The following is a copy of the post and some of the comments there. A blogger named "alcari" apparently took offense towards a former Talk Wisdom post entitled Their Own Consciences Testify.
Here we go! I have blotted out the curse words. Didn't want to subject my readers to a link to their LGBT CULT OF CONFUSION!
Christine
*******
Meh Fundie!
Italicized portion taken from my original blog post:
It is also "written on our hearts." In our heart of hearts, not matter what the homosexual agenda tries to push on us, WE KNOW that same-sex sexual behavior is a sin and an abomination to God. The fact that certain people refuse to recognize that fact does not change the truth. As Roman 2:15 informs us - their thoughts will either accuse or excuse them!
The gay christian movement is in the business of excusing themselves. They have chosen "to exchange the truth for a lie."
And, what's more, they will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to attempt to cover their sin and excuse themselves rather than what is truly needed - repentance! Why? Because whether one admits it or not, one's own conscience and God's Word accuses them.
ChristineWJC, Her "Talk Wisdom" blog [Comments (16)] [2008-Aug-30]
Submitted by GreenEyedLilo
Rat of Steel
#697502
2008-Aug-30 07:30 PM
"WE KNOW that same-sex sexual behavior is a sin and an abomination to God."
In the immortal words of the Lone Ranger's sidekick, Tonto:
"What do you mean 'WE', paleface?"
RavenWood
#697512
2008-Aug-30 07:36 PM
Sounds like Her "Talk Bulls**t."
Panz
#697519
2008-Aug-30 07:37 PM
We know?
Um, no, you don't, you THINK and BELIEVE according to cherry picking from your FAITH...
"And, what's more, they will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to attempt to cover their sin and excuse themselves rather than what is truly needed - repentance!"
Wait, isn't this like Christianity in a nutshell?
aaa
#697528
2008-Aug-30 07:42 PM
Whine...
Old Viking.
#697630
2008-Aug-30 08:21 PM
Couldn't you choose another abomination -- obstreperous children, non-virgin brides -- for a change of pace? Just for a while, mind you.
Xotan
#697633
2008-Aug-30 08:24 PM
The day Christians extend tolerance to others, and start minding their own business, and stop looking at what is going on in others' bedrooms, is the day they should be tolerated. Until then, they should be whacked three times on each ear morning, noon and night with a wet tea towel.
This cow is a steaming pile of barf and sick.
#697646
2008-Aug-30 08:36 PM
i really would like to know what the **** the gay "agenda" is, being accepted and treated as people with emotions? oh ok..
IanC
#697721
2008-Aug-30 09:45 PM
We?
Oh no. Not we. Just some
Fishcakes
#697746
2008-Aug-30 10:00 PM
In my heart of hearts, I know that there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with homosexuality, that love is love, and hell, we need MORE love in the world today, and who are we to say who others can and cannot love?
#697761
2008-Aug-30 10:11 PM
@Fishcakes: Right on.
GreenEyedLilo
#697788
2008-Aug-30 10:26 PM
@Old Viking: I wouldn't wish this nonsense on a non-virgin bride or any child.
She tries to make us sound like cats in the litterbox or something. But no "God" accuses me. It's God's little helpers, like Christine, who try to accuse me and other LGBTs, and the thing is, the "crime" isn't a bad thing at all. The "crime" is a just-fine thing that can sometimes be really good!
alex77
#697797
2008-Aug-30 10:31 PM
I still have hope (if he exists) that God is Love. Have a nice day. And please try to "Love thy neighbour" just once.
Jay-Sus
#697805
2008-Aug-30 10:39 PM
Talk Wisdom could not be more wrong.
Allegory for Jesus
#697830
2008-Aug-30 10:52 PM
"I feel it in gut that they are icky!" is not a very good argument. Just FYI.
"They have chosen "to exchange the truth for a lie." "
Oh...and you haven't? I assume that you couldn't have possibly done so, since you have "wisdom" in your blog title. You are obviously immune to such oversights, right?
"And, what's more, they will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to attempt to cover their sin and excuse themselves rather than what is truly needed"
Repent for being a woman NOW!! Do it! Yeah. Not exactly fun to be forced to repent for something that isn't your choice, and isn't morally wrong from your view, now is it?
ID82
#697837
2008-Aug-30 10:54 PM
What is this agenda that they speak of?
Reverend Jeremiah
#697966
2008-Aug-31 12:59 AM
Hey **** face.. a homosexuals conscience doesnt accuse them..all it does is think of hot, sweaty men folk.
Posts
21 comments:
You do have quite the fan club going there! I think you get picked up on some of the blogs that live to criticize orthodox Christians (though they use much more colorful names).
Hang in there. I can relate. Although my bigger frustration isn't with the pagan-and-proud-of-it crowd, it is with the "emergent" / liberal Christians who are clueless about the Bible and have no desire to learn about it. They believe the opposite of what Jesus does on virtually every topic yet insist they are Christians.
