Monday, August 18, 2008

When Does a Baby Get Human Rights?

The title of my post today is what I thought was one of the most important questions asked at the Saddleback Civil Forum.

This morning, it was my initial intent to search around for some of the best articles that critique the answers given by Barack Obama and John McCain after Saturday's T.V. broadcast. I found this one and encourage everyone to read it.

However, I feel led to discuss what is heavy on my heart and has been in my thoughts over the past two days regarding the issue of the pro-life vs. pro-death (a.k.a. abortion) worldviews - which obviously separate these candidates.

I must ask a question. For those of you who have seen it, what did you think of Obama's answer to "at what point does a baby get human rights in your view" question?

Portion of transcript:

4 NOW, LET'S DEAL WITH ABORTION. 40 MILLION

5 ABORTIONS SINCE ROE V. WADE. YOU KNOW, AS A PASTOR I

6 HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ALL OF THE TIME. ALL OF THE

7 PAIN AND ALL OF THE CONFLICTS. I KNOW THIS IS A VERY

8 COMPLEX ISSUE. 40 MILLION ABORTIONS. AT WHAT POINT

9 DOES A BABY GET HUMAN RIGHTS IN YOUR VIEW?

Obama's answer:

10 A. WELL, I THINK THAT WHETHER YOU ARE LOOKING AT

11 IT FROM A THEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE OR A SCIENTIFIC

12 PERSPECTIVE, ANSWERING THAT QUESTION WITH SPECIFICITY,

13 YOU KNOW, IS ABOVE MY PAY GRADE
"Is above my [his] pay grade"???

Obama went on and on trying to justify THAT PARTICULAR ANSWER.

What are Talk Wisdom readers thoughts on his answer? What do you think he genuinely meant by that phrase? Do you think that came from his own thoughts or was it a line given to him by his campaign to use? I have my own thoughts about it, but will post it later.

I will mention one thing, however. How ironic is it that Obama shared his views at the forum that he sees child abuse (by parents) as an evil in the world; yet when asked about "when does a baby get human rights" he justifies killing children in the womb? Isn't that a logical inconsistency - especially when he professes to be a Christian? There were MANY inconsistencies in Obama's answers. Were you able to pick them out?

For anyone who wishes to view the forum videos, or, read the entire transcript, see links below.

Click on this link to view several videos of the event.

Click on this link to read the entire transcript.

Please share your thoughts about what you read (or viewed) about this event.

I thought that John McCain's Vietnam prisoner/guard story that was shared at the forum was very riveting. It gave me a better glimpse into his worldview and Christian faith.

Excerpt of John McCain's experience from the transcript:

