Wednesday, September 13, 2006

Contrast Between Pharoah's and Job's Heart

The "hardening of Pharoah's heart" in Exodus is often a point of contention used by skeptics to vilify the God of the Bible. In my explanations and suggestions to read commentary about this portion of Scripture, I have noticed that the true message is often missed by non-believers simply because it is not an answer that appeals to their particular mindset. This is precisely what I saw happening during a written conversation that I am currently having with a skeptic.

The remainder of this post includes quoted portions of the commentary that he disliked.


2. How foolish it is for us to challenge God or the decisions of God when we are not in the same league, not even close to it.

3. The minute we say concerning God that He is not fair, we are declaring that there is unrighteousness with God. God forbid.

B. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion."

1. Mercy and compassion are not rights that we deserve or have coming.

2. They are favors bestowed.

3. That is why God can show mercy to whom ever He pleases.

4. God is sort of saying, "I am God I can do as I please." And you know what? He is quite right.


Pharoah's heart didn't even need extra hardening...he had enough of it on his own! (Kinda reminds me of someone I know!) But the fact remains that God had a purpose in Pharoah's "hardening of the heart."


C. God said Pharoah, "For this purpose have I raised you up that that I might show My power in thee that My name might be declared through all the earth."

1. God desired to put the fear of God and His people on the nations of the earth so He hardened the heart of Pharoah to pursue the children of Israel so that He might destroy the Egyptian army in the sea.

2. When the nations heard what God did to the Egyptian power, they all feared the power of God.


We can see from the above portion of the commentary, that God can work his ultimate purposes through the hardening of hearts of some. Pharoah had more than enough miracles and opportunities to believe in the God of Moses. But he chose to rebel and battle against Moses' God. For this, he experienced several judgments. We could view these as warnings from God to repent. But Pharoah wasn't about to repent any time soon. In fact, God knew that he never would. Therefore, his rebellious heart was used as an object lesson in biblical history as well as for God's eternal purposes.


D. If God has mercy on whoever He pleases, and hardens the heart of whoever He pleases, how can he find fault if He has hardened my heart to the gospel, how could I resist His will?

1. Again the insinuation is, "That isn't fair that God should harden a man's heart and then judge him for having a hard heart."

2. Again, who am I to judge God as to fairness, I do not know all the facts. My knowledge comes only from my limited observation, and incomplete understanding of the facts.


We see as through a glass darkly, and can only see part of the puzzle this side of heaven. I'm not claiming that I know all the purposes of God, but I do see and understand the purposes that He has revealed in His written Word; especially through His Living Word, Jesus Christ.

Skeptics often feel that they have the right to question God and His purposes. That is "their purpose," so to speak. They can be considered as the type of people who disses and challenges God for (what they perceive as) his "felonies" instead of humbly accepting that He is God and they are not.

Take note of Job's responses to all the problems he had (see book of Job). In the commentary, we get a glimpse of Job's attitude towards God:

JOB 33:13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

1. God does not owe you or me any explanation for the things that He does, and it is the height of impertinence to challenge Him.

2. Who am I to demand that God give to me a reason for His actions?

3. God said to Job,

JOB 40:2 Shall he that contends with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

JOB 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

4. Dare you to say or think that you are more righteous than God?



If you go to the very beginning of Job, we see how (and why) all the affliction upon Job started.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Skipping down to verse 6:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?


Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The verses in bold show the spiritual battle that was going on. Did you notice the bolded verses? Satan's challenge was, 'does Job fear God for nothing?' God's servant Job was used as an object lesson too; but with the triumph of obedience as the result. Satan (and, apparently Job's friends and wife) wanted Job to "curse God and die."

Whereas, God knew that Job's faithfulness wasn't dependant upon "all that he had" in a materialistic sense; nor even dependant upon "all he loved" in fact, because we see that family members died. His faith was stronger than that. He also was strong in humility, faithfulness, and reverence ("fear") despite illness and even death of family members! Job demonstated true, steadfast faith even in the midst of much suffering, pain and loss.

Satan, on the other hand, misjudged Job's faithfulness. He thought that in Job's afflictions, Job would "curse thee (God) to thy face." He also thought that the loss of material possessions and the death of loved ones would shake his faith and make him turn away from the LORD. But Job proved Satan wrong! His obedience and steadfast faith proved that such tools are the answer to defeating "the wiles of the devil."

Despite all that Job went through, it is important to note that Job didn't experience the worst of pain and loss. God the Father gave His Son, Jesus Christ, who suffered the worst pain imaginable, for our sakes. It wasn't only the physical suffering that he endured, it was the spiritual separation from the Father as he took on the sins of the world.

Even Job didn't have to suffer that.

When you keep the whole message of the Gospel in mind, the suffering, wars, deaths and consequences for disobedience make perfect sense. If it were not for the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross, we would be separated from God forever...all of us.