They are pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, etc. and toss out some horrid reasoning, then are beyond correction. They won't even discuss the Bible or try to point out where they think I'm wrong.
Neil,
You have done VERY well at your blog countering the emergent/liberal types that follow reprobate theology and call themselves "Christians."
All we can do is point the way towards our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and share the truth of God's Word. If they refuse to heed what is being shared, it's their fault, not ours.
In the previous comment thread, Susan Smith shared the following verse. I think it accurately describes why the type of people with whom we are both dealing with absolutely hate what we share about Christ and the Bible!
“For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life” (2CO 2:15-16, NIV).
Christine,
I think Xotan is the name. I think the "confusion" is confusing me.
Anyway, if this person (quoted below) reads this blog, I would like to share my thoughts with him/she(?).
Christians do not care for what you do in your bedroom. What we do care about is that we are able to continue to "rightly divide the word of truth" from the pulpit. Translation, in case this confuses you:
Your agenda wants to censor the Bible. So, no, we will not extend tolerance to the homosexual agenda. I believe, to a point, we turn our heads and kick the dust off of our feet. That is enough tolerance. The Bible exhorts us to have nothing to do with you if you refuse to repent. So, carry on. But we will not extend an opportunity for the homosexual agenda to censor the Bible and demand that a minister can not teach his congregation that the Bible says "Thus saith The Lord".
You so innocently claim to be a victim. The fact is, tolerance will only breed intolerance from those (your people) who seek to have their (your) agenda met.
And to whom ever it was that said for Christine to change the fact that she is a woman. Then asked how it feels to not be able to change something she has no choice of. That is just pure ignorance.
How can you knowingly tell her that she is a woman and can do nothing about it? In that statement you confess that she is a natural born woman. Which should cause you to understand what 'natural' is. And by the way, the Bible does not condemn anyone for being a 'real' woman or a 'real' man (I wonder why?). But, it does strongly state that homosexuality is an abomination.
Xotan
#697633
2008-Aug-30 08:24 PM
The day Christians extend tolerance to others, and start minding their own business, and stop looking at what is going on in others' bedrooms, is the day they should be tolerated.
So, in the post I made that you for some reason opted not to publish, I tried to explain why people take offense to what you were saying.
And look, here's a bunch of people from God-know's-where, objecting to what you've been saying, on what should be by now familiar grounds..
One GREAT way you could minister to all the dissaffected probably-ex-Christian people (homosexual and heterosexual) is to change your language.
There really ARE people, real people, "people with feelings", as one poster said, who object to how you talk about them - NOT how you happen to feel about them. They don't understand why SO MANY Christians feel comfortable condemning them.
If you really care more about the Gospel than about "being right", you should prove it by engaging these posters individually, rather than nailing their comments to the church door as a supposed example of some "gay anti-Christian agenda". I'm saddened that you would choose to "out" them this way, revealing their comments to your "loyal" readership in a complaint rather than hosting them in discussion, but the opportunity is still open!
The "confused" masses CAME TO YOU - the least you could do is love them. Don't pretend to 'teach' them with Spurgeon quotes and marginally apropos Bible exerpts; every poster has a different story. See if you can get them to talk to you.
I'll help you, if you'd like.
To "never" -
What are you talking about? I published your comment twice! First in the original comment thread, and then in the "Lack of Real Wisdom" post.
"never" wrote: "And look, here's a bunch of people from God-know's-where, objecting to what you've been saying, on what should be by now familiar grounds."
Objection to God's Word by "dissaffected, ex-Christian people" often have hardened their hearts to the truth. Many have made up their minds to ignore God's call for righteousness.
I could write the sweetest, most tolerant, loving, inviting, genuinely God-loving post for them - but what would be their reaction if they have already made up their minds not to repent?
They don't like hearing (or reading) the bad news of their sin condition. That is the first step in sharing the gospel. Those who don't think that there is anything wrong with their behavior (whether it is homosexual or heterosexual sin) are not going to be open to the truth.
These people need to seek out pastoral help - and - not from the reprobate, homosexual-behavior-affirming church types.
My little blog probably isn't going to have much effect upon them. It may help stir their consciences to seek out the absolute truth, but taking the next step would require a change of heart that only the Holy Spirit of God can do.
I can encourage them to take The Good Person test.
I can share with them my webpage that discusses how to become a born-again Christian.
The Bible tells us that many will not believe - no matter how much evidence is given them. There is a verse that states that some would not believe - even when Jesus physically walked the earth. Thousands of people actually saw him die on the cross and rise again from the dead. If some will not believe under those "seen before their very eyes" circumstances, then what would make them believe 2,000 years later while reading a Christian blog?
One correction. I didn't "out them." A blogger with the screen name "alcari" wrote a comment here - which I didn't publish because I didn't want a direct link to their rantings. They each have an opportunity to come here and conduct CIVIL discussions on this issue. Instead, you will notice, they chose to go to their own little site and mock me and my blog topics.
