the number of Christians who post on my blog, and it outweighs yours at any given day. Now, what does that tell you?
It's all about you now, isn't it Deb...
Just as Mark implied with his response, until you are willing to do the following, it will continue to be all about you...
Please walk up to the cross of Christ, as many do. However, only a few will lay it all down and become His "slave". It will hurt, you will suffer, and you will be rejected here and now. Those that don't accept such a heart felt change will perish, no matter how many times they quote scripture, heal in His name, and preach His word.
Does narcissism ring a bell to anyone but me and Christine?
I gotta be honest, it is a major theme in the homosexual affirming folks I know, among other love of self over all else destructive crap. I say this not to hurt, but to shed some light.
"...It is because you are looking at this discussion "in the flesh" and your primary concern is your welfare and happiness as a lesbian identified person."
I'm much more than just an "identified lesbian". I'm a daughter, a sister, a friend, a partner, a companion, ...but most of all, I am a child of God. I'm God's child, which you have judged and ridiculed, just because you believe differently. There's so much more to me. You only see a fraction of who I truly am, because we're online, but if you would just open your eyes and heart, you'll see that there's much more to people than just what you make them out to be.
It's Christians such as yourself which discourage me, and give me a feeling of dispair. I avoid people of your nature like the plague, because you're not out there "spreading the word of love", you're out there focusing only on homosexuals, or at least most of the time, which tells me that you have some sort of hidden issue with it...
So, my 'oh holier than thou' friend, may you have peace knowing that your judgments, and only yours, are correct. Isn't that what you want? For everyone to agree with you? Because, you know, you're always "right", and of course, you have "righteous judgment".
Hyporcite. I wonder what God will say to you when you get up to the gates of heaven.
"You never knew me."
Get to know Him. Maybe you'll start treating others like humans instead of disgusting animals.
You treat people like utter dirt when they live differently than you do or believe differently.
God is the only judge.
Peace.
Nothing, I repeat NOTHING good can be gained when we attack one another. I don't care if we think we're trying to help someone by setting them straight, - no pun intended in this situation - if we attack all we do is push people away. I don't care how 'right' we believe we are based on what we know of the Bible and Jesus' teachings. If we approach someone with an aire of superiority or aggressiveness, we risk alienating the other person, and not just from ourselves, but from God. Is that the same thing as saying we should accept what we might believe to be wrong? No. It just means that if you feel as if someone has strayed from the path God wants us to travel, help them find it again with love and encouragment, not with hurling insults and accusations at one another. I know you think I'm wrong when I say things like this, Christine, but honestly, don't you see how destructive WE, as Christians, can be, even if we are doing what we believe God wants us to do? Do you really believe for one second that God would be proud of us for screaming at each other, hurling insults, calling names and pointing fingers at one another, especially in HIS name? Sorry, but I don't believe that. I never will.
If you feel called to reprove someone about something, no matter what it is, then by all means, do it. You are right, if you feel called to witness to someone and choose not to, you will be held accountable. But, there is a difference between witnessing and accosting. There is a difference between planting the seeds and poking someone with the proverbial stick.
One of the hardest lessons I've had to learn is to not fight back when someone aggressively challenges what I have to say regarding my faith. Even if I believe 100% that I am right, it serves no purpose to strike back and resort to name calling. Sometimes, we must simply turn the other cheek and walk away from the situation until we have cooled down. Oh, it's far easier said than done, but, it CAN be done.
Jesus was a teacher. So must we each be. We can teach nothing if we push people away before we've had the chance to share the Word.
Jaded, I'm sorry to have to say this. It appears to me that you are criticizing my words (and, possibly Mark's) and so-called 'aggressiveness' while giving Deb a complete pass for her name-calling. You can correct me if I'm wrong in that observation.
I post for an audience of One. And that is God and His Word. If it displeases certain people, then that's their own problem.
There are mountains of evidence over at gay christian movement watch; especially the latest post which deals with Tracking the gay christian movement.
There is no doubt, based on God's Word how damaging and destructive this movement is. It is steeped in heresy and apostasy. Pointing out heresy is beneficial for many reasons. It's not a game of "who is right and who is wrong," Jaded. It's a matter of who or what is steering (or keeping) people out of the kingdom of God. The true gospel of Christ is an offense to those who are perishing. When a movement within any Christian church is "just like the world" our spiritual antenna should go up.
Don't have time to finish but this verse speaks well to this situation we find ourselves in:
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I'm sorry that you couldn't read my words without defensive eyes, Christine. If you had, you would have seen that I was speaking to anyone and everyone who participates in the name calling, aggressiveness, etc. etc. etc. Everyone. I also included myself in that scenario, and shared that it is something I've had trouble with personally, but that I've been working on it.
