Sunday, February 17, 2008

Marriage: The Image of God

Please watch the message at the following link, and share your comments!

Marriage: The Image of God

Go to the site and click on the arrow on the right of that particular message.

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Added on 2/17/08

Outline of Message


Marriage, the Image of God

Passage: Genesis 1
Miles McPherson - February 10, 2008

Pastor Miles was at a park yesterday watching his son play flag football.

A woman with her son came up to Pastor Miles because her son wanted to meet Pastor Miles, seeing as how they go to the Rock. Pastor Miles noticed the woman also had her daughter with her, but the whole time the daughter was just clinging to her mother's leg almost hiding from him. This is a reflection of a connection children have with their mothers. It is a special connection; one that a father may not have with their child the same way a mother does, because children come from their mother.

We begin in Genesis 1 this Sunday as we look at the topic of Marriage: The Image of God.

In Genesis 1 we see that man is made in the image of God. When God created Adam, he saw that it was not good for man to be alone, and He created Eve from Adam. And God saw that was good!

The Marriage Battle
Though clearly we see from the beginning of Scripture, God created man and woman to be united in marriage with one another, our current culture is striving to take the marriage covenant in a different direction. We are in a spiritual battle, as society pushes more and more for marriage to be legal between couples of the same sex.

In this discussion it needs to be clear that Christians are not and should not be against homosexuals as individual people. Rather it is the homosexual agenda that we must stand up against.

The homosexual agenda is being pushed upon this nation, to the point where it may become illegal for pastors to preach against homosexuality from the pulpit, that is where even such preaching is deemed a crime. In some countries this is already the case. Keep in mind this battle is not about gay people, rather it is a spiritual battle in which we are fighting the devil!

Right and Wrong

We have to know what the basis of our right and wrong is, before we can just decide whether something is right or wrong.

In the Bible we find absolute truth. We can know an objective moral truth. Truth is not relative; otherwise truth can be whatever we want it to be.

Our truth cannot constantly be changing. In regards to homosexuality, there are Christians who are homosexuals, it is not about whether or not God loves homosexuals, and He of course does. However just like every other Christian we have to follow God on God's terms. God designed us with a specific intent, and the devil seeks to destroy that.

The malady of creating our own wrong and rights leaves it up to us, and that puts us on shaky ground. We must refer to Scripture and know what God says on the moral matters and follow that, because that is solid ground.

Man and Woman in God's Image

God calls sex a one-flesh union, two people becoming one, a holy union. However, sex outside the context of marriage is not a holy union.Male and Female are distinct expressions of the Image of God.

Genesis 1:26-27 states, Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God intentionally created us male and female for a marriage relationship. Genesis 2:18 states, Then the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.

God made mankind in His image. He separated them, and they will strive to become one again.

Genesis 2:21-23 states, So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Sex is a union of shameless one-ness between man and a woman. God calls sex a one-flesh union, two people becoming one, a holy union. However, sex outside the context of marriage is not a holy union.

The devil wants to see us have sex with as many people as we can, because that will scar us at the core of our beings. He wants to break our conscience down, wearing out our God conscience to the point where we have no idea of right or wrong anymore.

Biblical marriage promotes life, for the raising of children by mothers and fathers. Homosexual behavior reduces life. Why? No one can be born out of a homosexual relationship. Marriage is not a governmental issue. It is something the church is the custodian of.

Marriage is designed to be a lifelong commitment. It is clear among statistics that homosexual relationships are mainly about sex, this is attributed to the fact of the amount of sexual partners a homosexual person has a year, regardless of whether he is in a monogamous "marriage" relationship.

Exercise Biblical Responsibility

Knowing what we know about the marriage covenant, according to the absolute truth of Scripture, as God created it, we must stand up for it, keeping it a holy union as God intended it to be.

We need to exercise our Biblical responsibility and our legal right to speak truth and help bring change to our country in this pivotal time. We cannot just sit back and watch these things happen. We must pray and act!

20 comments:

Christinewjc said...

I would like to also share a post done by my friend Jaded at her blog which prompted me to encourage all readers here to view Pastor Miles McPherson's video sermon message today.

Riddle Me This One

Here is a copy of my comment there:

Hi Jaded,

Not quite sure who you are discussing in this post, but I can venture a guess.