Thus, with the whole message of the Gospel in mind, we see that confession, repentance, mercy, grace and love are purposed by God for our benefit.

I know that skeptics will not believe all of this, but I, personally, am certain of it.

Why am I certain?

Because I know the answer that is revealed through the Bible to Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?"

21 comments:

limpy99 said...

I could quite possibloy be worng about this, but didn't God start smiting everything around Job because Satan basically dared him to test Job's faith? Again, I might be wrong about that, but if that is how the story goes, it seems to me that it would take an amazingly petty god to abuse a mortal just to show-up a fallen angel.

And credit where credit's due for rejecting the 9/11 conspiracy theories a couple of posts back.

Christinewjc said...

I think it was the other way around. God asked Satan if he has "considered my (God's) servant, Job. This was a test of Job's faith.

If you still think that this fact makes for "an amazingly petty god" as you stated, then so be it. However, because of the Fall of man, all of life is a test, Limpy99.

The moral of the story? Trust God in all things; the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's easy to be faithful while enjoying the good things in life, but more difficult when faced with the bad and the ugly.

We got what we asked for in the Garden of Eden. The knowledge of evil. Evil led to sin and sin to separation from God. We reap what we sow.

Jesus told us the bad news, "in this world you will have trouble."
But the rest of the verse gives us the hope we need, "but take heart, for I have overcome the world."

Job endured the suffering and remained faithful to God in the midst of it. Job was obedient to the end. In fact, in the end, he was even more blessed than before.

This could be regarded as a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ's obedience to God the Father's mission for man's salvation. Job didn't suffer to death, but he arose victorious and was even more blessed in the end.

In Jesus' case, he suffered unto death for the propitiation of the sins of mankind, but arose even more victorious as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in eternity. The death sentence for man's sin problem was satisfied by one extraordinary God-Man, Jesus Christ. He died with all sin placed upon his body so we wouldn't have to die with our own sins clinging to our own souls. His righteousness is imputed upon us the moment we are saved and Jesus becomes the Lord and Savior in our hearts.

About the conspiracy theories swarming around 9/11. I really think it is terrible. The urban legend webpage will probably end up having to expand it's myth-list a thousand times with all the false theories floating around the internet!

I first encountered several of them back in 2004, and that is how I found the myth-buster site. There is now an entire book on the subject. I wish people wouldn't fall for such things.

limpy99 said...

Scopes.com. Your key to debunking urban myths.

I'm going to reread Job just for kicks. That story always bugged me.

GMpilot said...

Oh, Christine, you make me feel so PROUD! That you would use my words to fuel your argument means they must be pretty solid.

Christine, quoting:
2. How foolish it is for us to challenge God or the decisions of God when we are not in the same league, not even close to it.
3. The minute we say concerning God that He is not fair, we are declaring that there is unrighteousness with God. God forbid.
B. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion."
1. Mercy and compassion are not rights that we deserve or have coming.
2. They are favors bestowed.
3. That is why God can show mercy to whom ever He pleases.
4. God is sort of saying, "I am God I can do as I please." And you know what? He is quite right.


2. I’ll come back to this one.
3. I know that the universe in general is ‘unfair’ and dispassionate. It ignores human needs and desires. But God is said to be the opposite of that. If he demonstrates that he is not, then it follows that there is ‘unrighteousness with God’. Sorry ‘bout that.
B1, 2, & 3. Yes, it’s true. Mercy and compassion are not rights that we deserve or have coming; they are favors bestowed. Now, just whom has he shown mercy to? Any God who would arrange to have his own son die is not likely to be merciful to humans, especially since they are the reason the death had to happen!
4. God can do as pleases. Apparently, what pleases him is to be an omnipotent five-year-old, who builds things (and people) up and smashes them at will, with no sense of responsibility whatever. A random universe would do the same, but this God is supposed to love us, the care about us, to know the number of hairs on our heads, and to have known us even before we were formed in our mothers’ wombs…or so he says. He seems to love individual humans, but hates humanity as a whole.
And, because he is all-powerful, we are expected to ‘reconcile’ ourselves to this.

Pharoah's heart didn't even need extra hardening...he had enough of it on his own! (Kinda reminds me of someone!) But the fact remains that God had a purpose in Pharoah's "hardening of the heart":

But you claimed in your other post that Pharaoh had hardened his own heart; now that I’ve pointed out to you that God did it, you’re claiming God had a ‘purpose’ in doing so. Are you now acknowledging that I was right after all?

We could view these as warnings from God to repent. But Pharoah wasn't about to any time soon. In fact, God knew that he never would. Therefore, his rebellious heart was used as an object lesson in biblical history as well as for God's eternal purposes.

As I’d said: God set Pharaoh up. He was just another toy to be played with, and cast aside when God tired of it.