How, exactly, is name calling, finger pointing etc., NOT "just like the world?" Where in the Bible did Jesus attack people, scream at them, belittle them? He even asked for forgiveness for the very men who crucified Him. When I ask myself if this is how Jesus would behave, or would want us to behave, I know in my heart that the answer is NO. I know this because He didn't behave like that when He was on earth, so why would He approve of it now?
Again, I was speaking to anyone who acts and reacts defensively, which often leads to the name calling, attacking and all of the other things of which we've all been guilty, myself included. You and I, as well as Mark and I, have been able to share our faith with each other without harsh words because I have been working on listening openly, not with my immediate reaction to be a defensive one. When I do that, I am able to listen more clearly, learn more from others and share more freely without driving a wedge between us.
Well I think jaded's point is this: We must remain in the spirit of Christ when we are proclaiming the truth of God and His word. If we respond to those who are against us in the spirit of the world, we are being led by the same evil spirit they are. I can agree with that.
That said, the truth of God's word is ment to offend jaded. It should make anyone living in the dark very uncomfortable, and yes quite defensive.
IMHO, Christine has done nothing but speak the truth with quite a fair amount of patience and humility. I believe there is a time for being sensitive to other's feelings and most certainly a time to offend them right to the core of their being.
This is a critical time for christians. We have sat on our asses, remained deathly quiet, while the secular world as entered our churchs, taken leadership postions and destroyed the authority of God's word. The gay affirming theology has led the charge. Shame on us!
Jaded asked,"Where in the Bible did Jesus attack people, scream at them, belittle them?"
Answer: In the Temple when he trashed and overturned the moneychangers tables. He also "screamed and belittled" the Pharisees and called them 'a brood of vipers.'
Jaded, God's Word isn't pansy-ville stuff. It's the Word of God in truth! And, what's more, the Word of God is described as being like
'a sword,'Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
'fire' and
'a hammer,' Jer 23:29 [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?
'water,' Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
[Note: Rejection of Jesus causes people to remain in sin as 'broken cisterns that can hold no water':
Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.]
and a 'lamp.' Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.
I'm reading an excellent book that I think every Christian should read:
Landmines in the Pathway of the Believer by Charles Stanley. His chapter on compromise is awesome! It informs us of the reasons people end up compromising, what a costly decision it is, and how to say no to compromise.
The landmines of compromise include:
1. Experiencing doubt and fear
2. Desire for unity
3. Deep need for acceptance
4. Overwhelmed by peer pressure
5. Failing to give God what He requires
6. Becoming spiritually weak and discouraged
7. Being blinded by pride
Then, what happens when one yields their life and heart to the spirit of compromise?
1. Your character is weakened
2. Your personal testimony is diluted and suffers
3. God's truth becomes irrelevant
4. People abandon God's Word
That exactly describes the sad route of compromise that the gay christian movement (as well as many of the other heretical ministries out there) has taken.
I don't think that Jesus wants us to stay silent about exposing compromise and heretical beliefs being imposed upon the Gospel.
James 1 is just one of dozens of Scriptural warnings against compromise.
Pay special attention to these:
Jam 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jam 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. (bold mine)
Stanley's book:
[W]hen He has made it clear that we are not to do a certain thing, no amount of pleading and bending of the rules will work. Obedience always involves a choice: God's way or the wrong way.
Lot compromised and ended up in Sodom. Abraham compromised and almost lost his wife. David compromised with Bathsheba and lost a son. Pilate compromised what he knew was true and was denied the opportunity to know the Savior. Compromise is costly.
With this in mind, what are the areas in which we compromise the most?
Morality. We know what is right, but we ignore the truth for fear of not having our needs met. We may also be afraid that if we stand for what we believe, we will face rejection. For example, we know entering a sexual relationship outside marriage is wrong, but often people will excuse what they are doing by saying, "You don't understand the loneliness I feel," or "Things just began to happen and I couldn't say no."
The question is, is it better to say no and remain in God's will or risk the opposite? God does not bless sin, and compromise leads to sin every single time unless we turn away from what we know is not pleasing Him.
Principles.
[It] is not unusual in today's society to hear someone say, "I know they are living a homosexual lifestyle, but as long as they are not harming me, then I'm not going to say anything about them. Besides, they are nice people.
The fact that while God loves every sinner, He hates sin. It is open rebellion against him and His truth, and it does hurt each one of us. Sin, in any form, is the primary element in the erosion of our society. Sadder still is that far too often it is no longer shameful. It is embraced and encouraged by even the church.
Doctrinal beliefs.
[W]hen we compromise our convictions, fail to spend time with the Lord in prayer and the study of his Word, we are bound to end up hedging on our doctrinal views. Too many pastors who stand behind pupits every Sunday do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of the living God. They deny its God-breathed inspiration and lead their congregations astray by calling God's sovereignty into question.
end of quote
The gay christian movement has compromised in all three of these areas.