Anyway, in the light of the passing of the bill SB777 here in CA, I would really like your opinion of a sermon that was recently done by Pastor Miles McPherson of The Rock Church.

Here is the link:

The Rock Messages and when you get there, click on "Marriage: The Image of God." You can watch the entire sermon by clicking on the arrow, or just listen to it by clicking on the MP3 icon.

Perhaps you are correct that the failed ministry described in your post is suffering because of not following God's will in this matter.

However, it could also be a severe attack by Satan.

How do we know for sure?

When you watch the video of that sermon on marriage, you will hear that Pastor Miles had been threatened, several times, from presenting that particular message at his church.

I ask you this. What is wrong with this picture?

If you can show me how Pastor Miles presented anything that was unbiblical then please do. I'd really like to read it.

If you can see what this battle is really all about (according to Miles' sermon) and the fact that it is not really a physical, but spiritual battle that is transpiring, then please tell me why you think that Christians should just let it all be and continue to allow homosexual activists to deceive people, families, schools, churches and nations.

GMpilot said...

How can marriage be "in the image of God" if the God himself is not married??

If one is an all-powerful god, and such a god wants to show people the right way to live, then leading by example is a good idea. Unfortunately, the Abrahamic God does not do this. Obviously, when he said "Thou shall not murder", he was actually telling mankind he reserved that privilege for himself. He seems to think that marriage is a good idea...but for men, not himself. One wonders how different things might be if modern Western thought included a Mrs. God!

Pastor McPherson says "...our current culture is striving to take the marriage covenant in a different direction."
No, it isn't. Our current culture is striving to expand the marriage covenant to include people who want to be included. If Christers deny gays the right to marry, it makes it much easier to condemn them for the immoral degenerates they secretly believe them to be. Rather like the old days in the South, when governments denied Negroes higher education and then pointed out their inferiority because "they can't be educated".

McPherson: "In the Bible we find absolute truth. We can know an objective moral truth. Truth is not relative; otherwise truth can be whatever we want it to be."
Was slavery an 'absolute truth'? It certainly isn't now; not in Christian countries, anyway, and we howl whenever we find it practiced in non-Christian countries. This appears to be a 'truth' which has had some relative changes. The Bible never condemed it, and in fact has rules regulating it; but if slavery is wrong in 2008 AD, it was wrong in 2008 BC. I guess truth can be whatever we want it to be. There are such things as objective truths, that they won't be found in that book!

Christians love to quote the old lines from Leviticus calling homosexuality an "abomination", but kinda glide over the rest of that verse, which calls for them to kill those who commit the act. Muslims, OTOH, take their sacred scrolls much more literally. Homosexuality is a capital offense in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, the UAE, Pakistan, Iran, Nigeria, Sudan, and Mauretania; all places where the Koran is the source of authority. None of those places are where I'd prefer to live (and I've been to a couple of 'em).

McPherson: "Biblical marriage promotes life, for the raising of children by mothers and fathers. Homosexual behavior reduces life. Why? No one can be born out of a homosexual relationship. Marriage is not a governmental issue. It is something the church is the custodian of. "
That would be true, if so many church people weren't themselves celibate. It's long been said that the incidents of homosexuality and pedophilia in the RCC would be greatly reduced if their priests (and nuns) were allowed to marry. I doubt I'll live long enough to see that. So...among that church, anyway, the rules are made by those who've never played the game.
'No one can be born out of a homosexual relationship'? Shhh! Don't tell that to Melissa Etheridge...or Mary Cheney...

McPherson: "It is clear among statistics that homosexual relationships are mainly about sex, this is attributed to the fact of the amount of sexual partners a homosexual person has a year, regardless of whether he is in a monogamous "marriage" relationship. "
And of course, it's a known fact that heterosexual relationships are not mainly about sex, despite that being the only way to "be fruitful, and multiply". And swingers clubs--where half the members are in monogamous relationships--don't really exist either, despite the ads you see in the newspapers. In the old days, kings and princes didn't marry in order to strengthen their bloodlines, or political alliances; they did it out of love! Sure they did!

McPherson: "Knowing what we know about the marriage covenant, according to the absolute truth of Scripture, as God created it, we must stand up for it, keeping it a holy union as God intended it to be."
The way to start that would be to edit those parts of the Bible involving Abraham's exploits; pimping out your wife to a king--twice!--doesn't appear to me to show a proper regard for marriage.
"Exercise Biblical Responsibility"!