Christine, quoting again:
D. If God has mercy on whoever He pleases, and hardens the heart of of whoever He pleases, how can he find fault if He has hardened my heart to the gospel, how could I resist His will?
1. Again the insinuation is, "That isn't fair that God should harden a man's heart and then judge him for having a hard heart."
2. Again, who am I to judge God as to fairness, I do not know all the facts. My knowledge comes only from my limited observation, and incomplete understanding of the facts.


D. That’s a very good question. Too bad he answers it with, “I don’t know all the facts, but he’s God, so I’m sure he must be doing the right thing for the right reason.” But the very same thing could have been said about Stalin and those people who disappeared into the gulags. Such reasoning turns men into slaves, by their own consent.
This, BTW, encompasses the statement made in #2.

We see as through a glass darkly, and can only see part of the puzzle this side of heaven. I'm not claiming that I know all the purposes of God…

Well, you certainly claimed to know this one! Keep trying!

Now, you, GM, feel that you have the right to question God and His purposes. That is "your purpose," so to speak, at this message board and on my blog. You are more likely the type of person who disses and challenges God for his "felonies" instead of humbly accepting that He is God and you are not.

Oh, but I do accept that. I just don’t believe he is accepting his responsibilities as Absolute Lord of the Universe©. Christians proclaim a thousand times a week that he watches over us, that he loves us, that he wants us all by his side; but a casual look around shows that just isn’t so. A leader owes some accountability to his people; those who don’t give it don’t stay leaders very long. Is God any different?

We all know the story of Job, and how Satan ruined his livelihood, destroyed his household, and afflicted him with disease, and how God let him do it…just to win a bet he KNEW he couldn’t lose. And you worship this guy?!

I know that you don't believe all of this GM, but I, personally, am certain of it. Why am I certain? Because I know the answer that is revealed through the Bible to Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?"

Peter answered, “Thou art the Christ”, and Jesus replied “Tell no man that thing” (if Mark 8 is to be believed).

…all of life is a test, Limpy99.

So all this Bible stuff means you’re crammin’ for the finals, right?

Have a good day.

limpy99 said...

Christine writes

"Despite all that Job went through, it is important to note that Job didn't experience the worst of pain and loss. God the Father gave His Son, Jesus Christ, who suffered the worst pain imaginable, for our sakes. It wasn't only the physical suffering that he endured, it was the spiritual separation from the Father as he took on the sins of the world.

Even Job didn't have to suffer that."

Well, actually, yes he did. Satan sends a wind storm, with God's permission, against the house where all ten of Job's children, (7 sons and 3 daughters), are gathered. They're all killed, and for a far lesser purpose than God sacrificed his son.

I read the first part of Job last night. I stopped when Job's friends come over; they get a bit wordy.

My problem with Job, and where I disagree with you, is probably best summed up when Jod remonstrates his wife, saying they shouldn't only expect good things from God and never bad. But in this case God is actively working against Job by allowing Satan to take away everything he has and inflict various sufferings on him, limiting this only by saying, "oh, but don't kill him." His kids, his health, his livelihood are all fair game, but spare his life. Gee, thanks.

I understand this is a fable about faith, but from my persepctive this is a two way straight. If there's an omnipotent being out there who wants me to worship him, if he wants true worship I expect him not to screw around with me, and to rise above a petty feud with his rival and allow his rival to screw around with me just to prove a point. I certainly don't expect God to hand me the winning Powerball numbers, (although if anyone's listening I'm not gonna say no to that), but I do expect him to keep from deliberately inflicting harm on me and mine just for sport.

I also think this story serves those critics who call Christianity a slave religion. Here we have a devoted follower inflicted with all sorts of harms, and when his friends, and to a lesser extent him, start to raise questions, they are confronted with an angry and more powerful force who says "How dare you question me!! I am powerful. I can crush you." And when they apologize they are rewarded.

All in all, it's just not a position I'm prepared to accept.

Now, if I win Powerball next week I may reconsider...

limpy99 said...

Uh, "two way street", not "straight"

Christinewjc said...

Limpy99: "I also think this story serves those critics who call Christianity a slave religion. Here we have a devoted follower inflicted with all sorts of harms, and when his friends, and to a lesser extent him, start to raise questions, they are confronted with an angry and more powerful force who says "How dare you question me!! I am powerful. I can crush you." And when they apologize they are rewarded."

You hit on a couple of important points here. Within the midst of God's economy (meaning, Theologically: the divine plan for humanity, from creation through redemption to final beatitude), we were originally given free will to choose only goodness and God or, the knowledge of good and evil. Throughout history, we see man's tendency to choose to do evil. We know the temptor behind this is Satan. We either choose to follow God and his commandments or succomb to Satan's tempting, (or, in this case, affliction) upon us. Job remained faithful to God despite what was happening to him physically. The battle behind the scenes shows us that there is a spiritual battle going on and the souls of men are the victorious prize, so to speak.

