This blogpost is a continuation of an ongoing conversation between David, newcomer Daniel, and I. I have taken the liberty to bring some of the latest comments up from the post entitled,
Love, Responsibility and Holiness = Wholeness.
You can go to that link, read through the posts and comments in order to "catch up" on the conversation here.
I will begin with my comment which was reacting to David's post about intersexed people:
Look. I am not a medical doctor. I have heard of intersex people. I may not understand the entire plight that they are under, but I do think that you are mixing "apples and oranges" as the saying goes.
The Bible identifies people who are eunuchs. Whether it is by choice, medical procedure or by a "freak of nature" that they are the way they are, the fact is that we all live in a fallen world. Sin has permeated everything and everyone; whether it is a sexual problem, or any other sin problem. Scripture tells us that even the "whole creation groans for redemption." That just about covers everything...don't you think?
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
If you read the entire chapter of Romans 8 (NKJV), you will see (and hopefully realize) that as born again believers in Christ, we are to "mortify the deeds of the body" and not "live after the flesh."
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
What you have presented is scientific reasoning as to why some people have, unfortunately, been born intersexed.
Homosexual behavior has nothing to do with that anomaly.
But I do see where you are trying to go with this. You want to make a case for homosexuals "being born that way." Sorry. There is no scientific evidence of that.
I'm not here to debate the sexual anomalies that you have brought up and then stand by and watch you try to equate such findings as an excuse to continue in homosexual behavior while claiming to be a Christian. That will, ultimately, be a subject between you and God.
What I do know is that God's Word forbids homosexual sex between two men or two women. Period. End of story. People can twist, rearrange, argue, debate, eliminate certain verses, skew the meaning of certain verses all in an effort to make Scripture say what they desire it to say to satisfy their own fleshly desires (and, therefore, their own consciences).
However, to me it would be like trying to convince someone that murder is not sin, either. God's Word has the last say on the matter.
The question remains as to whether or not you (or any other gcm advocate) will humble themselves and admit they are wrong about gay sexual behavior or not. It is a choice that you will have to make and come to terms with during your earthly existence.
Just like a heterosexual person who claims to be a Christian yet continues to think he/she is not sinning when cheating through adulterous liasions with others; they will have to one day answer to Christ for their actions. I can't speak to that situation. It is one that is between God and each, separate, individual.
However, I can speak to the heretical lies that the gcm is spreading through a false gospel as they try to mold Jesus Christ, and belief in Him into their "own image" It is not only a form of adultery, but even worse, a form of idolatry.
Saying, believing and preaching that gay sex is O.K. with God and need not be repented of for entrance into the kingdom of heaven is a lie from Satan himself, David. I pray that you will one day be released from this deceptive stronghold in your life.
Meanwhile, if I were you I would be careful sharing heretical ideology with others and thus leading them away from reconcilation with God. That has eternal consequences attached to it and I sincerely hope that you wouldn't want those people who were led astray (by your heretical ideas) to miss heaven because of it.
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Next, here is newcomer Daniel's comment:
My name is Daniel. After reading many of the posts here I find myself wanting to respond with many ideas. So many I am not entirely sure I can sort them out to make this clear. This is my attempt (sorry if this is rather long).
As a person who is dealing with my sexual orientation I have spent a lot of time thinking these issues over. I want to be as objective as possible. I love Jesus, the bible, and also people. Let me say as a sinner and a Christian my heart is heavy for men and women sorting through their sexuality. It is physically taxing, emotionally draining, and spiritually significant!
It seems to me when this issue has been addressed in history prior to the late 19th century the first explanation for rejection was natural law. In other words because of the empirical nuisances of same sex relationships it could not be morally right. However, as this unfolded we began to see that there are many anomalies in nature. So often we find in nature events that break the rules. The same was true when we began to study sexuality. While it is true there is not a “gay” gene, it is true that there are diff. chemical relationships between many individuals that live active homosexual life styles and those that do not. Because of socio-biological experiments we can not count on nature to wholly answer this question. Either side can use research to justify their opinion; therefore empirical data can only aide us in a resolution.
If this is true then I believe we could agree that our senses and biology can not be trusted to conclusively answer this question. Jesus demonstrates this by breaking the laws of nature, most significantly the laws of death!!!
I find that when you look at both sides of the coin there continually is a matter of biblical interpretation. Since interpretation is essentially observations made from reading scripture and applying an opinion based on those observations…interpretation is essentially a matter of logic. If this is the case then understanding God would be based largely on ones intellectual capability. I am sure no one would say that those who are academic are closer to God then those who are less astute. We would agree that it is a matter of grace, not works…praise God!!! This is not to say that academic endeavors are vain…certainly not. They are a valuable aid in understanding good news, but they are not the heart of God.
I often get distressed when I read different thoughts and opinions from those before me. In all queries into the heart of God from the origin of life to the present you find new perspectives emerge. The theology of the modern day conservative while rooted in predecessors much more intelligent than any of us is quite different depending on the time it was written. So an evangelical today is practicing daily living activities that would be wildly gross to an evangelical that lived one hundred years ago. The same is true for the more liberal side. Therefore on one side Leviticus law is used as a reason for homosexuality as sin, and the other side as a reason for it being not explicitly sin. This observation leads me to conclude that the answer to this question can not be based solely on interpretation.