Christinewjc said...

GMPilot,

Notice that the title does not claim "in"....the image of God.

Since you have quoted from Miles' sermon, then I gather that you have seen or heard the entire message. Congratulations! Even the person I first asked to listen to the message and give her opinion about it has not done so yet.

You wrote: "One wonders how different things might be if modern Western thought included a Mrs. God!"

Cute idea...but totally unnecessary. The Godhead is comprised of Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Plus, God is spirit so no need for any physical union like a "marriage" within the Godhead.

However, God's relationship with humankind is called a covenant, both in the OT and the NT. The marriage vows are a covenant between one man and one woman here on earth. And, as Pastor Miles explained, it's a blood covenant. Therefore, the oneness obtained through the marriage of one man with one woman on earth points to the oneness that believers have with Jesus Christ as our type of Groom and church (meaning, believers worldwide) is His bride. It has to do with the idea of the covenant and promises Christ gave us through the Cross at Calvary.

We have been through the "kill the homosexuals" debate before. I answered you about that already. Plus, did you notice that God doesn't have to really do anything? The behavior is poisonous and the deviant sexual acts cause disease and death. Recall the story about the prison yard. The inmates would create weapons with whatever they could find, smear it with feces and attempt to stab the prison guards...not to kill them...but to poison them.

With all the care that we take not to be infected with E Coli and other diseases that can be transmitted through feces, one would have to wonder why the CDC does not discourage a sexual act that does so.

GM, the sexual abuse cases were 80% homosexual pederasty. The right to "marry" would not have changed their desires for male to male encounters.

The physical union of Mary Cheney and her partner could not create a child. Miles is correct on that point. Plus, the fact that the child will grow up without a father will negatively affect him/her.

Miles mentioned that often, something goes wrong and/or can die when people are involved in illicit relationships. This goes for heterosexuals as well. As Miles said, "its an equal opportunity" towards grief.

Pointing out other bad behavior (the swingers, etc.) does not negate the bad behaviors of the topic being discussed.

McPherson: "Knowing what we know about the marriage covenant, according to the absolute truth of Scripture, as God created it, we must stand up for it, keeping it a holy union as God intended it to be."

GM: "The way to start that would be to edit those parts of the Bible involving Abraham's exploits; pimping out your wife to a king--twice!--doesn't appear to me to show a proper regard for marriage.
"Exercise Biblical Responsibility"!"


All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Bible is an honest book because it records the errors and sins of humankind...even the greatest of biblical characters were not sinless. Only Jesus Christ achieved that.

Just as Miles pointed out, God created marriage to be a holy union. Sin has impared the holiness of such unions. However, that doesn't mean that we should legislate the sin of homosexual behavior and/or force Christian churches to perform same-sex "marriages" in order to further poison it.

mike rucker said...

christine, there are many points in what you posted here that convince me you should never have gotten that "thinking blogger" award...

please step outside the paradigm your brain is boxed into a bit and try to objectively see what you're saying, and not just automatically give both barrels of conditioned responses to whomever crosses (pun intended) paths with you.

before i rsvp to that "band of bloggers" thing, i want to read somewhere that "hammers and nails will not be permitted with those that are admitted"...

mike rucker
http://mikerucker.wordpress.com

Christinewjc said...

Mike wrote:

"christine, there are many points in what you posted here that convince me you should never have gotten that "thinking blogger" award..." (bold mine)

Such as?


Mike wrote: "please step outside the paradigm your brain is boxed into a bit and try to objectively see what you're saying, and not just automatically give both barrels of conditioned responses to whomever crosses (pun intended) paths with you."

Maybe it's your brain that is boxed in! Ever think of that?

BTW, did you view the Pastor's message video? I am going to venture a guess that you did not. Want to know why? Because if you did view the video, your comment may have been quite different.

Don't worry about the "band of bloggers" thing. Remember that old saying...sticks and stones?

I, for one, am not interested in it anyway...

Christinewjc said...

Added the following outline to the post today:


Added on 2/17/08

Outline of Message


Marriage, the Image of God

Passage: Genesis 1
Miles McPherson - February 10, 2008

Pastor Miles was at a park yesterday watching his son play flag football.