Who was the "inflictor" in Job's suffering? Satan.

Yes. God allowed these things to happen to Job, (just as he allowed Adam and Eve the choice to sin,) but he wasn't the cause of the infliction (or the sin).

Job continued to trust God no matter what happened. That is true faith. A faith that lasts only when things are going well is superficial.

Jesus talked about superficial faith in the parable of the sower.

If you will notice, the friends of Job thought that Job's affliction was due to sin in his life. In fact, it was an outward attack from Satan. I'm sure that Satan was pleased with the 'friends' conclusions because it fit right in line with his objective...to get Job to "curse God and die." Satan is known as the prince of darkness and the prince of falsehood. He's happy to let people believe that "it's their own fault(s)" when it comes to accusing the saints. Satan is described as an accuser, a liar, and a tempter. We see him lying, distorting truth, we see him involved in temptation.

R.C. Sproul informs us:

"Now, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin so that we will recognize it and repent of it. If we're troubled about some sin, it could be the Holy Spirit's work, or it could be Satan accusing us. How do we know the difference? Basically we know that there's something sweet and positive about the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit's goal is to bring us to our senses. He humbles us, he brings us to a contrite heart, but he doesn't annihilate us. Satan seeks to drive us to despair. Our hopelessness and destruction are his goal and one of his primary methods toward that goal is accusation."

We know that Satan's goal in the afflictions of Job was to get him to turn away from God. Despite the pain and suffering, Job refused to succomb to Satan's temptation and accusations. Even when Satan used the 'friends' and Job's wife in the form of accusers, Job wasn't fooled.

Scripture tells us in 1 Peter 5:8 that Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking to devour whom he will. Yet, the other image we get is of him fleeing with his "tail between his legs" when the Scriptures tell us that if we resist him, he will depart from us. Here we need the armor of God, the Word of God, and the application of that Word through the power of the Spirit, and we have the promise that Satan will flee.

Look at the end result for Job. His faith was tested "through the fire" so to speak, but he stayed strong and endured it because he trusted God throughout.

Back to your post.
You said, "... start to raise questions, they are confronted with an angry and more powerful force who says "How dare you question me!! I am powerful. I can crush you." And when they apologize they are rewarded."

You must realize that the arguments of the friends failed to convince Job. But when confronted with the the great power and majesty of God as he spoke out of a mighty storm, Job fell in humble reverence before God - speechless. God rebuked Job's friends, and the drama ended with Job restored to happiness and wealth.

The purpose of this book of Job is to demonstrate God's sovereignty and the meaning of true faith. It addresses the question, "Why do the righteous suffer?"

When Job was restored, he finally learned that when nothing else was left, he had God, and that was enough. Through suffering, we learn that God is enough for our lives and our future. We must love God regardless of whether he allows blessing or suffering to come to us. Testing is difficult, but the result is often a deeper relationship with God (I have experienced this, first hand, several times!)

In speaking of Abraham's faith, we see that God "counted it to him for righteousness."

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Today, belief and faith in the Messiah, Jesus Christ is "accounted to us (believers) for righteousness."

We can't be righteous on our own! For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Even Job wasn't perfect. He was called, "upright and blameless," and was obviously very strong in his faith in God, but he was a sinner just like everyone else. Only Jesus Christ lived a sinless life. Therefore, only he could take away the sins of the world. We either die with our own sins on our own souls or we die with the covering through the righteousness of Christ through repentance and salvation.

I don't claim to know all the answers, but I share what is revealed to me through the Scriptures. In reality, only God knows exactly why things happen as they do, and we must submit to him as our Sovereign. The book of Job informs us that we should emulate him and decide to trust God no matter what happens.

Those who endure the testing of their faith will experience God's great rewards in the end.

limpy99 said...

"Yes. God allowed these things to happen to Job, (just as he allowed Adam and Eve the choice to sin,) but he wasn't the cause of the infliction (or the sin)."

I can't agree with this statement. By allowing these things to happen, God is as much a cause of Job's suffering as is Satan. While I understand your point about Satan testing people and people having free will, I don't see that as the case here. Poor old Job is just going along, doing exactly what he's supposed to do, and all of a sudden he starts getting hit from all sides with these horrible calamaties. Yes, Satan is the one doing the actual smiting, but he's doing it with God's permission.

As I go through life, the most important thing I think people can do is keep their committments to those who rely on them. Personally or professionally, if I tell you I will do something I will do my best to get it done. If a person were to come up to me and say "Your wife and kids only love you because you don't smack them around", am I within my rights to say, "I'll show you" and start beating them? No, absolutely not. And if I'm Job, don't I have the right to expect a little more from a deity to whom I've fulfilled all of my obligations?

I would accept your interpretation in the event that Satan was tempting Job, say with better land or more cattle, in an effort to lead him into sin or whatever, but I can't accept it when Satan is killing Job's children with a free pass from God.