"never" wrote: "The "confused" masses CAME TO YOU - the least you could do is love them. Don't pretend to 'teach' them with Spurgeon quotes and marginally apropos Bible exerpts; every poster has a different story. See if you can get them to talk to you."
The "confused" at that site do not appear to want a discussion. They desired only to mock. They are still welcome to post comments here if any of them are willing to engage in a civil discussion. Comments will not be posted if they contain curse words or take the name of the Lord in vain.
I noticed that you have already placed your own "rules" upon me before the discussion even begins! You wrote that I should not "pretend to 'teach' them with Spurgeon quotes and marginally apropos Bible exerpts [sic]."
Well - if that is the way you feel about it then I must ask - why have a discussion at all, then?
hi christine!
i couldn't help myself. i just wanted to drop in and make sure everything is running smoothly here in black-and-white land. and from reading some of these comments, i see it is. i'll have to stop by occasionally between now and november - i'm sure sarah palin is like (wo)manna from heaven for you.
i wish obama had picked her. i like her 'resists-authority-figures' streak. i always associated biden with same ol' same ol', albeit a different 'ol' than what the past 8 years have been.
what i'm having a hard time understanding is this: you have a guy who likes to be a maverick do something that a maverick would do. but now we've got two mavericks joined at the hip. what happens when two 'i'm-my-own-guy/gal' types get together?
sarah palin is a tangible example of someone i'd vote for.
my guess, though, is that she's just mccain's trojan horse.
carry on. if someone asks me where they can find some clear-cut, black-and-white answers on every issue in the book, i'll point them this way. stop by my blog when you have the time.
mike rucker
fairburn, ga, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
I posted a reply in "Lack of Real Wisdom". I guess Blogger ate it. My apologies.
Re: "what does it matter if they've made up their minds not to repent?"
You shouldn't second-guess God, who owns all our souls. None of us have the discernment to declare whose hearts among us are 'hard' to God - if you'll notice, one consistent theme among your critics here is that your heart is hard against them. One dude even suggested slapping Christians with tea towels until they soften up and learn to be tolerant.
They read your words and respond to how you talk about them.
"They don't like hearing the bad news of their sin condition."
As a Christian, ESPECIALLY an Evangelical one, it seems to me that your business is the Good News of the Cross: Jesus died for all of us, penitent and unrepentant, the dead the living and the not-yet-alive - not only those who happen to be Evangelical Christians at this moment.
You say you doubt your blog will help them: I have to wonder, if you named your blog Talk Wisdom, and if your writing here is really an honest effort to do so, how you could admit to having so little faith in the power of talk? Isn't your mission with this blog the salvation of God's people?
The power of employing labels against those you declare enemies, however, is quite real, and your use of labels like "confused" cause harm. Whenever two or more homosexuals are gathered on a blog, you've shown that you're willing to hang them all as a "CULT OF CONFUSION".
Come on.
Now we both know that's not the way to get people to talk to you. We want them to WANT to know Jesus, not think that our faith only gives us license to be brutish with them.
Say you had a daughter who, at 14, showed interest in dressing a little more provocatively than you'd like. Would you seek to curb this behavior by saying to her, "I'm not letting you out of the house - you look like a whore of Jezebel"?
No, of course not. You'd know that, no matter how much Biblical justification you could find for offering stern rebukes to "wayward" people, that using words like that against your daughter is neither wise or gentle, like Jesus told us to be. And it would certainly strain your relationship with her.
You'd probably kindly try to steer her towards wearing clothes that accentuated her beauty instead of highlighting her sexuality. You'd do it with praise and affirmation, and you'd win because when people are showed real love and find that their beauty is significant to someone else, especially when they are feeling the least bit uncertain about themselves, they LOVE that feeling and they soak it up and return it freely.
If you really believe that homosexuals are confused, quit trying to set them straight with criticism. You can do better than that.
Most everybody who's hating on you somewhere out there, I expect, is somebody who doesn't know how to deal with your critical tone - not because they think it's scarily convicting and justified in the Bible, but because it seems cruel and they wish, despite their anger towards you, that things were different between you and them. We ALL have wounds of petty criticisms from others lingering on our hearts: don't be surprised that your words enflame others, and, as you love Jesus, don't treat it like a foregone conclusion!
And lastly, I'm not placing rules on you - I began this conversation to ask you not to speak a certain way, because others are offended by it. That's not a rule. It's a request. And I asked that, instead of hunting out Bible quotes and apologetics as proof texts to explain your actions and criticize the lives of others, you search for a better way to communicate with those you address.
As a result of your way of talking, you come off differently than you intend to. You clearly believe that Scripture is the armor of God, and in a way that's commendable, but you wear the Testaments like it was Hazmat suit, giving the impression that you are wading through the rest of us like you think we're lepers. As if by virtue of your superior justification, you're immune to us, the reprobate - but you're here to help! If only the world could figure out how diseased it is!
You can't be surprised that they stuck to their own "little" site ("little"? why diminish them?). Nobody likes to feel summarily rejected. Nobody likes condescension. Lots of people read your site and feel that you would hate them and treat them frostily if they even came to you directly.