It is my prayer that through the efforts of gcm watch and other bloggers who will not compromise the truth on this issue, those who are involved in this sinful compromise will be lifted out of such deception. Breaking ties with this stronghold of compromise will allow God to open their eyes, heart and mind to His truth!
Don't allow the world to define who you are or what you will become. Seek God's approval. Surrender your life to Him and watch as He removes all those things that once held you captive!
Mark said:
"Well I think jaded's point is this: We must remain in the spirit of Christ when we are proclaiming the truth of God and His word. If we respond to those who are against us in the spirit of the world, we are being led by the same evil spirit they are."
I can not believe I'm about to say this, but, Mark, that's EXACTLY what I meant. EXACTLY!
I'm not talking about compromising anything. I am merely stating that we must speak the truth of God in the spirit of God, not with the anger, resentment, defensiveness, self-righteousness etc., that might be considered "of the world."
I believe it's important to rally against sin in an effort to encourage others to turn away from it. Of course, we all sin, and we must repent for that. But picking fights with one another does nothing but serve the world, not God.
I understand that you are partial to Charles Stanley and his teachings. You know how I feel about those who make tons and tons of cash by running the so-called "mega churches." I also know that he created quite the scandal when he divorced his wife several years ago. Divorce is a sin, according to the Bible. Yes, he's human, I get that. But I'd prefer to find my religious guidance from someone who hasn't gotten rich by selling God's word, which is exactly what I feel he and those like him have done, including his son. The truth is in the Bible, not in Charles Stanley's books, which sell for a hefty profit. Plus, he's just a man and he could be wrong. The Bible isn't.
jaded,
I want you to make a very important mental note! Your entire relpy had NOTHING to do with the absolute BIBLICAL supported truth Christine laid out with the references to Dr. Stanley. Who by the way is an outstanding Biblical servant, not a pulpit pimp as you implied.
Seems to me at this point, you are less interested in the actual truth being proclaimed, and more interested in who is doing it and their motives. That sister, is is a very bad place to be. Please take that to heart and pray about it.
The first thing out of your mouth in response to what Christine just wrote, should have been along the lines of ..AMEN! SISTER! The fact that such biblical truths escaped your notice does indeed trouble me.
If it's directly from the Bible, it's the truth, period. It is unrefutable. Plus, my whole point wasn't about debating Biblical truth, but about how we present it. The Biblical truths did not escape me, Mark.
Sorry, Mark, but I don't particularly care for Dr. Stanley. Then again, I don't particularly care for the tone of the Southern Baptist conference lately either, and he's a huge part of that. They have begun to ahdere to the antiquated idea that men are superior to women, and women are here merely to serve men. It's one of the reaons Jimmy Carter left the SBC, which he's spoken about at length in interviews and in his latest book. Plus, I believe that divorce is a sin, as Jesus stated it was. Dr. Stanley said he'd step down as pastor of his church if he got divorced, but the bylaws keep him eligible to remain pastor if he doesn't remarry. When you can keep your pulpit on a technicality, I have a problem with that. Again, however, he is a man. I don't worship him, I don't have to adhere to his interpretations or teachings, because he is not the absolute authority on the Word of God. The fact that we don't agree about this particular man's ministry should mean pretty much nothing in the grand scheme, as long as we agree that what is contained in the Bible is the absolute truth.
Jaded,
You are kinda getting off of the topic here. If you don't care for Charles Stanley as a pastor, so be it. But the truth he shares about God's Word is important. His personal life may not match up to your level of scrutiny, but neither does Deb's; yet you read her blog and comments (or so I think because you have a link to her blog at yours).
Not dwelling on the divorce issue here, but there is a provision for divorce because "man's hearts are hardened" and in the case of adultery, it is permissible.
You have a problem with Dr. Stanley's personal life but not Deb's. Why give her a pass and not him?
There are no perfect authors out there. However, the perfection and truth of God's Word can be expounded upon to make a point. Stanley's book is designed to:
1. Address the nine primary landmines that every Christian must identify and defuse in order to live a victorious life.
2. Provide biblical principles for clearing the landmines out of your life.
3. Show us that while sin has consequences, God's restoration is ours the moment we confess, repent, and turn to Him through seeking forgiveness for our sin.
The gcm landmines are often so subtle and hard to detect because of the cloud of deception and compromise that is involved. Those leaders are directly responsible for tearing emotional holes in the lives of those who are being misled in such a perverse way.