GMpilot said...

Christine: ”The battle behind the scenes shows us that there is a spiritual battle going on and the souls of men are the victorious prize, so to speak.”

Is that so? Well, now…would you treasure a prize if someone just walked up, fell to their knees, and gave it to you? Yeah, didn’t think so. If you’re like most people, you’d rather earn your reward.
Always assuming these two supernatural giants exist, and want our souls for their own purposes, I say let ‘em work for it. This story puts them both in a bad light; we’re better off without them! They played poor Job like a chess piece, but with less respect.

You won’t listen to my arguments: that’s a given. However, when someone else like limpy99 points out the same thing (and better than I did), perhaps you should re-examine those arguments.

”Who was the "inflictor" in Job's suffering? Satan.

Yes. God allowed these things to happen to Job, (just as he allowed Adam and Eve the choice to sin,) but he wasn't the cause of the infliction (or the sin).”


Of course he was! Did he put the Tree of Life in an unreachable place? Did he place an angel to guard the Tree before A&E ate from it, or to act as a serpent detector? Whose garden was it anyway? If it belonged to Adam and Eve, one could understand such oversights. But this was God’s garden, and his responsibility. He, as you say, allowed the serpent to get in. No serpent = no temptation.

”The purpose of this book of Job is to demonstrate God's sovereignty and the meaning of true faith. It addresses the question, ’Why do the righteous suffer?’”

No, the purpose of the book of Job is to demonstrate what was described by you in an earlier post in this thread, words you brought into this:

”B. God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion."
1. Mercy and compassion are not rights that we deserve or have coming.
2. They are favors bestowed.
3. That is why God can show mercy to whom ever He pleases.
4. God is sort of saying, "I am God I can do as I please." And you know what? He is quite right.”


The ‘mercy’ God showed Job was forbidding Satan to kill him. He did not extend this to Job’s family, as they weren’t part of the bet. (A proper apologetic would have said that God knew Job’s family would have done something really wicked if they’d been allowed to live, so this was kind of a pre-emptive strike.)

”I don't claim to know all the answers, but I share what is revealed to me through the Scriptures. In reality, only God knows exactly why things happen as they do, and we must submit to him as our Sovereign. The book of Job informs us that we should emulate him and decide to trust God no matter what happens.”

Such modesty…
I have mentioned above what was revealed to me through the Scriptures. It was not exactly the picture of a God deserving of worship.

Now, of course, you’ve moved the goalposts again. You started this thread with references to Pharaoh, and when you were stymied there, moved over to Job. As I said, you do dance rather well.

Christinewjc said...

GMpilot,

No "goal post" moving needed here, GM.

I didn't forget about Pharoah and the "hardening of his heart" verses. In fact, I did some concordance research and found that the Hebrew words from the passages are not all exactly the same. The concordance definitions of the Hebrew words often contain a more expanded meaning than what the English language would consider as "hardened."

Here are several English dictionary meanings for the word "hardened."

hard‧ened  /ˈhɑrdnd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahr-dnd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. made or become hard or harder.
2. pitiless; unfeeling.
3. firmly established or unlikely to change; inveterate: a hardened criminal.
4. inured; toughened: a hardened trooper.
5. rigid; unyielding: a hardened attitude.
6. (of a missile base) equipped to launch missiles from underground silos.
7. (of a missile) capable of being launched from an underground silo.



[Origin: 1325–75; ME; see harden, -ed2]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source hard·en (h䲼IMG alt="" src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif" height="22" width="4" align="bottom">dn) Pronunciation Key
v. hard·ened, hard·en·ing, hard·ens
v. tr.
To make hard or harder.
To enable to withstand physical or mental hardship.
To make unfeeling, unsympathetic, or callous: “To love love and not its meaning hardens the heart in monstrous ways” (Archibald MacLeish).
To make sharp, as in outline.
To protect (nuclear weapons) by surrounding with earth or concrete.

v. intr.
To become hard or harder.
To rise and become stable. Used of prices.
To become inured.

Synonyms: harden, acclimate, acclimatize, season, toughen
These verbs mean to make resistant to hardship, especially through continued exposure: was hardened to frontier life; is acclimated to the tropical heat; was acclimatized by long hours to overwork; became seasoned to life in prison; toughened by experience.

(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source
hardened

adj 1: used of persons; emotionally hardened; "faced a case-hardened judge" [syn: case-hardened, hard-boiled] 2: made hard or flexible or resilient especially by heat treatment; "a sword of tempered steel"; "tempered glass" [syn: tempered, treated, toughened] [ant: untempered] 3: made tough by habitual exposure; "hardened fishermen"; "a peasant, dark, lean-faced, wind-inured"- Robert Lynd; "our successors...may be graver, more inured and equable men"- V.S.Pritchett [syn: enured, inured] 4: converted to solid form (as concrete) [syn: set]

WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


Now, contrast that with the Hebrew words: "chazaq," "quashah," "kabed," and "kabad." It would take some work, but seeing which word was used in each verse might further explain the passages more clearly.