Christians should NEVER make people think that we hate them.
Pagans, gays, Muslims, secularists, minorities: they're made up of individual people, and I'm sure would like for us not to apply humiliating derogations to them as a group.
And no, it doesn't matter that some among them won't return the favor. If Jesus was scourged while carrying a cross for us and BLESSED us before dying for our sins, our reverence for the Crucifixion must hold our tongues. We owe nobody an unkind word or a hostile denigration. Our faith in Jesus Christ doesn't justify it. His mission is not furthered by it, and our sin remains on us, no matter how many Bible quotes we reference.
Try being all things to all men, so that by all means you might help save some?
Dialogue is important. Charity in conversation is so important, and I think you can see that you're offending a lot of people by neglecting simple understanding and good faith. I'm being firm with you because you're driving people away from the Cross, and we both know that's not what our Christian lives are for.
Please, work with sinners. Don't cause them to blaspheme God, whom they don't know, by being a surly emissary. Don't try to guess in advance who is or isn't 'heart-hardened' - if you believe God can open and close men's hearts, then trust God and write with all sweetness, love, tolerance and genuineness you can!
If you can, you're truly holy and God is with you, because doing so is one of the greatest challenges of Christian life - consanguinity, as we look back into the eyes of people consumed by the sins we JUST got away from! Write that way, if you have it in you to, and show that God is in your heart! Most people can't, but they need to hear it.
If you've truly witnessed the Risen Christ, then you are writing here for Him as a witness to those who haven't seen. Many have NOT seen. Lovingly show them the face of their Creator. He made you in his image, so let them see Him, and his Spirit will do the necessary. The disciple of Christ, born again, dies daily to himself and his sins and lives through God's mercy. His words belong to God, and his intentions are his Father's business. Think about it. Dialectical disputations don't attract men to God, but love and candor, faith and truth, do.
Everybody that reads your blog is a sinner, you know?
Please try hard to watch your words.
neverlosethatfeeling just said everything i've ever wanted to say, tried to say, or failed to say around various sites at w's and al gore's internets.
i hope it finds fertile ground to grow in.
mike rucker
fairburn, ga, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com
Never -
You have posted quite a long comment. My time (at the moment) is limited so I will need to respond to all of the points later. Others are welcome to join in with the conversation.
I will respond to a few of your points.
1. Did you notice that I called my blog a "little" blog too? Please don't play the victim about EVERYTHING and unnecessarily take offense about every small thing that you happen to believe is meant for insult. It makes your arguments less effective.
2. Jesus did die for all of us. However, he also told Nicodemus in John 3 that he (as well as we) "must be born again" in order to see the kingdom of God.
3. You wrote: "As a Christian, ESPECIALLY an Evangelical one, it seems to me that your business is the Good News of the Cross: Jesus died for all of us, penitent and unrepentant, the dead the living and the not-yet-alive - not only those who happen to be Evangelical Christians at this moment."
Do you know what the first words were that Jesus spoke when he began his three year ministry on earth?
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
These are only a few of the 43 verses in the Bible that call for people to repent. I would think that it's important to God...wouldn't you?
What were the apostles told to do via The Great Commission?
Mar 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
What happens to those who refuse to repent?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
What did the apostles teach during their missionary journeys in the book of Acts?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Repentance is SO VERY IMPORTANT to our Lord Jesus Christ, that He has given final instructions in the book of Revelation:
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Note what Jesus says here about "love", "rebuking" and "chastening":
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent
Jim -
The points you made in your comment were excellent! And SO TRUE! Of course, the opposition will NEVER admit to them. They must keep the "victim" ruse alive in order to mask what is really going.
You "outed" their intentions quite well and stated the truth of the matter! Well done!!
Never,
It seems to me that your commentary has a great deal of wisdom and gentleness in it. I can say very honestly that there is not one thing in there that I note as incorrect or objectionable. Indeed, much of it reflects the Christian ideal. I guess that where I sometimes come off with problems myself is how to execute the ideal when confronted with the "real deal."
While I agree that our mission is one of love and reconciliation, there is always the danger of compromise of principle, particularly where situations arise that direct response is required. For example, if someone asks me whether I am for or against gay marriage, I have to say against. When they ask why, what could I tell them that they (particularly if gay and convinced that it is morally and spiritually okay) would not find offensive?
Now Mike Rucker a few comments back made a comment referring to "black and white" land. And I certainly can't deny it, though I think what the other side overlooks is that they are in a "black and white" land of their own. To the best of my knowledge, they are no more accepting of the Christian view represented here than that view itself. So, if both sides cannot or will not give ground (and I have yet to find a place where Jesus gave ground on a sin issue), then what is the suggestion? I mean specifically. Are there examples you can provide of how to not offend but not deviate from the truth? I ask sincerely.
Christinejwc, if you're going to respond to something I said, answer these while you're at it.