A woman with her son came up to Pastor Miles because her son wanted to meet Pastor Miles, seeing as how they go to the Rock. Pastor Miles noticed the woman also had her daughter with her, but the whole time the daughter was just clinging to her mother's leg almost hiding from him. This is a reflection of a connection children have with their mothers. It is a special connection; one that a father may not have with their child the same way a mother does, because children come from their mother.

We begin in Genesis 1 this Sunday as we look at the topic of marriage, the image of God.

In Genesis 1 we see that man is made in the image of God. When God created Adam, he saw that it was not good for man to be alone, and He created Eve from Adam. And God saw that was good!

The Marriage Battle
Though clearly we see from the beginning of Scripture, God created man and woman to be united in marriage with one another, our current culture is striving to take the marriage covenant in a different direction. We are in a spiritual battle, as society pushes more and more for marriage to be legal between couples of the same sex.

In this discussion it needs to be clear that Christians are not and should not be against homosexuals as individual people. Rather it is the homosexual agenda that we must stand up against.

The homosexual agenda is being pushed upon this nation, to the point where it may become illegal for pastors to preach against homosexuality from the pulpit, that is where even such preaching is deemed a crime. In some countries this is already the case. Keep in mind this battle is not about gay people, rather it is a spiritual battle in which we are fighting the devil!

Right and Wrong
We have to know what the basis of our right and wrong is, before we can just decide whether something is right or wrong.

In the Bible we find absolute truth. We can know an objective moral truth. Truth is not relative; otherwise truth can be whatever we want it to be.

Our truth cannot constantly be changing. In regards to homosexuality, there are Christians who are homosexuals, it is not about whether or not God loves homosexuals, and He of course does. However just like every other Christian we have to follow God on God's terms. God designed us with a specific intent, and the devil seeks to destroy that.

The malady of creating our own wrong and rights leaves it up to us, and that puts us on shaky ground. We must refer to Scripture and know what God says on the moral matters and follow that, because that is solid ground.

Man and Woman in God's Image
God calls sex a one-flesh union, two people becoming one, a holy union. However, sex outside the context of marriage is not a holy union.

Male and Female are distinct expressions of the Image of God.

Genesis 1:26-27 states, Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God intentionally created us male and female for a marriage relationship. Genesis 2:18 states, Then the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.

God made mankind in His image. He separated them, and they will strive to become one again.

Genesis 2:21-23 states, So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Sex is a union of shameless one-ness between man and a woman. God calls sex a one-flesh union, two people becoming one, a holy union. However, sex outside the context of marriage is not a holy union.

The devil wants to see us have sex with as many people as we can, because that will scar us at the core of our beings. He wants to break our conscience down, wearing out our God conscience to the point where we have no idea of right or wrong anymore.

Biblical marriage promotes life, for the raising of children by mothers and fathers. Homosexual behavior reduces life. Why? No one can be born out of a homosexual relationship. Marriage is not a governmental issue. It is something the church is the custodian of.

Marriage is designed to be a lifelong commitment. It is clear among statistics that homosexual relationships are mainly about sex, this is attributed to the fact of the amount of sexual partners a homosexual person has a year, regardless of whether he is in a monogamous "marriage" relationship.

Exercise Biblical Responsibility

Knowing what we know about the marriage covenant, according to the absolute truth of Scripture, as God created it, we must stand up for it, keeping it a holy union as God intended it to be.

We need to exercise our Biblical responsibility and our legal right to speak truth and help bring change to our country in this pivotal time. We cannot just sit back and watch these things happen. We must pray and act!

Christinewjc said...

I suppose that my Is Anybody There friend Jaded doesn't care to watch this. It would seem that I have been answered with a big fat silent no one's home!

Christinewjc said...

The case regarding the definition of marriage that Pastor Miles referred to in the video is discussed in an article here.

When all is said and done, I think that Starr makes a good point:

"When it comes to the definition of marriage," Starr declared, "the stakes are simply too high for the issue to be decided by a handful of judges."

MB said...

Christine;

I watched the video. It's interesting and the pastor is certainly a gifted speaker. It's not unlike other messages on this same topic, though. I have to keep going back to your comments about the "gay agenda" and his term the "gay lobby." He goes so far as to say that all of this (seeking to legalize gay marriage) is being done in order to tear down the church and convey the church as intolerant and evil. I don't think this is the case. I do not, for the life of me, think that by allowing gay people certain rights, it will destroy anyone's life or right to serve as they choose. Legal issues do not have to be biblical issues - they can and should be separate!