For example, the Hebrew word chazaq is used in Exodus 9:12 -

2388 chazaq khaw-zak' a primitive root; to fasten upon; hence, to seize, be strong (figuratively, courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer:--aid, amend, X calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage(-ous, -ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengthen (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong(-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.


2389 chazaq khaw-zawk' from 2388; strong (usu. in a bad sense, hard, bold, violent):--harder, hottest, + impudent, loud, mighty, sore, stiff(-hearted), strong(-er).


In Exodus 8:15 the Hebrew word used is kabed

3513 kabad kaw-bad' or kabed {kaw-bade'}; a primitive root; to be heavy, i.e. in a bad sense (burdensome, severe, dull) or in a good sense (numerous, rich, honorable; causatively, to make weighty (in the same two senses):--abounding with, more grievously afflict, boast, be chargeable, X be dim, glorify, be (make) glorious (things), glory, (very) great, be grievous, harden, be (make) heavy, be heavier, lay heavily, (bring to, come to, do, get, be had in) honour (self), (be) honourable (man), lade, X more be laid, make self many, nobles, prevail, promote (to honour), be rich, be (go) sore, stop.



3515 kabed kaw-bade' from 3513; heavy; figuratively in a good sense (numerous) or in a bad sense (severe, difficult, stupid):--(so) great, grievous, hard(-ened), (too) heavy(-ier), laden, much, slow, sore, thick.



Lastly, I will just point out that Exodus 9:12 is often described in this way:

"God gave Pharoah many opportunities to heed Moses' warnings. But finally God seemed to say, "All right, Pharoah, have it your way," and Pharoah's heart became permanently hardened. Did God intentionally harden Pharoah's heart and overrule his free will? No, he simply confirmed that Pharaoh freely chose a life of resisting God. Similarly, after a lifetime of resisting God, you may find it impossible to turn to him."

Moral of the story: Continually ignore God's voice, eventually you will be unable to hear it at all.

Christinewjc said...

Limpy99 said, "As I go through life, the most important thing I think people can do is keep their committments to those who rely on them."

God did keep to His commitment to send us a Savior. That act was the most reliable in history; topped by no one else but Jesus Christ.

Limpy99 said, "I would accept your interpretation in the event that Satan was tempting Job, say with better land or more cattle, in an effort to lead him into sin or whatever, but I can't accept it when Satan is killing Job's children with a free pass from God."

Not to put words into your mouth, but from what I gather from your posts you most likely believe in evolution rather than Creation. In evolution, our children are considered "belonging exclusively to us" because as the parents we gave birth to them. In Creation, and according to God's Word, our children are not our own; they are "on loan" to us on this earth for they ultimately belong to God. From your perspective, God's "killing them and taking them" is likly viewed as an unexplained 'felony'. From the Christian believer's perspective (which is established by and through God's Word), it could be viewed as either a judgment (upon the children...lets say if they were older and rebellious) or, if they were not of age yet, they are saved anyway. If older and they turned to God before dying, it could be viewed as an unexplained mercy (for their sakes).

The ultimate testing of Job's faith was not that he lost his wealth, children, and health. His greatest trial was not being able to understand why God allowed him to suffer. Of course Job grieved deeply, but he didn't stop trusting God because of these losses.

Job passed the test and proved that people can love God for who he is, not for what he gives (which would be a superficial kind of faith).

Suffering can be, but is not always, a penalty for sin. In the same way, prosperity is not always a reward for being good. Those who love God are not exempt from trouble. Although we may not be able to understand fully the pain we experience, it can lead us to rediscover God.

Job focused on God. Job showed the kind of trust we are to have. When everything is stripped away, we are to recognize that God is all we ever really had. (Many hurricane Katrina victims can testify to rediscovering God after that tragedy.)

We should not demand that God explain everything (if He did, then there would be no need for faith on this earth!). God gives us himself, but not all the details of his plans. But the Bible tells us enough; all that we need to know for reconciliation back unto God, which results in the salvation of our souls. We must remember that this life, with all it's pain, is not our final destiny.

Dying is not the worst thing in this life. The worst thing is dying without Christ.

Limpy99, It appears to me that most of what I share isn't about to change your mind anytime soon. However, one day, perhaps you could go back and read Job with the purpose of emulating him and decide to trust God no matter what happens in life.

limpy99 said...

Um, yeah, I do regard muy kids as mine. That's sort of non-negotiable with me.

I'm not trying to change your mind Christine, you obviously have your faith and it's very important to you. But I do enjoy an interesting debate and the story of Job certianly provides that. We clearly have different takes on it.