I don't understand how an omnipotent creator, a merciful savior and a holy Father God could possibly have an "opposition" among the men and women he made in his image and likeness.
Political parties have oppositions. Armies have oppositions. But Jesus had no enemies that could impede His work: he had people who followed him and usually let him down, and people who refused to follow him and killed him.
Jesus is the Lamb of God, you agree. His work was not at all like that of other preachers. He did not come to spread the truth, but he told us, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life," and for all time established himself as the path to holiness, doing a work that none before Him could imagine and lightening the burden of all who would come after Him.
He was not a preacher, or an ideologue, or a side-chooser, or a parser of the Law, or a campaigner for Justice or righteousness.
Jesus didn't come to the earth to expose people who were playing the "victim" card - he came as a living sacrifice for the sins of his accusers and the whole world, a world that accused him of pretending to be God, and offered Him no mercy. They meted out justice on him: the Jewish leaders unmasked him for his impossible claims to be the Son of God, and those who celebrated Him showed him no tenderness, mercy or understanding. They mocked his teachings, and demonstrated the foolishness of his words about following God and his miraculous works: they watched as he went to the Cross, and they killed Him.
He gave His life with mercy to people who asserted their right to His life - to protect the authority of the religion of the Jewish people, and their political status in the Roman Empire.
Jesus Christ, perfect in Justice and Mercy, blameless in God's eyes and perfect as a sacrifice, came AS Justice and Mercy for the benefit of sinners.
It isn't Jesus that the Hebrews called the Accuser.
If God could come to Earth and do this work - if he could walk among us, work miracles, preach the kingdom and accept his ignominious death at our hands, and THEN return to establish his church and give His Spirit to the disciples and disperse them among the Jews and Gentiles alike - in Christ's life, in his ministry and after, do you think he really saw unbelievers, resisters and questioners as "opposition"?
Did the Apostles? Could they have, in order to do their work?
Jesus began his mission with a call to repent, in the tradition of the Old Testament prophets to prove Himself to us, and according to His own Divine scheme. No Christian would deny that our penance is important to God. However, the interplay of divine mercy and judgment, of God responding to the faith of His people and repelling them for their fallenness, is far, FAR more complex than the verses you've picked insinuate.
The redemption of man has been the labor of Christ and his prophets for thousands of years; you can't reduce their work, or our emerging and deeply personal discoveries of it in our lives, to a few choice exempli gratia.
And again, for OUR part, whose holiness is certainly less than the apostles, and whose churches are not named in the book of Revelations, the question compounds itself: Revelations is full of calls to specific communities with messages addressed to certain among them. What do we, privileged to be fellow-hearers of those messages, make of them? These are questions I think we should all ask ourselves.
Do you hear them addressed to you?
Is it really possible to regard other sinners as liars, as fakers, as an "opposition" to the Truth you claim to have found, and love them as Jesus did?
If it is, how do you regard yourself, when you sin? If you others discovered your secret sins? How could you respond to others who point out the sins you commit?
How would you demonstrate the honesty or completeness of your repentance? Do you hear the words of Revelation addressed to you, to your heart, among all sinful hearts?
Do usually you find that those who claim you sin against them, who speak against you or confront you, are just 'playing the victim'?
How do you discover your sin? Does Jesus have to write you a letter?
It's important you understand, I'm not trying to jump on your back, but it pains me to see you drive people away from God with how you speak of them.
I just want to quickly adress the "don't worry about what happens in my bedroom" argument. For any Homosexuals reading this, please understand, this is a very poor argument. Many laws do, and should, reach into the bedroom.
Rape, can happen in a bedroom. Incest can happen in a bedroom.
These are things that are, and should be against the law.
I'm not actually weighing into this debate, but you really need to come up with a better argument. It will actually help your cause.
Never,
Jumping in while still hoping you can address some of my questions - An answer for at least one part is "Yes," Jesus regarded some people as "opposition." The Pharisees come to mind. His criticism in some cases was quite vocal. He also spoke very poorly of those "who break the commandments and teach others to do the same." Later on, Paul spoke of friendship to the world as being an enemy of God. When you look back at the Biblical history, and history not specifically recorded in the scriptures, you find that a great number of people who attempt to do work for God coming to a painful end as a result.
In a more modern frame, I don't think that God considers any person an enemy that can harm him, yet there are many that proudly declare enmity or disbelief in him. More, they fight to exclude him from every section of public life. I do not believe it an exaggeration to reference the conflict as a battle.
aww...I was too slow and finding this at the main site. I wanna get quoted too. :(
I think it's quite out-of-our-league to say that a mortal person, composed of conflicted opinions, emotions and rationality, could ever be an enemy to God.
And I disagree that the Pharasees were enemies of God - they believed as strongly as anyone - as strongly as Christinejwc, certainly - that they were doing God's work and were beyond criticism or need of redemption. As a result, they had an markedly adversarial relationship with Jesus on Earth, but he never condemned them to Hell or raised armies against them or did anything that showed that He thought His other actions - preaching and dying - insufficient covering for their sins.