As Mark mentioned in a previous comment, as fellow Christians we should be most interested in the actual truth being proclaimed. When the truth of the Bible is being shared without compromise, then we need not fear who is doing it and their motives. The exact opposite is true when God's Word is being compromised by so-called leaders or pastors who would twist, undermine, falsify and/or pass along obvious heresies like those involved in the gay christian movement.
Once again jaded, just like many others, the second A BIBLICAL TRUTH has been used to offend the sin, BOOM, lets talk about who proclaimed it, the tone of voice, or the attitude used etc etc etc.
I guess David, Moses, Abraham, Peter, Paul, and Jesus Christ God in flesh, would have pissed you off too, eh?
Can't we all get along and go to heaven?
Can't we all admit we are sinners and stop judging right from wrong with our mouths and actions?
Can't we just let God take care of it?
Can't we just love everyone without any type of discipline?
Can't we trust Jesus to take care of our sins and the sins of others?
Can't you just let go of the Old Testament?
Can't you see God changes his mind?
Can't you realize Christ died for all the sins of all people?
Can't you just do what feels good and works, and stop asking if it is right or is it true?
clearing throat...NO!
They have begun to ahdere to the antiquated idea that men are superior to women, and women are here merely to serve men.
You hate the word submit jaded! Why? becuase you have not a clue to what it means in God's word, husband or wife, not a clue. Hint: Submiting to God is at the center. Oh, can you name a man in the pulpit that has not sinned that you would be more prone to accept when preaching biblical truths?
BTW Jaded, Jimmy Carter hugged, kissed, and broke bread with Jim Jones! Jim Jones MURDERED innocent children, men, and women. Screw Jimmy Carter and his theology.
Shame on you jaded, shame on you!
Plus, I believe that divorce is a sin, as Jesus stated it was.
and homosexuality is not? that's why you link your gay christian friends selling books???. Maybe you just are lonely jaded.
When you can keep your pulpit on a technicality, I have a problem with that.
When you jaded call yourself a christian and support homosexual affirming authors calling themselves a follower of Christ, I have a problem with that. In fact, I would call you nothing short of anti-christ! You are with Christ or not. There is no middle ground.
Why not just admit you do not have the intestinal fortitude to unashamed proclaim God's word to those you care about?
Christine says:
"...Jaded, I'm sorry to have to say this. It appears to me that you are criticizing my words>"
Story of her blog. You want some cheese with that whine?
Christine, obviously you are obsessed with lesbians. You focus your entire blog on homosexuality- almost 95%.
Maybe it's time to give up the fight and realize that it's either not a sin, or that you're a lesbian yourself.
I opt for the second choice, although I would be sad to know you're on my team.
Out of love? (HA) Your preaching is out of conceit. There is no loving basis from your "advice".
You're just upset that other people are happy and that they're happy with their relationship with God.
Can't you be happy that others are drawing near to God?
No. Of course you can't because you're not near to God yourself. Your a self-proclaimed "Christian" who talks the talk but can't walk the walk.
Hypocrite.
Better off deleting your blog so that innocent souls don't stray or get too "scared" of God. (Or "your God".)
Deb,
I'm not going to be drawn into your petty, narcissitic drivel-filled blather.
I will continue to stick to what is truly important in this ongoing conversation.
Oh my gosh Mark! I never knew that little fact about Jimmy Carter. The "skeletons in his closet" just keep on multiplying. What a tragic person
Carter turned out to be in our nation's history.
Jaded, Mark and I aren't trying to pick on you. I know it must seem that way, but we really aren't. We are hoping to make you see that condoning the behavior of your gay-identified friends could make them vulnerable to Satan's snare of compromise in sin. Remember. The gospel is an affront and a "stumbling block" to those who are perishing. They are not going to repent gleefully. It is a sorrowful and humbling event in each born-again person's life.
It's late so I will finish this tomorrow.
Yes, Christine, you really are, because you have some twisted personal need to be 'right' at all costs. You take what I say, without really HEARING it, and add your own spin to it in an effort to prove how much of an "anti-Christ" I am. Putting a link to Deb's blog doesn't make me a non-Christian, nor does it make me the anti-christ. Deb is a human being who deseves the love that Jesus told us...COMMANDED us...to share. She is no different than you, Mark, nor Christine, nor me.
And, no, Chrisine, I didn't stray from the topic. My topic in this post has ALWAYS been that nothing good can come from attacking one another, no matter how 'right' you believe yourself to be. I included ALL of us in that statement, you, Mark, Me AND DEB. You are the one who didn't listen to what *I* had to say and immediately turned it into something about how I attacked you and gave Deb a "pass," like you were a child who got accused of something and had to point at your friend and say "well she did it too." Your comment was not appropriate because it had NOTHING to do with what I'd said.