If this is true then I believe we would all agree that interpretation of our own and those before us only aides in an internal relationship established with God. It does not establish it! Jesus being the greatest mind of all time demonstrates this in his rebuke of the academic establishments. Equating knowledge of him to be more easily understood by ignorant children then masters of theology, ethics, and mores.
I find this to be ever so humbling when it comes to taking strong stances in my views of sexuality and spirituality. I have been conditioned to trust first what I see, hear, taste, ect, secondly, to trust my interpretation of it. My mind I have so often trusted even though my experience shows my logic to fall apart, my opinions to be ever so effected by my mood, and my imagination to be manipulated by circumstance.
Jesus help me!!! Who/what shall I trust???
I believe it is to trust in Jesus, but when I am so easily swayed by my mind, circumstance, and senses…what does that mean? I have often contemplated the “sermon on the mount” and marveled at the realization that Christ calls me to him. And this call was not physically witnessed by me, nor did I come to it by reason. It was an inward look!?!
As I have attempted to walk with my savoir into the chaos of my untamed spirit I find that empirical reality and logic do very little. They have helped materialize my sorting spirit through word and action. However, my thoughts and actions are only caused by the first effect in my heart.
What I have discovered in the sorted chaos of my spirit as it pertains to sexuality is this. I have a desperate desire for intimacy with men! And that is ok!! All men desperately desire intimate relationships with each other!!! I see this all the time when men get together. Whether it is at a local sport pub, gay bar, or prayer meeting, men love being around other men…almost. We all know men that are intimidated by other men. In the video that was discussed on the other blog there was a common theme amongst the young boys. When Pastor Jay was with the boys they confessed that being around other men made them nervous, they had been rejected by their male peers, and almost all of them made friends much more easily with girls.
When I was in college I desperately wanted to know if I was a man. I remember thinking what does it mean to be a man? And how to I get from a boy to a man? Having shared many experiences of rejection from males at an early age…I thought if I was a man other men would want to be around me. I knew they didn’t! And yet I was willing to do anything to get other men to want to be around me. I realized at some point we were all doing this…some of us through sports, others through girls and sex, and others through men and sex. It was so easy to walk into a gay bar look at the first man I saw and immediately get him to want to be around me…all it takes is a little sex. I later realized that this was not satisfying intimacy …and remember I know I want intimacy.
I decided I would try a relationship with a wonderful male. As I grew to love and respect him as a male our sex life began to grow increasingly frustrating. I found that I was having physical and mental problems trying to view him as a sexually intimate partner. You see my love for him caused me to want to aide in his masculinity not take from it.
As I began to study the ideas that surrounded Paul’s concepts of marriage, likening it to Christ and the church, I became increasingly aware of the metaphorical use as a picture of the gospel. When Paul walks us through a relationship of a husband he likens it to the head of a body. My head is where I process info, interpret my circumstance, run the rest of my body, and plan my future. I see it as a visionary leader, strong enough to have confidence in decisions, but smart enough to know it will not work without my body/heart. As a man in a relationship with another man I began to try and construct a theory of how this would work between two men.
I know I have loved a man, fought injustices and tackled great fears with a man. But I could not make a body out of two heads. I know that two heads are better than one…as the saying goes…but when was the last time you saw two heads do much good without a pair of hands, legs, and a heart.
I know that we often think of homosexuality in terms of love between two people, but so many men love each other with out sex. I am beginning to believe that homosexuality is sin. By sin I do not mean fire and brimstone, but rather something that causes our spirit to move outward. If we focus outwardly, rather than inwardly, we are sure to miss the presence of God. I have yet to see Jesus face to face.
From what I have observed in my life and others in and out of the gay community, it distracts me from my inward journey with Jesus. If I am just sexual I find I begin to be outwardly driven focusing on my appearance and the appearance of others. If I am sexual and trying to be intimate I find myself stuck in my head and no body to support me, no heart to keep me strong. Fundamentally homosexuality seems to be a manipulation of such a good thing (love between two men) to becoming a distraction from the good news that Jesus conquered death, asks you to go with him into the recesses of your dark and chaotic heart, so that you come out alive and ready to lose yourself in Him.
The biggest obstacle I face in questioning my sexuality is marriage (intimate long term relationships). I truly believe that God made us masculine and feminine, and while there are great varieties of the way that plays out in action, it is ever so entwined into my biology, logic, and heart. I can understand why it can seem so unreal for a gay person and myself to once again question their sexual identity. There is so much grace, goodness, and holiness to be found in relationships with persons of the same sex. But can two bodies make a head, or two heads make a body?
As we wrestle with these issues I pray we are gentle (not on the middle of the fence), to each other. There is more than an opinion when it comes to the heart.
6:37 PM
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Next, here is David's last comment:
Hello Christine....
Well, I do apologize. I seem to have hit a nerve here. There are lots of things here I could address, but I am only going to address some key things that you said in your last posting. First thing......