As for Paul declaring friendship to "the world" being God's enemy, it's an understandable hyperbole because it stresses the point that our attachments to diversions around us can block us from God. But I think a serious reading of the text is enough to hammer home the understanding that Paul is not here declaring God's enemies for Him - something that God, always and at all times, has the autonomy to do. And He has.
The danger of 'war-between-good-and-evil' thinking is that one is always tempted to assume that he's on the side of good, and whoever isn't nearby is probably evil or at the very least, lost.
But we have to understand, even if there is a 'battle' for souls, we aren't soldiers, we're medics. We're noncombatants. God has the authority over hearts and souls - we preach His forgiveness and the way to His kingdom and prayer is our medicine, but it is God, who counts even those who rise in partisanship against him His children, who ultimately engages that which is evil in them, and in us.
"I think it's quite out-of-our-league to say that a mortal person, composed of conflicted opinions, emotions and rationality, could ever be an enemy to God."
I guess that you and I define enemy differently.
"And I disagree that the Pharasees were enemies of God - they believed as strongly as anyone - as strongly as Christinejwc, certainly - that they were doing God's work and were beyond criticism or need of redemption. As a result, they had an markedly adversarial relationship with Jesus on Earth, but he never condemned them to Hell or raised armies against them or did anything that showed that He thought His other actions - preaching and dying - insufficient covering for their sins."
"Mat 23:15 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over sea and land to make a single convert, and when this happens you make him twice as fit for hell as you are.
Mat 23:16 "How terrible it will be for you, blind guides! You say, 'Whoever swears an oath by the sanctuary is excused, but whoever swears an oath by the gold of the sanctuary must keep his oath.'
Mat 23:17 You blind fools! What is more important, the gold or the sanctuary that made the gold holy?
Mat 23:18 Again you say, 'Whoever swears an oath by the altar is excused, but whoever swears by the gift that is on it must keep his oath.'
Mat 23:19 You blind men! Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift holy?
Mat 23:20 Therefore, the one who swears an oath by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
Mat 23:21 The one who swears an oath by the sanctuary swears by it and by the one who lives there.
Mat 23:22 And the one who swears an oath by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
Mat 23:23 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you give a tenth of your mint, dill, and cummin, but have neglected the more important matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the things you should have practiced, without neglecting the others.
Mat 23:24 You blind guides! You filter out a gnat, yet swallow a camel!
Mat 23:25 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but on the inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that its outside may also be clean.
Mat 23:27 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead people's bones and every kind of impurity.
Mat 23:28 In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Mat 23:29 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous.
Mat 23:30 Then you say, 'If we had been living in the days of our ancestors, we would have had no part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
Mat 23:31 Therefore, you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Then finish what your ancestors started!
Mat 23:33 You snakes, you children of serpents! How can you escape being condemned to hell? "
Christ was very specific about their actions. He said that they hated both him and his Father. That certainly meets my definition of enemy.
"we aren't soldiers, we're medics."
Baloney.
Paul also declares that we are at war and that we are to take up the armor. That armor is used in battle, and the Word is the only weapon we are given. As for the idea of Paul employing hyperbole, I don't think our God is prone to exaggeration, and I don't think his prophets were either.
In the end time, God will win the victory, and along the way he provides the power, but to say that we are to remain out of the battle is ridiculous. Almost from the time of the fall, God used men to transmit his messages and in large part to destroy evil that festered. God didn't directly destroy the high places in ancient Israel. He told the Israelites to do it. He didn't keep Christ present in bodily form to continually oppose wrong doctrine. He gave that responsibility to men (and by that I mean humans, not gender specific). To say that we are to remain out of the conflict is to ignore Christ's last command - Go and make disciples. That isn't just making converts, that's discipling, that's teaching the truth. If we were just supposed to stay around spreading words of comfort, Christ would not have declared that we would be persecuted and killed and hounded. No one goes after that kind of Christian, because that kind of Christian makes very little difference in the long term. Oh, you will ease the suffering of some, but without conversion, teaching, correcting, and overcoming, you build nothing that will survive this world. God desires us to build for his kingdom to come, not to simply perform triage on the present.
I would still like to hear some kind of example of how to reach people without condoning sin or denying the truth.
The role of the believer is non-combatant in the sense that he isn't a partisan in God's literal army. In other words, Crusades and Jihads are emphatically wrong. The armor of God obviously isn't literal, but it's not cognitive - in other words, the strength of faith is not derived from philosophical "proofs" of reality, goodness and truth or convincing people of Christianity's merits, but in the contemplating of Christ's sacrifice, and in coming to understand our release from sin. In other words, refutation is not the primary business of Christianity.
And I read the verses you posted as a warning, not a condemnation. When Jesus has all the power that is, and he addresses those who've distorted the will of God so lightly, we should think about how He thinks of them. An interesting verse choice, given the topic here.