Your philosophy seems to be if God said it, then I will follow it, and that's fine for you. And if I'm worng on that, feel free to correct me. Mine is different; if anyone or anything wants my respect, they have to earn it. I expect I'd have to earn theirs as well. That may sound narcissitic, I certainly don't mean it that way. Such approaches obviously lead to different takes on Job; such is life.

GMpilot said...

Christine: ”I didn't forget about Pharoah and the "hardening of his heart" verses. In fact, I did some concordance research and found that the Hebrew words from the passages are not all exactly the same. The concordance definitions of the Hebrew words often contain a more expanded meaning than what the English language would consider as "hardened."

Here are several English dictionary meanings for the word ‘hardened’…”


I think we can safely eliminate these:

6. (of a missile base) equipped to launch missiles from underground silos.
7. (of a missile) capable of being launched from an underground silo.


and these:

To make sharp, as in outline.
To protect (nuclear weapons) by surrounding with earth or concrete.


and this:

v. intr.
To become hard or harder.
To rise and become stable. Used of prices.
To become inured.

Synonyms: harden, acclimate, acclimatize, season, toughen
These verbs mean to make resistant to hardship, especially through continued exposure: was hardened to frontier life; is acclimated to the tropical heat; was acclimatized by long hours to overwork; became seasoned to life in prison; toughened by experience.


We both know that Pharaoh was not seasoned by or acclimated to what the God of the Hebrews was doing to his people.

You said that in Exodus 8:15 the actual word used was “kabed”. Now, did Mr. Kupelian (or whomever you consulted) give us the actual context of that word? If so, please reproduce it here; I’m sure we’d all like to read it. As for that last quote:

"God gave Pharoah many opportunities to heed Moses' warnings. But finally God seemed to say, "All right, Pharoah, have it your way," and Pharoah's heart became permanently hardened. Did God intentionally harden Pharoah's heart and overrule his free will? No, he simply confirmed that Pharaoh freely chose a life of resisting God. Similarly, after a lifetime of resisting God, you may find it impossible to turn to him."

That’s very interesting. Now, reading the scriptures themselves, did God say he would confirm that Pharaoh chose a life of resisting God, or did he say, I the Lord, will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and show him that to mess with my people is a Bad Thing?
Not sure? Hey, you’re the one with the certificate in Apologetics: a quick rereading of Exodus should set you straight. But I can assure you that that warning line is nowhere implied in the text.

You may not have needed to move the goalposts, but you’ve sure tried!

Christinewjc said...

Limpy99,

Wanting the kind of respect that you are looking for from God is sort of like the pot telling the potter how it should be made.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.

Jeremiah's verse shows us that sometimes the "pot" needs refashioning.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].

Now, I know that GMpilot will probably come along and say something like, "since the pot was marred in the hand of the potter, it's his fault."

But notice. The pot was not marred at the hand of the potter, it states that it was marred in; the symbolism meaning that the pot (nation of Israel) was marred because of the freewill choice they made to sin and disobey God's Word. But despite that, they were still in God's hands of protection to fulfill the promises, if, and when, they would repent and turn back to Him. The same could be said of each individual today, who turns to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

I am planning on doing a post on discipline and the role it takes in the love and justice of God. In the following verses, we get a glimpse of the purpose of discipline and why it is often necessary.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Elsewhere, we read that God is not a respecter of persons.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Proverbs tells us why.

Pro 24:23 These [things] also [belong] to the wise. [It is] not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Pro 28:21 To have respect of persons [is] not good: for for a piece of bread [that] man will transgress.

Justice requires that those who do wrong receive "for the wrong which they had done."

Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The purpose for discipline.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Once born again, believers cannot be snatched out of his hands.

Our thoughts are not His thoughts.

His ways are not our (or my) ways.

This is why the cross of Christ is often a stumbling block to non-believers.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

The reason this is so is because we are separated spiritually from Him because of the Fall.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


It is only when we are each individually born again in Christ that our thoughts begin to match up, so to speak, with His. Prior to this, much of God's Word can seem very foreign in the eyes of the non-believer. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who reveals the truth of the Scriptures to us, it's almost like we are reading another language without the training for full understanding of what we are reading.

I have found that many agnostics, atheists, and skeptics often claim to have "read the whole Bible." But what have they gleaned from the Word?

Instead of comprehending the love of God from the poetic sections, and the salvation promises of the gospel through Jesus Christ, they point out perceived "errors" ad nauseum that don't affect the truth of the gospel at all. Most of the so-called "errors" are easily solved with continued research and study. They often blame God for all the evil and suffering in the world. They forget why evil entered into the world in the first place. If God were to "wipe out all evil" so we could have heaven on earth now, then the people who aren't saved would be wiped out right along with it. This is why God is longsuffering, as believers are, because like Him, we desire that no one would perish. But the hardened hearts of some will refuse to repent. They will ultimately get what they want. Separation from God for all eternity.