You said:
"I'm not here to debate the sexual anomalies that you have brought up and then stand by and watch you try to equate such findings as an excuse to continue in homosexual behavior while claiming to be a Christian. That will, ultimately, be a subject between you and God."
I am not "claiming" to be a Christian...I AM a Christian. I have accepted Christ as my personal Saviour. I have accepted His free gift of Salvation. I have asked Him to come into my life and to be honest with you, my walk with Christ has NEVER been stronger than it is today. Quite frankly, I take great offense to you sitting here saying to me that I am "claiming" to be a Christian. You have no idea of my history, what God has brought me through, and where He is taking me. So, I would appreciate if you would refrain from using this terminology with me or any other person you ever talk to. Because I could very easily turn right back around and say that you are "claiming" to be a Christian, and I would certainly never do that.
You said:
"Saying, believing and preaching that gay sex is O.K. with God and need not be repented of for entrance into the kingdom of heaven is a lie from Satan himself, David. I pray that you will one day be released from this deceptive stronghold in your life."
Obviously, our definitions of Salvation are two different things. What you just told me here is that if I am gay, I will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is so far from the truth that I just don't know what to say. I was released from ALL my sin when Christ hung on that cross and cried out.."IT IS FINISHED!!" Praise GOD for the gift of His Son. When Christ died, every sin that you or I have ever committed was FORGIVEN!! It was washed away under the blood of the holy Lamb of God And if you read Romans 10:9
"...the word of faith we are proclaiming that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED! For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved!"
Our Salvation has NEVER been dependent on whether or not we sin. After many, many nights of being physically ill and coming to our Father and grappling with the fact that I was gay, He finally gave me peace. He gave me the Peace that passes all understanding. We will certainly differ in our interpretation of Scripture. And if I am wrong, then I, and only I, will answer for that. Just like you will answer for everything that you have done. Sin is sin. There is no difference. There are no varying degrees of sin. One sin is not any worse than any other. There is NOTHING we can do to be cleansed of our sin than to accept HIS free gift. I know I have sinned in my life, and I know there are probably things I have not asked for forgiveness for. However, that is the beauty of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. If we accept him as our Saviour then our sins are washed away!! I am not saying that we should become a Christian and go out and murder a bunch of people. Christ will also hold his children accountable. I firmly believe that if you are a child of God, and you are openly living a sinful life, with no repentance in sight, then I believe that God will take his children home.
And last but not least.....
You said:
"Meanwhile, if I were you I would be careful sharing heretical ideology with others and thus leading them away from reconcilation with God. That has eternal consequences attached to it and I sincerely hope that you wouldn't want those people who were led astray (by your heretical ideas) to miss heaven because of it."
The only people who will miss heaven are those who have not accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. PERIOD! The ONLY reconciliation with God is to accept His free gift of Salvation. That is how we reconcile with Christ! My message to people is a very simple message. Christ told us very clearly in Mark to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." That is not my "heretical idea". THAT is the great commandment!!
Well, I have stayed up way past my bedtime now, but as you can see, I am very passionate about the Gospel of Christ.
7:41 PM
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My brief reply (to be updated later today):
Hello Daniel,
Welcome to Talkwisdom! Sorry for the delay in replying, it's just that I have been extremely busy the last few days.
Thank you for your heartfelt comment. I can tell that this is a very sensitive subject for you. I want to give your comment my full attention, so I will reply very soon when I have more time.
David,
You are right. This topic always touches the nerves of those who are engaged in it and on opposite sides of the argument. This is probably why a majority of Christians just avoid it altogether.
I want to give your comment my full attention as well. Perhaps I can bring both of your comments up to a new blogpost later today and reply then.
One thing I want to clear up immediately. I am not saying that you are not a Christian, David. The truth is, only God and the individual person knows for sure. However, we ALL can claim to be something...including a Christian, without truly being one. That's just a sad fact in this fallen world.
You could say the same thing back to me, for instance, and I wouldn't be offended. What I would do next is back up my beliefs with the truth from Scripture.
When I make statements like that, I am trying to point out where a person's theology does not match up with what Scripture says. The Bible is the "plumb line" in determining truth from error. If we didn't have the absolute truth of the Bible to rely on, then anyone could skew Christian belief in any direction he/she chooses. When that (unfortunately) happens, heresy and apostasy come creeping in to negatively change true, Biblically-based Christian theology.
You wrote:
The only people who will miss heaven are those who have not accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. PERIOD! The ONLY reconciliation with God is to accept His free gift of Salvation. That is how we reconcile with Christ! My message to people is a very simple message. Christ told us very clearly in Mark to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel." That is not my "heretical idea". THAT is the great commandment!!
I do not see any need for the act of repentance in your statement. So I must ask you, what part does confession and repentance of sin play in the true Gospel of Jesus Christ?
7:40 AM
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I would invite any and all to join in this conversation. Some may think that it is "trivial" to argue over such things. Are you one of them? Or, do you see this as important because the eternal life and destination of each individual soul is at stake?
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