Jesus promised rest, peace, an easy yoke, a light burden. The work of the cross underwrites for all time the freedom we find in relying on Him. We are to pray for those who persecute us, shake the dust from our feet where we are rebuffed, and not let ourselves be swallowed by restlessness to do God's work by condemning others.
Conversion is not a war - no MAN can overcome the minds of others. But we can be a light for others if God is a light within us.
One GREAT way that individuals can minister to gay people is by helping ensure that prejudice against gay people is eradicated, that gay youth aren't getting rocks thrown at them or catching horrible diseases or getting crippled by drug use. We should be there to remind them that the life God has for them is different than they lead, but the important thing is to develop relationships that allow us to BE THERE in the first place. You never know how God will use a real, loving relationship to pull people out of sin; condemning and mocking people on a blog will NEVER have that effect.
Christians have to quit sitting on the sidelines, scandalizing themselves about how 'Godless' the culture is, and engage the real-life people around us without pretending to know anything about them.
Never,
Re: "what does it matter if they've made up their minds not to repent?"
Never wrote: You shouldn't second-guess God, who owns all our souls. None of us have the discernment to declare whose hearts among us are 'hard' to God - if you'll notice, one consistent theme among your critics here is that your heart is hard against them. One dude even suggested slapping Christians with tea towels until they soften up and learn to be tolerant.
Whenever Jesus was challenged, he responded with God's written word. I will do the same, as well as interperse my own comments.
Mat 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.
Never wrote: "They read your words and respond to how you talk about them.
Chris wrote: "They don't like hearing the bad news of their sin condition."
Isa 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
2Cr 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Luk 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth [it] in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
Never wrote: "You say you doubt your blog will help them: I have to wonder, if you named your blog Talk Wisdom, and if your writing here is really an honest effort to do so, how you could admit to having so little faith in the power of talk? Isn't your mission with this blog the salvation of God's people?
I have faith in the power of Jesus Christ...not "the power of talk." We evangelize and share the gospel. God does the saving.
Part of sharing the gospel also means telling people the "bad news" first - that we are all sinners in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
Did you take "The Good Test" Never? How did you do? I failed miserably.
Even before a person can come to repentance, he/she must come to the foot of the cross with a broken and contrite heart.
Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Never wrote: "The power of employing labels against those you declare enemies, however, is quite real, and your use of labels like "confused" cause harm. Whenever two or more homosexuals are gathered on a blog, you've shown that you're willing to hang them all as a "CULT OF CONFUSION"."
The "cult of confusion" people are the homosexual activists who attempt to trample upon the religious rights and beliefs of Christians. They attempt to change laws to appease their own pride and arrogance against God's will and laws as revealed in the Bible.
As far as being "enemies" goes, we are ALL enemies of God before we come to Him through Jesus - with a broken and contrite heart; confession of sin and repentance (which means determining to turn away from continuing in former sinful acts); asking Jesus to forgive us of our sins and asking him to enter our hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit of God.
Psa 66:3 Say unto God, How terrible [art thou in] thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Never wrote: "Most everybody who's hating on you somewhere out there, I expect, is somebody who doesn't know how to deal with your critical tone - not because they think it's scarily convicting and justified in the Bible, but because it seems cruel and they wish, despite their anger towards you, that things were different between you and them. We ALL have wounds of petty criticisms from others lingering on our hearts: don't be surprised that your words enflame others, and, as you love Jesus, don't treat it like a foregone conclusion!"
You have stated that I quote many Bible verses here. Then you tell me that my "words inflame others." Do you notice what you are saying? It is not my words that inflame them, it is God's written word that bothers them!
Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
Jhn 15:25 But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I have to say that "things won't be different" between them and I until both sides drop the arrogance, the victim-like mentality, and the air of pretention towards humbleness.
How is this accomplished? Only through genuine conversion towards God's will for our salvation, righteousness, and obedience. Otherwise, both sides will relentless clash.
Why do I say this? Because it is true.
Ever hear of the story of the boy who received the "Most Humble" badge and had it taken away because he wore it? It's an elusive virtue - isn't it?
If I thought that this blog was professing my own type of wisdom - then I would be deemed arrogant...no? Arrogance and "pride of self" is a primary trait that is difficult to get rid of - isn't it?
If I continually complained about how people "hate Christians" (which I often do, btw), then I am guilty of proclaiming that "victim mentality." Right?
So what's the difference?
I think that it has to do with releasing the burden of guilt. We all need to experience this. We all have the same plight - sin. However, the price of admission into God's kingdom is steep. It requires righteousness. Please see these righteousness verses:
2 Peter 1:1
Psalms 7:11
Psalms 11:7
Psalms 112:3
Psalms 71:19
Isaiah 112:3
On the night of his death, Jesus began his prayer with the words "Righteous Father" (see John 17:25)
Get the point? God is righteous. His decrees are righteous (see Romans 1;32). His judgment is righteous (see Romans 2:5). His requirements are righteous (see Romans 8:4). His acts are righteous (see Daniel 9:16). Daniel declared, "Our God is right in everything he does" (see Daniel 9:14).