I will not argue every point...many can articulate the intellectual side better than I. I will, however, always argue the part about respecting lives and families. I hope that should I ever meet you in person, Christine, that you would be as kind to me and my daughter as you would be to anyone else. I suspect that you would, but sometimes your arguments cause me to think that you wouldn't mind if we were suddenly erased from this planet. That makes me sad for all of us.

mike rucker said...

gmpilot wrote:
[christinewjc] wrote: "One wonders how different things might be if modern Western thought included a Mrs. God!"

you, christinewjc, wrote:
Cute idea...but totally unnecessary. The Godhead is comprised of Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Plus, God is spirit so no need for any physical union like a "marriage" within the Godhead.

please tell me you realize that there is no real difference between your statement and his. "God is spirit ... no need for physical union" and yet we have to believe it's a literal father/son relationship? these are all just man's words to try to describe the many-faceted face of God, nothing more.

However, God's relationship with humankind is called a covenant, both in the OT and the NT...

and where is the shared bloodshed between the man and the woman? and which came first, the chicken (husband and wife) or the egg (Christ and the church)? was the church necessary before the garden of Eden and the first husband and wife? did God know things were going to be screwed up before He ever made everything? and, before you open both barrels at me with verses a-plenty, spare me paul's bad theology, please.

The behavior is poisonous and the deviant sexual acts cause disease and death.

a lot of things cause disease and death, christine. please remove yourself from the God-impugning and brother-judging view that everything-bad-that-happens-is-God's-righteous-judgment-on-an-individual. your ability to reason is above this, i hope.

The inmates would create weapons with whatever they could find, smear it with feces and attempt to stab the prison guards...not to kill them...but to poison them.

i don't even want to go there. the parallels of the knife and the feces and the stabbing and the ... well, let's just say there are a lot of, uh, "positions" one might take with this argument. suffice it to say that if a prisoner had access to drano he'd probably put that on there, too, which would allow us to make further jokes about one using a pipe to get his drains unplugged...

With all the care that we take not to be infected with E Coli and other diseases that can be transmitted through feces, one would have to wonder why the CDC does not discourage a sexual act that does so.

you're starting to sound like a nazi, christine. is there nothing you do that isn't perfectly spic and span? does your husband wear pine-sol cologne to bed?

GM, the sexual abuse cases were 80% homosexual pederasty. The right to "marry" would not have changed their desires for male to male encounters.

the ignorance in this statement is at many levels. perhaps we should argue that the only people God calls to serve him in the church are homosexuals - kind of makes the whole ordination of women argument irrelevant, wouldn't you say? or we could say that the only people feeling desires to serve God have really just mistaken what are really pedophilic tendencies? or maybe it's just gas...

Maybe it's your brain that is boxed in! Ever think of that?

all the time. i constantly have to look at what i say i believe, just as much to understand my own limitations as to set an example for those, like you, who have to work with lesser brainpower. and humility.

BTW, did you view the Pastor's message video?

i must confess: when i play an old LP, and the song starts skipping and repeating the same thing over and over, i am guilty of moving the needle over to the next song...

I, for one, am not interested in [the band of bloggers] anyway...

why not? i'd like to meet you and everyone else. if nothing else, to see if one of you might lend me one of those colorful armbands you all wear. you know - the ones with the swastika on them...

mike rucker
http://mikerucker.wordpress.com

Christinewjc said...

Hi MB,

Thank you so much for watching the video and for commenting.

Sometimes, it is very difficult to convey feelings across the internet; especially when all that one has to go by is the person's written words.

I think that if we met we would be very kind and friendly towards each other. And, of course I would be kind to your precious daughter!! She is so adorable...a gift from God.

If you will recall, Pastor Miles said that this issue isn't about gay people. He said we (as a church) love gay people. In fact, he mentioned that there are gay people who attend The Rock church. However, unlike the gay christian movement churches, he does not eliminate, dismiss, nor condone the sexual behavior that is prohibited by God. Just like he doesn't condone heterosexual sins either.

When he speaks about the gay lobby and when I speak about the gay agenda, we are both referring to a very powerful, vocal, well-funded, and aggressive group that wants to change the definition of marriage...no matter who might object. The sermon message was clear about how God views marriage (He did, after all, invent it!!) and how He views homosexual behavior in the Scriptures. As Miles stated, "It is poison. Don't do it. That's all that God is saying."