20 A VIETNAMESE KEPT US IN PRISON IN CONDITIONS OF

21 SOLITAIRY CONFINEMENT FOR TWO OR THREE TO A CELL. THEY

22 DID THAT BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY COULD BREAK DOWN OUR

23 RESISTANCE. ONE OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT THEY USED TO GET

24 INFORMATION WAS TO TAKE ROPES AND TIE THEM AROUND YOUR

25 BICEPS, PULL YOUR BICEPS BEHIND YOU, LOOP THE ROPE AROUND


1 YOUR HEAD, PULL YOUR HEAD DOWN BETWEEN YOUR KNEES AND

2 LEAVE YOU IN THAT POSITION. YOU CAN MANAGE, IT'S VERY

3 UNCOMFORTABLE. ONE NIGHT I WAS BEING PUNISHED IN THAT

4 FASHION. ALL OF A SUDDEN THE DOOR OF THE CELL OPENED, THE

5 GUARD CAME IN, A GUY WHO WAS JUST WHAT WE CALL A GUN

6 GUARD. HE JUST WALKED AROUND THE CAMP WITH A GUN ON HIS

7 SHOULDER. HE WENT LIKE THIS AND THEN HE LOOSENED THE

8 ROPES. HE CAME BACK ABOUT FOUR HOURS LATER, HE TIGHTENED

9 THEM UP AGAIN AND LEFT. THE FOLLOWING CHRISTMAS, BECAUSE

10 IT WAS CHRISTMAS DAY, WE WERE ALLOWED TO STAND OUTSIDE OF

11 OUR CELL FOR A FEW MINUTES, AND THOSE DAYS WE WERE NOT

12 ALLOWED TO SEE OR COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER ALTHOUGH WE

13 CERTAINLY DID. AND I WAS STANDING OUTSIDE FOR MY FEW

14 MINUTES, OUTSIDE MY CELL. HE CAME WALKING UP. HE STOOD

15 THERE FOR A MINUTE AND WITH HIS HANDLE ON THE DIRT IN THE

16 COURTYARD HE DREW A CROSS AND HE STOOD THERE AND A MINUTE

17 LATER, HE RUBBED IT OUT AND WALKED AWAY. FOR A MINUTE

18 THERE, THERE WAS JUST TWO CHRISTIANS WORSHIPPING TOGETHER.

19 I'LL NEVER FORGET THAT MOMENT SO EVERY DAY ---


Personally, I thought that Rick Warren's non-reaction to this awesome story was quite insulting. Also, notice that he cut off John's answer!! Did he do that with Obama? I'm not sure. I haven't seen the entire video yet. But the segments that I did watch of Obama looked as though he was allowed to ramble on and on. So why was John McCain cut off??

Of course, I was glad about the next topic and John's excellent answer - and he received a HUGE round of applause from the audience, too!


20 Q ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO INTO THE TOUGH ONES. THAT

21 WAS JUST A GIMMIE. LET'S DEAL WITH ABORTION.

I, AS A 22 PASTOR, HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS ALL THE TIME, EVERY

23 DIFFERENT ANGLE, EVERY DIFFERENT PAIN, ALL THE DECISIONS

24 AND ALL OF THAT. 40 MILLION ABORTIONS SINCE ROE V WADE.

25 SOME PEOPLE WHO -- PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT LIFE BEGINS AT


1 CONCEPTION WOULD SAY THAT'S A HOLOCAUST FOR MANY PEOPLE.

2 AT WHAT POINT IS A BABY ENTITLED TO HUMAN RIGHTS?


John McCain's answer was absolute, truthful, and given without hesitation or excuses (unlike Obama's ):


3 A AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION. I HAVE A 25-YEAR

4 PRO LIFE RECORD IN THE CONGRESS, IN THE SENATE. AND AS

5 PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I WILL BE A PRO LIFE

6 PRESIDENT AND THIS PRESIDENCY WILL HAVE PRO LIFE POLICIES.

7 THAT'S MY COMMITMENT, THAT'S MY COMMITMENT TO YOU.


HT: Kingdom People

Online Newsroom

Doug Patton article

*******
Update at 11:05 a.m. PT -

I just located the "official Civil Forum" website and noticed what was written there:

The Saddleback Civil Forum series was established to promote civil discourse and the common good of all. The first forum, held during Passover week this year, featured five Jewish World War II Holocaust survivors sharing their stories. In September, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair will be featured.

Although Rick Warren’s primary calling is to proclaim the Gospel Truth of salvation in Jesus Christ, he created the Civil Forums to further three additional life goals: helping people accept responsibility, helping the Church regain credibility, and encouraging our society to return to civility.


Also, notice that there is NOTHING included in the "PEACE" plan with regards to the Great Commission command given by Jesus Christ before His ascension to the Father to "go into all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Notice that Jesus emphasizes "what I [He] has commanded you [us]!!"


Here is what purpose-driven Saddleback seems to think is more important:

Recognizing their far-reaching influence, the Warrens are working together, along with churches, businesses and NGOs, to mobilize 1 billion Christians to fight the five global giants of the world through The P.E.A.C.E. Plan –Promote reconciliation, Equip servant leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick and Educate the next generation.


This is all well and good. I am NOT CLAIMING THAT SUCH PROMOTION IS NOT GOOD. However, to NOT HAVE ANY MENTION of evangelism through the Gospel and PROMOTE REPENTANCE THROUGH THE Cross of Jesus Christ is certainly alarming!!!

It is reminiescent of the New Age goal to create a kind of utopia here on earth.

Jesus told us that we would always have the poor with us.

Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.


Of course it is a good thing to help the poor. However, what good is helping them physically if we are not sharing the Cross of Christ so that they will be saved and enter into eternity with God forever??