And Mark, please find in ANY of the comments I've left on this post where I said that I agree with the idea of gay theology. Please show me on here where I linked her book and tried to get people to purchase it. Please find in here where I said that homosexuality isn't against God's word. And when you find all of those non-existent comments, then first explain to me how you could spew such vile accusations without one single word of which you accuse me. Not that I expect an apology from you, because that would mean you'd have to admit you might have been wrong about something, but you certainly owe one. No, not to me, but to God for making false accusations about me. You're right, how dare Jimmy Carter break bread with someone who later turned out to be evil. Jesus never associated with the likes of lepers, prostitutes, murderers, liars, thieves etc. He was too good for them. How you can think breaking bread with someone is as sinful as divorcing your wife, when Jesus has absolutely forbidden it except in extreme circumstances. Charles Stanley admitted that his marriage woes were his own fault because his childhood problems. He said he'd step down from pastorship because his divorce was not in accordance with God's will. HE said that, not me. And when the time came to actually do what he said he'd do, he told his congregation that God told him he had to stay on because someone had to provide leadership, and that he was the one who had to do it. He then told the congregation, BEFORE they voted on whether to keep him or not, that if they voted him out, they'd have to live with it, because God wanted him to stay. Nice. Nothing like a little manipulation and intimidation to keep your job. His own son, by the way, resigned from his father's congregation and started his own church because he believed his father should have stepped down. His own son, who is also a pastor, knew what his father was doing was wrong. I have read article after article documenting Dr. Stanley's flip-flopping on Biblical issues, and his out and out blasphemy,(like how he said that God would NEVER condemn a man to hell just because he hadn't heard about Jesus, which we know is NOT what it says in the Bible, which makes it blasphemy) but it would make no difference to include them all here. You think he's the mouthpiece for God, and that's fine.
You can both tell yourselves that your vile, slanderous attacks are really justified. You can tell yourselves that you have every right to declare someone the anti-christ. You can tell yourselves that by calling me lonely, telling me that I don't have the intestinal fortitude to submit to the will of God, you're completely right on point, because even though you don't know me at all, your judgements are accurate. I give you permission to judge me as you see fit. What, I don't have the authority to grant you permission? Nope. But you don't have the authority to pass the judgment to begin with.
In Romans 2:1-3, Paul says "Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. And do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment upon those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?"
So, even the most moral man can judge one they consider to be immoral, whether it be an adulterer, liar, thief, murderer etc. But by doing so, he is gossiping and showing arrogance. You can condemn the one who is involved in the sin while you are being unloving and without mercy. You are critical of the person who lacks understanding, but you do it by being arrogant about your own understanding. (I'm paraphrasing from a Bible study excerpt from my church, which contributed by the pastor of a non-denominational Bible church in Oklahoma. I don't have it in front of me, so I don't recall the name) That is a sin! Which was my point to begin with!!
I read a quote in a devotional recently that applies here, for me, at least "Sometimes God calms the storm. But sometimes, He lets the storm rage and calms His child."
Continue your fighting and hurling insults at one another, and at me. Rage. I'll have no further part in it. I don't need the last word, 'cause guess what? It's not about me, it's not about any of you, it's about God. Period.
I am calm. Glory to God.
(like how he said that God would NEVER condemn a man to hell just because he hadn't heard about Jesus, which we know is NOT what it says in the Bible, which makes it blasphemy)
Sorry, jaded. A man, woman, child, that has never heard the good news of Christ will not go to Hell de facto. Devine revelation may be at play in those lives, but not automatic. Calling that blasphemy is no different than what you call vile from my mouth.
You can tell yourselves that you have every right to declare someone the anti-christ.
I never said you were THE anti-christ, I said your postion was anti-christ. Read 3 John.
Jaded, I do indeed love you and I most assurdely love Deb. I do NOT think I am any more the affection of God's eye than anyone.
Speaking for me alone, yes I have been in error for being too harsh with those who lack understanding and I also lack understanding them and their own personal trials and dispostion. I would not however let that fact lead me to comfort anyone in their error.
I think some folks that are strong in faith, strong in upholding Biblical authority etc..are too often called unloving and arrogant. It is not judging as you have used it when you correct with God's word, ever. If I say I am without sin and condem another's sins, that would be wrong, that is what you quoted with Paul.
I am a sinner, I do not measure up to God's holy standard, sexual or otherwise in many other things as well. That does not mean I will call that which is unholy, holy. Nor will I celebrate it, no matter what it is. To do so is indeed anti-christ.
The Bible says:
Romans 1:18
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
I included all of that 'cause I know if I stopped after verse 20, someone would have added the rest to make it seem like I missed that part. I didn't.
Anyway, because it is God's will that none shall perish, then we have to believe and trust that He has made a way for EVERYONE to have heard of salvation through Christ. He sends angels. He provides miracles. And there IS NO EXCUSE for NOT seeking him.