God is, and has always been righteous. We are not. Thus, we see our plight.
Here's the question. Will God, who is righteous, spend eternity with those who are not?
Consider this question. If God accepted the unrighteous, the invitation may be nicer but would he be right? Would he be right to overlook our sins? Lower his standards?
God told Isaiah that righteousness would be his plumb line, the standard by which his house is measured (see Isaiah 28:17). If we are unrighteous, we are left out. As Romans 3:19 tells us - we are sinners - everyone of us, in the same sinking boat with everyone else. Then what are we to do?
Guilt consumes us - whether we admit it or not. The only way we can be righteous is through what Christ did for us on the cross 2,000 years ago. God took care of our sin problem. But we must confess and repent at the foot of the cross.
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God" (see 1 Peter 3:18 NIV).
God has a way to make people right with him (see Romans 3:21).
But what happens when people do not believe that their sins separate them from God forever in eternity? They die with their own sins on their souls.
Jesus told us that the path to righteousness is narrow - and few there be that find it. He also said that "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." David said it this way in Psalms 23:3 NKJV) - "He leads me in the paths of righteousness."
We get to heaven by virtue of Someone else's work. Our only contribution is our own confession. That is what is required.
God gave imperfect believers the task to share the gospel with a sinful, depraved world. He warned us that the task would not be easy. He warned us that not everyone would "love" us and welcome the gospel message of Jesus Christ. He told us why people wouldn't like it - because the light of Jesus exposes the fact that "their deeds are evil."
Jesus also told us - "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose one's own soul?"
I could profess another gospel that appeases sinners for their sins. I could lie and say that it doesn't matter that you have sinned and have not repented of your sins. I could feign "love" of people (the kind that the world gives) that ignores God's call for agape love that leads them towards repentance. The kind of love that the world gives often does not have Him (God) in mind. I could be well-liked because I don't say anything against anyone - thinking that I am following the Great Commission command that Jesus gave us before his ascension into heaven. But would God be pleased?
We are to witness to others FOR an audience of One.
Paul had it right when he proclaimed in Gal. 6:14 that "the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ is my only reason for bragging."
My message is to declare that our Creator would rather die for you than live without you. If Jesus didn't complete his mission via the cross (which, btw, was his act of laying his own life down of his own volition - no one "took it from him" as "never" had previously claimed in a comment)then he would have re-entered heaven alone.
People need to hear the truth - not a watered-down message that presents a false gospel.
Make that word, "intersperse." Sorry about any other typos. Had to complete this quickly today.
Lynch-Patrick,
In your analysis of the verses that I listed, you make the mistake of using a 20 (or 21st) century interpretation of a first century conversation. What you call addressing the matter "so lightly" would have been considered a capital (as in punishable by death)crime under Mosaic law. The rabbi on the street did not chastise members of the Jewish Supreme Court in public.
There are other places where Christ uses the term "woe to you Pharisees, you hypocrites." In a similar way, the word rendered "woe" does not have the connotation that we think of today. Where we think of woe as a sadness, the literal meaning is one of complete calamity. Think of the "woes" mentioned in Revelation and you will get the idea. What sounds very light by our standards was practically a declaration of war. Remember, they weren't getting ready to crucify him because he was mildly annoying.
If you are looking for a few more explicit words, look at Jesus's approach during the triumphal entry. He weeps for the city and people he loves, but that doesn't mean he's holding back judgment. He goes so far as to declare that "Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off on the day of judgment" because of their lack of repentance. And with our modern culture, including liberal Christianity, shying away from proclaiming the truth about homosexuality repentance will be harder and harder to achieve.
I agree completely with the concept of eliminating prejudice against gay people. I want to eliminate prejudice against all people groups for that matter. My understanding of prejudice, however, is that it is a hatred of a person or group based solely on an immutable characteristic. Neither I nor Christine are attacking a person or group. We are pointing out that a behavior is sinful. It is no worse than other sins, but a sin nonetheless. It is just as immoral to tell people that homosexual acts and relations are moral as it would be to instruct them that murder or theft is moral.
As for diseases and drug use, these are terrible things, but those are also personal behaviors and choices. I believe a great number of Christians are involved in ministries along those lines, hopefully while preserving the truth of their ministry.
Your comment about "shaking the dust off the feet" is misapplied somewhat. Christ said to shake off the dust from the feet if a city would not accept the message. True enough. The prescription for promoting false doctrine is a good deal more harsh.
Mat 18:6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea."
Christ has mercy on those who believe in him, even if they do preach false doctrine, but the words are not encouraging: Mat 5:19 So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Helping people is wonderful, and I love to do it. But as we strive to make life comfortable for others on earth, let's not forget that Christ's number one purpose was to turn people to God. He healed people, but he didn't establish hospitals. He fed people, but he didn't set up soup kitchens. He built a body of believers to be disciples. If you are doing everything else and ignoring that, you are dropping the big picture.
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