Jesus told us that in this world, we would have trouble.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Obviously, Jesus' emphasis is on the fact that he is King of kings, Lord of lords, and Savior of the entire world. He, and he alone has "overcome the world." Doesn't that indicate that evangelism through the Great Commission commandment is more important than any other endeavor that the Church does?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Good works come second, as a result of being saved!

What did Jesus emphasize as most important in this life?

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

11 comments:

Christinewjc said...

Update at 11:05 a.m. PT -

I just located the "official Civil Forum" website and noticed what was written there:

The Saddleback Civil Forum series was established to promote civil discourse and the common good of all. The first forum, held during Passover week this year, featured five Jewish World War II Holocaust survivors sharing their stories. In September, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair will be featured.

Although Rick Warren’s primary calling is to proclaim the Gospel Truth of salvation in Jesus Christ, he created the Civil Forums to further three additional life goals: helping people accept responsibility, helping the Church regain credibility, and encouraging our society to return to civility.


Also, notice that there is NOTHING included in the "PEACE" plan with regards to the Great Commission command given by Jesus Christ before His ascension to the Father to "go into all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Notice that Jesus emphasizes "what I [He] has commanded you [us]!!"


Here is what purpose-driven Saddleback seems to think is more important:

Recognizing their far-reaching influence, the Warrens are working together, along with churches, businesses and NGOs, to mobilize 1 billion Christians to fight the five global giants of the world through The P.E.A.C.E. Plan –Promote reconciliation, Equip servant leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick and Educate the next generation.

This is all well and good. I am NOT CLAIMING THAT SUCH PROMOTION IS NOT GOOD. However, to NOT HAVE ANY MENTION of evangelism through the Gospel and PROMOTE REPENTANCE THROUGH THE Cross of Jesus Christ is certainly alarming!!!

It is reminiescent of the New Age goal to create a kind of utopia here on earth.

Jesus told us that we would always have the poor with us.

Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

Of course it is a good thing to help the poor. However, what good is helping them physically if we are not sharing the Cross of Christ so that they will be saved and enter into eternity with God forever??

Jesus told us that in this world, we would have trouble.

Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Obviously, Jesus' emphasis is on the fact that he is King of kings, Lord of lords, and Savior of the entire world. He, and he alone has "overcome the world." Doesn't that indicate that evangelism through the Great Commission commandment is more important than any other endeavor that the Church does?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Good works come second, as a result of being saved!

What did Jesus emphasize as most important in this life?

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Christinewjc said...

Link: Saddleback Civil Forum

Carlotta said...

Christine, church was great Sunday because Pastor Miles used a portion of his sermon to talk about the forum. He gave the responses to both Obama and McCain on the question of when life begins and on the marriage amendment. You should have heard the moans of some of the congregation when he shared what Obama said about both topics. He also left the congregation to go home and do some research because he said that although both believe in Jesus Christ, he told us "one of them doesn't believe that Jesus is the ONLY way!" Again, some sounds of wonderment went through the crowd!

I think Miles help make the minds up of many of our young folk who had no inkling what Obama is truly about. It was very clever of Miles to preach about who to vote for without actually saying any names!

He was at that forum too, by the way!

As far as Rick Warren himself is concerned, I'm not too sure what to think of him. He is a brother in Christ and has a very strong statement of faith. (Saddleback statement of faith.) But he leaves me hungering to hear the gospel whenever I've seen him in public. But I won't put him in the same category as some of these pulpit pimps that we hear much about.

But I am wondering about him...

Christinewjc said...

Hi Carlotta,

My son and his female friend (on again - off again...long story!) went to that service, but I didn't get the chance to ask him about it. He went to the Padre game later in the day. Then he got up early for work, so I didn't get to see him. I'm going to "The Truth Project" tonight, so I will ask him about it when I get back.

Is the sermon up for viewing online yet? I'd like to see it!

At first, I really liked Warren's book, "The Purpose Driven Life." Then, when my former church family did a study on the book, I became alarmed (as did two other women leaders in the room) when the video of Warren saying the "prayer of salvation" did not include any mention of Christ dying on the cross for our sins - nor - did he specifically lead sinners towards the need to repent of their sins. He basically prayed for mercy and grace without repentance of sin. That's not the complete gospel! Why did he neglect to include Christ's sacrificial death on the cross for our sin in order to be reconciled back to God the Father in that prayer???