Hal Lindsey says:
"You see, God brings everyone to "God-consciousness" through the witness of creation. When a person anywhere, in any culture comes to God-consciousness � and then desires to know this God, He will move Heaven and Earth to get the true message to him. If he dies without hearing about Jesus Christ, it's because he did not want to know the true God."
There is no excuse. If you die without having heard of Jesus, you will go to hell because you are a sinner who chose not to seek the one true God. The Bible tells us that God's presence is in everything, and we must seek His Truth. There is no excuse for not doing so.
You act like I make this stuff up.
No I don't jaded. I see what you are saying and what Dr Stanley said.
God is Jesus, however, if someone has never heard the name Jesus does not by fact go to Hell. Like I said, devine revelation is at work, which is what Hal Lindsey is talking about in his own understanding. The same way Stanely talked about it.
I disagree with neither of them fundementally. God will indeed be glorified and known to all. That's about as far as I am able to go at this point in my understanding. Another thing to consider re Mr. Lindsey's comment, God choses us, we do not choose God. :)
It doesn't matter much to me what either of those men say. I used Hal Linsey as an example because he is a prominent figure in religion today, and I when I first became a Christian as a teenager, I found his books to be very helpful, starting with "The Late, Great Planet Earth." I particularly liked "Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth." He has a book out about Islamic Jihadists that I would like to read, actually. I don't always agree with what he says, because he sometimes makes "predictions" that seem kind of out there to me but overall, I find his teachings to be Biblically sound. However, the Bible seems very clear to me when it says "so they are without excuse." Actually, I don't think there's much to misunderstand when reading through verse 20 of the excerpt I included above. It is the irrefutable, unerring Word of God.
It's not what *I* am saying at all...but it IS what God said. I have to believe He was telling the truth, and that he meant every word of it. There is no excuse.
I am now headed out to be 'lonely' with my family as I take my daughter for swimming and dinner at my parents' house. We have many busy, family oriented activities planned in the days ahead as Mr. Jaded returns home from a business trip this evening, so, I will not be around much until late next week.
Play nice.
please excuse my lonely comment, it was a poor way to make a point, and was not in the spirit of Christ! :)
Have a great time!
Jaded, that's just it though...They don't view anyone as "human". They attack, criticize and condemn those who are "sinners". We are all sinners. Are they being "Christ-like"? Certainly not in my opinion.
Christine in the type of woman who seems full of herself and her 'self-righteousness', which is overwhelmingly sickening.
It's too bad, because she's going to realize one day how Jesus did come across and how He loved those who were sinners---which includes every single person on this earth.
She's no different. Until she realizes that, she'll have to do a lot of explaining to St. Peter at the gates!
Can't save them all.
Sad, huh?
Oh boy.
I just knew that when I returned from a day of ATV riding with my family, there would be a war raging on here.
Where to start?
I'll start from the last comment and go up.
Deb, the Bible tells us that "not one is righteous; no, not one." The only one who is righteous and ever lived a sinless life here on this earth is Jesus. Self-righteousness is something that happens to people who think they aren't sinners. I know that I am a sinner in need of the Savior. Once born-again, I strive to follow him and obey his commandments out of love for what he did for me at the cross of Calvary. When I remember Jesus' suffering and dying on the cross at each communion time, I still weep for the fact that he really did have to die for me, for you, for all. If there was any other way, God would have done it.
Yes! Jesus loves us all. However, he hates sin. If he didn't hate sin, then there would have been no need for him to die on the cross to save us from the consequences of our own sins.
Jesus loved and associated with sinners. However, his encounters with them led to changed lives. He never condoned their sin. Some examples are the woman at the well, the adulterous woman, and Peter boasting he would never betray Jesus then denied Jesus three times.
When Jesus asked Peter three times, "do you love me more than these?" and Peter answered, "yes;" it was obvious that Jesus was restoring him back into the fold of discipleship. Jesus then told Peter, "feed my sheep." That encounter has much symbolism for us today.
Jaded, I didn't say that your actions were "anti-Christ." Please don't just lump me in with another's comments. Mark explained what he meant.
This whole argument about Charles Stanley and/or Hal Lindsey is probably not really necessary, but if you want to continue in it - have at it.
The part that was brought up about, 'what about those who have never heard of Jesus?' has been answered quite well by several biblical scholars. Several make a point about the difference between general revelation (the Bible) and special revelation (Jesus Christ in the New Testament).
It is true, however, that with modern technology being so readily available, the fact that the gospel can be presented world wide today is more of a reality than in the times of the biblical writers. Think of how cumbersome, time-consuming, and difficult travel and communications were back then. Today, people from all over the world can log onto the internet and hear about Jesus.