There are Bible difficulties, but no errors. The error is often in our own fallible judgments and/or understandings of what we are reading. This is why the Holy Spirit's leading is crucial! It is also why we need God's Word as the ultimate source for absolute truth. Scripture interprets Scripture. Sola Scriptura takes away any denominational human-made traditions that could skew what the Bible is telling us.

We have archaeological finds that support what the Bible has revealed. The more recent finds have crushed the scoffing of skeptics who, hundreds of years ago, felt that the Bible had an error regarding the existence of certain peoples or places back then. The Bible's truth is reiterated by what emerges from excavations in the Holy Land.

Sorry. Didn't mean to get so far off topic. I think I'm already getting into my next post here!

I'm glad that you find the discussion interesting and I hope that means that you will stick around and continue in conversation. We may not convince each other of our beliefs, but it's good to share them anyway. Who knows where it may lead and who might be affected by our conversations (hopefully, positively towards Christ!) for all eternity!

Mark said...

If God is responsible for the evil we choose to do, then are we not as parents also responsible for the evil our adult children choose to do?

We all know in advance that everyone will do some form of evil, like lying, insulting others etc.. We could choose get ourselves sterilized and not have children. A thought: We're in the same boat as God: we know evil will occur by our bringing children into the world, and we are able to prevent this, but we don't. Yet we don't hold the parents of adults responsible for what their children choose to do.

Did God create evil?
Isaiah 45:7
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.


anothe verse limmy and gipilot might consider.
Romans 9: 21-24
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

GMpilot said...

murk: If God is responsible for the evil we choose to do, then are we not as parents also responsible for the evil our adult children choose to do?

We all know in advance that everyone will do some form of evil, like lying, insulting others etc.. We could choose get ourselves sterilized and not have children. A thought: We're in the same boat as God: we know evil will occur by our bringing children into the world, and we are able to prevent this, but we don't. Yet we don't hold the parents of adults responsible for what their children choose to do.“


Here we see Christian rationalization at its finest.
Yes, we know as parents that our children will commit some sort of evil. But we are always expected to lead our children by example. God’s not exactly famous for that.
The parents of famous (and infamous) people often do not know the destiny of their children. God doesn’t have that alibi: he knows. He knew long before that person’s great-great-grandmother was born! Way back in, say, 1564, God knew some infant named Jonas Salk would grow up to become one of the great doctors in history; and he also knew that 400 years later, another infant named Mohammed Atta would be born, and knew exactly what he would do.
No doubt both these men were acting in accordance with “God’s Plan”. Christians often proclaim they know of the existence of this Plan, yet cannot describe it, nor tell us its purpose.

”anothe verse limmy and gipilot might consider.
Romans 9: 21-24”


That’s four verses, murk. But let’s consider them anyway.

”21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?”
Sure, but since, as Christine notes, “God’s thoughts are not our thoughts”, how do we know which vessel is for ‘honorable use’ and which isn’t?

”22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
He can ‘endure’ as much as he wishes. Unlike us, he is said to be eternal. Besides, he knows what the payoff will be: “The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4) So, there’s no “if” about it.

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
In addition to making known the agonies of his wrath upon the vessels he prepared beforehand for destruction…

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Didn’t Jesus say he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel? Didn’t the Jews reject him?
Preaching to the Gentiles didn’t begin in earnest until after the Resurrection, and obviously, Jesus himself wasn’t doing it. I guess that’s why Jews have suffered for many centuries at the hands of Christians—they’d rejected the Word. Obviously God feels it’s okay for some of his children to kill some of his other children.
What would you think of a human parent who allowed that to happen?

Mark said...

gmpilot,
Your right! I must re think this whole God thing. thanks.
Murk

GMpilot said...

Now that you've gotten both mine and limpy99's name right, you're well on your way to changing your whole perspective, mark.

Thank you!
GMpilot

Christinewjc said...

Hi Mark,

GMpilot is awfully sensitive when it comes to the misspelling of his screen name. I have been the subject of his ire on that in the past.

Do:
GMpilot

Don't:
Gmpilot
gMpilot
GMPilot
GMPILOT
etc.

But wait! The "I power blogger" site only posts screen names in lower case!

gmpilot! Oh noooooo!!!!!! :-O

Horrors! :-#

It's sacrilege! :-(

;-)

Mark said...

Hi Christine, with a capital C

But we are always expected to lead our children by example. God’s not exactly famous for that

after I read that I got all tickled :) and became worthless as far as commenting..God knows I can't type well much less spell.

limpy99 and GMPilot's correct spelling and capitalization would only be found on their respective blog profile. I researched that. :)

Now I am off to tell God why He irritates me once again. I hope I get what Job got! :) minus all that suffering...lol

God Bless!

GMpilot said...

mark: ”God knows I can't type well much less spell.”

Well, now I know it too. ^_^

BTW. You may want to ask Christine about a guy named Gandhi, whom she wrote about…