I was stunned!

Thanks for sharing Saddleback's website "statement of faith." It does have the complete gospel message on it, but in his videos and public appearances, Warren doesn't appear to emphasize the cross of Christ or the need for repentance for sin BEFORE asking Christ to be Lord and Savior.

You said it well -

"But he leaves me hungering to hear the gospel whenever I've seen him in public."

I think that he has been persuaded by "gospel lite, emergent church" leaders and listens to them more than he listens to, and follows, God's Word.

After doing the first "Purpose" study, my small group started the second one. Carlotta, it was very WEIRD! All of us noticed how skewed away from biblical Christianity it was and how obviously the next study resembled something closer to New Age, Universalist, Emergent Church beliefs all wrapped up in one big heretical error!

The fact that I had to add to Warren's video recorded "prayer of salvation" to include repentance of one's sins, and the propitiation action of Christ's death on the cross for sin was a red flag for me. Ever since, I have been finding out that Warren's twisting of Bible verses to suit "his own (purpose) book," rather than exegeting God's Word and HIS (God's) true meaning of the verses.

Ultimately, it would be such a shame if Warren's "earthly" success ends up leading thousands (if not millions) of people away from true salvation.

Carlotta said...

Yikes! You're right of the possibility of RW leading so many astray! I'll be very prayerful for this man of God who's very much in the public spotlight!

Pastor Miles has the audio up but not the video just yet of Sunday's message. Usually the video is up by Wednesday at the latest.

You need the video to see his crazy antics that went along with him talking about a cat named Chubby and his describing Michael Phelps wins! Miles will have you cracking up!

I always warn folks that Pastor Miles is straight silly! Lol! But boy does he get the message of God across!

Christinewjc said...

Heh heh heh...that's Miles! He has a great sense of humor and is amazing at interspersing humor into his Sunday morning messages.

He is not afraid of telling it like it is - either. His sermons are clearly presented and absolutely biblical. He points people towards Christ and includes the gospel message each time - no matter what venue he's in (recall his controversial "The Secret" appearance!) I loved what Tony Robbins (who also spoke there) said to him at the event...something like, 'nobody really believes that "Secret" stuff. It's just a bunch of bull!' Ha ha!!

This is what is needed today. Bold preachers who will tell the Truth of God's Word and share the gospel of Jesus Christ - without EVER apologizing for offending anyone because of it!

Carlotta, I attended the 7th session of "The Truth Project" last night. It was all about the "State" and how it's sphere of influence has been so badly skewed that we now have all of this chaos - especially here in CA! I plan to type out a post about it either today or tomorrow. I think that EVERY CHRISTIAN CHURCH and EVERY SMALL GROUP OF CHRISTIANS WHO MEET FOR BIBLE STUDY NEEDS TO TAKE THIS COURSE! IT IS THAT GOOD!!

There is so much "meat" in this study that I think going through it a second and even a third time would benefit anyone. That is why I am planning a group study to start in Sept.

I think that the "Truth Project" study could lead to an awesome TRUE Christian faith revival in this country! It is badly needed, too!

Carlotta said...

Wow Christine! I'm very interested in knowing more about this truth project.

I'll be waiting patiently for your post!

Christinewjc said...

You can view a brief trailer about it here.

I have also done a few posts on the sessions that I have already attended.

I plan to purchase the DVDs tomorrow and view the lessons I missed. Hopefully, I will get a group together to go through the course this Fall!

Tamela's Place said...

Once again another great post exposing the lies of the enemy and the truths of God. I love the scripture that says the righteous are as bold as lions. I wrote a post on that a couple of months ago, I titled it "Bold as a Lion" I was exposing the cowardliness that we see in an among those who call themselves Christians. And this should not be. I love coming to your site i have it on my blogroll keep on boldly proclaiming God's truths.. God bless you!

Wayne said...

In light of his history Obama History on Abortion and Infanticide (it is disturbing) I don't think he should be making the decision.

Matt W. said...

I know I'm late on this, but, just to add, for those who I hear from time to time saying the Bible isn't clear on this, from what mine says, I'm pretty sure the answer is, a baby has rights from "Before the foundation of the World." I think that's even a tad before conception...