Perhaps this might make for another good blog topic. But briefly, I recall a sermon where the pastor reiterated the fact that we are not condemned to hell for what we don't know, but for what we do know and ultimately reject regarding Jesus Christ.
There is a lot more to consider on this topic (e.g. age of accountibility; those who lived before Christ in the hope of the coming Messiah etc.). I will get a post up about it when I can.
Mark, ever hear about the man who won the "most humble award" pin at his church and when he accepted the award, they chastised him; and when he wore the award pin they took it away?
I think that story is a joke.
However, I must hand it to you for the fact that you always present yourself as a sinner saved by grace and are not afraid to admit your errors and mistakes while trying to reach others with the true gospel of Christ. Just didn't want you to think I haven't noticed that about you. It is a commendable trait.
I have not always been kind either. Therefore, I must apologize to both Jaded and Deb for my sins, errors, missteps, and mistakes.
Deb, I shouldn't have called your comments "narcissistic drivel-filled blather." I was just lazy and didn't want to address your ad hominem attacks. Sometimes I wonder if you seriously mean what you post or are just saying things to get me upset or angry.
Jaded, I apologize for attacking you and your beliefs which are often different from mine on minor issues, however, are right on target most of the time, biblically.
And, no...I don't think that I am right all of the time. Heavens no!! Just ask my family! The only Words that are ever right all the time is God's Word. That is why Jesus used Scripture whenever Satan attempted (and tempted him) to keep him from carrying out his mission at the cross of salvation for our sakes.
It is for that reason that I quote Scripture often and not just my own opinions on a topic. Everyone can have their own opinion about anything. But absolute truth only comes from the Bible which is God-breathed.
Mark, I apologize for giving you "the most humble award." Wait! I take that back!!
heh heh...a little levity...
What I want to know is what ever happened to David and Daniel? They flew the coup early in this thread.
Oops...correction. General Revelation also includes man's understanding of Creation, the need for a Creator; thus, the fact that God exists and created us and all we see.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
P.S. Make that, "they flew the coop" early in this thread.
But that spelling error put a song in my mind!
Little Deuce Coupe...you don't know what I got....
Well I'm not braggin' babe so don't put me down...but I've got the fastest set of wheels in town...
Love those Beach Boys!
Ahhh for the love of Moses!
Those bastards gave me the pin, took it back, then mocked me for wearing it! Where does it all end alice, where does it all end !
By the way, I have no problem calling Deb's comments "narcissistic drivel-filled blather." Not at all actually, nor anyone elses for that matter, including my own at very very very rare times. :)
Just not as much as Deb's and I don't think she would have it any other way.
A mist in the pulpit, creates a fog in the pews!
I was reading something today that I found very interesting. See, there's a big debate going on in the Methodist church that pits the more liberal churches (ones, who for instance, allow gay clergy) and the evangelical Methodists (yes, there is such a thing.) My pastor has spoken of this rift many times, and says he doesn't take either side, he takes the side of John Wesley when it comes to the Methodists' dedication to the Word of God. Not all Methodist churches ascribe to inerrancy of the Bible. But, as I stated earlier in this string of comments, I believe the Bible is the authority, period.
This is from an article by Dale Tedder. I'm sure you can find him on line, but I have it in literature from my church.
"Both United Methodist liberals and evangelicals need only look in their own historical backyard to see that their founder, John Wesley, was committed to inerrancy. Wesley's high view of Scripture is generally agreed to by most within the Church, liberal or evangelical. Discussing Wesley's view of Scripture, Joel Green says, "The authority of Scripture can logically be divided into two functions, authority as source of truth and as norm for truth. Wesley sees the Bible as both." Bishop Earl Hunt quotes Wesley:
"I want to know one thing, the way to Heaven: how to land safe on that happy shore. God himself has condescended to teach the way; for this very end He came from Heaven. He hath written it down in a book! O give me that book! At any price, give me the book of God! I have it: here is knowledge enough for me."
It is clear that Wesley was committed to sola Scriptura. This was a necessary part of what he deemed the "necessary things" that were essential for Methodists.
Although Wesley plainly had a high regard for Scripture, did he believe in the inerrancy of Scripture? Wesley clearly alludes to Scripture's inerrancy by suggesting:
"This is what we now style the Holy Scripture: this is that word of God which remaineth for ever: of which, though heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle shall not pass away. The Scripture therefore of the Old and New Testament, is worthy of God; and all things together are one entire body, wherein is no defect, no excess."
Wilber Dayton insinuates that it is wishful thinking to assert that Wesley did not believe in the infallibility of Scripture. Even those opposed to inerrancy admit that Wesley held some view of inerrancy. Colin Williams begrudgingly quotes Wesley as saying, "If there be any mistakes in the Bible, there may as well be a thousand." Though there is speculation as to what Wesley would say about inerrancy today, Dayton says, "if one takes Wesley as meaning what he says and as saying in clear and sober terms what he means, there can be no doubt that he would affirm the complete infallibility and inerrancy of the Scriptures. And if anyone has ever earned credibility for his statements, certainly Wesley has by his long and consistent life and by his zealous proclamation of the Word."
My point in sharing this is that Christine mentioned that she and I differ on minor points, but we agree on Biblical points. I think this is because while I consider myself someone who believes in inerrancy, as John Wesley did, I do not consider myself an evangelical Christian. Our faiths are based on the Bible as the authority of God's Word, but the differences in denomination, or evangelical vs. non-evangelical, make for for minor disagreements. My church is not liberal, nor is it evangelical. It is based on the historical intentions of John Wesley, which are that both the Old and New Testaments are without defect, and what is contained in them is what we must adhere to.
Hope that makes sense, 'cause I'm typing as fast as I can while Mr. Jaded is getting ready so we can head out.
This conversation has regressed into something not at all admonishing of each other, or Christ.
I have deleted my only previous post. I would encourage each of you, EACH OF YOU, to examine yourselves very closely and answer before yourselves and before God what your motives for continuing this debate really are.
I have followed this discussion from the beginning and I will say from a third party perspective, there is NO SHOWING OF LOVE OR RESPECT in this post at all. Any thread of genuine concern for one another has plainly been replaced with a desperate attempt to debate, and claim a "right" position. As such, none of us are "right."
Please forgive me for contributing to this prideful and destructive dialog.
Merwin,
Of course it is up to you to abandon ship here. However, sometimes voicing differences can eventually lead to better things. I think that Jaded's most recent post demonstrates that.
When I first started blogging (March 2005), I attended a GodBlog conference at Biola University. I learned many things as diverse opinions were shared. However, the two points that stuck with me were these:
1. If you wait to post and/or comment perfectly, you will end up never starting a blogpost or commenting on anything.
2. One professor's opinion about "evangelizing online" was that "blogging and evangelizing is a very difficult venture." The best we could hope for is encouraging people to seek out God's Word for themselves.
I have found both of these to be very true.
Meanwhile, those who adhere to Biblical inerrancy and Christian evangelicalism are more likely to agree with what I post. Those who hail from the more liberal denominations never will agree with what I post. That's just the way it has turned out to be.
There are many people who read here but do not comment. It would be nice to know what many of them think of what is shared here. Unfortunately, many wish to remain in the "reader only" category.
I do believe that God's Word never returns void; no matter who is sharing it. As long as exegesis rather than esogesis is utilized, the absolute truth of Scripture gets out there.
I do not see anyone's efforts here as "prideful" and "destructive." Even those with whom I disagree with have their moments of excellent contributions. Dialog between opposing views can be beneficial to readers. It could serve as a "we report, you decide" kind of thing.
I see a definite, underlying Christian agape love between all who comment here. It may not always come out via the written words, but I know it's there. Perhaps I see it because I have been blogging with them longer and have had wonderful dialogue at their blogs as well as other blogs, too.
Some people think that the opposite of love is hate. In some cases, that may be true. However, in this case, I think that indifference is the opposite of love. To use that old cliche' - "Friends don't let friends miss heaven."
Perhaps it's not wise to judge everything we share as "regression" through just what has transpired within this one thread, alone.
It helps to realize and remember that this issue regarding homosexuality is a continually volatile, argumentative, and opinion-filled worldly agenda. Thus, this demonstrates why God's Word must take precedence over all else in such a discussion. After all, the original goal and title of this blogpost was to find out what's truly at stake!
There are no "perfect" bloggers, Merwin. If you ever find one please let us all know.
Christine,
I first want to thank you for leaving that beautiful comment on my blog.
I too, am sorry for the way I came across. I admit, my sins are there, I have many of them... I repent, try to be good, then backslide over and over again. It's just the human in me. Do I love God? I do. I'm just human. I'm a sinner though, just as those who walk the earth with us.
In any event, your prayers for Madelene meant more than you know!
Thank you!
jaded said It is based on the historical intentions of John Wesley, which are that both the Old and New Testaments are without defect, and what is contained in them is what we must adhere to.
As a Methodist member, I say we must only adhere to not what John Wesley said, but what the Bible says. John Wesley, you and I all agree! :)
Merwin,
there is NO SHOWING OF LOVE OR RESPECT in this post at all.
Since when am I or anyone suppose to "respect" or show your defintion of "love" to anyone?
Please forgive me for contributing to this prideful and destructive dialog.
Who are you talking to? men or God?
Since when did calling others comments prideful and destructive show repesect and love, to use your own words?
I will file merwin's comments in the CS file. ;)
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