I might be labeled as sexist for saying this, but I truly believe that homosexual behavior between two males is far worse than between two females. I'm not dismissing the sinful nature of both, however, the disease factor is definitely more lethal on the side of homosexual male sex practices.

When Jesus spoke about the man - who is supposed to be the head of the family - the fact that men often fail in this responsibility speaks volumes for why some women may indulge in lesbian behavior. I'm not saying that it is the only reason, but it does have something to do with it in most cases. Such failure often comes in the form of sexual abuse. I recently read about Ellen DeGeneres and her story that when her mom remarried, her stepfather would sexually abuse her when the mom was away.

I know that you have told me that you have never been abused, yet, "you are still a lesbian." Like I said, that isn't the only reason why women enter lesbian relationships, but many celebrity cases (i.e. DeGeneres, O'Donnell, Heche) have revealed that they were sexually abused at young ages. Abandonment of the mother is another big reason.

Back to the post.

As Pastor Miles pointed out, one of the reasons why the gay lobby wants gay "marriage" is to destroy the normalcy of the traditional mom, dad, child family relationship. They want to normalize same-sex marriage and punish anyone...including church pastors...who disagree and still call it sinful and an abomination. If they can do that, then Satan's battle is won.

As the pastor said, we do not battle against flesh and blood...but against powers and principalities in the spiritual realm.

You do not see this as a problem? Well, as usual, then we will have to agree to disagree.

If we take the subject of abortion, for example, there are people who do not see it as the murder of an unborn child. The pro-life side sees it as murder of the unborn child. Both cannot be right. One or the other has to be correct. Where do we go to find out the absolute truth of the matter? God's Word.

Of course, people can dismiss the laws written in the Bible. They can dismiss sections of the Bible that claim their actions are sin. But that does not negate the truth that the actions of the individual is sin in God's eyes. What one does (or, doesn't do) about their sinful acts and condition determines their salvation status (re: Repentance through Christ's cross) and where they will spend eternity.

Those who don't think that this is big deal will, one day, be subjected to a rude awakening. I don't want to be the type of Christian who is comfortable in my own salvation and who doesn't bother to warn people of their need to repent.

About the chances of meeting each other.

I'm not sure where you live. Back east somewhere? My daughter (age 20) and I hope to schedule a trip back east this summer. We will visit N.J., Virginia, Conn. and Cape Cod. If you live along that route, perhaps we could have lunch?

Consider this. If I hated gay people, as so many commenters here often seem to believe, then why would I ever state that I love my Christian brothers and sisters who happen to be ex-gay? Wouldn't I continue to hate them because of what they once were?

But I can't do that. I wouldn't want to do that. It would be totally unChristian to do that. I love them with the agape love that Christ has given me. I celebrate with them for their release from the bondage of sin that once held them in a stronghold. I express complete joy at their deliverance through Christ! I remember that I, too, am a sinner saved by grace! They could hate me for my heterosexual sins of the past if that's what Christian faith is supposed to be. But we all know that it is not...is it?

Whenever I hear a story or a testimony of a former homosexual or lesbian being saved, both physically and spiritually, through the power of the Cross of Christ, I feel immense joy for them! I welcome them as a brother or sister in Christ and celebrate the fact that their sins are (as the Bible informs us) as "far as the east is from the west."

I also love many unsaved people and/or Christian backsliders who are involved within the throes of unrepentant sin. At the same time, however, I genuinely fear for their spiritual condition. Does this make me hateful, intolerant, judgmental and a bigot?

I'm rambling. Sorry about that. It's just that I see what is happening in our culture and in the gay behavior affirming churches as tools of Satan to keep people in bondage to sin.

You probably disagree with most of this. That is your right. However, I thought that Pastor Miles made the case for marriage as being a union between one man and one woman as not only a physical one, but spiritual as well. It was, and is, God's idea. No other type of sexual relationship is approved of in the Bible. The OT punishments for sexual sin and perversion were severe...even death! The reason? Because, as Pastor Miles pointed out - it's poison. It's deadly. Something dies in the process of committing adultery, fornication, pederasty, rape, pedophilia, homosexuality, bigamy, bestiality etc. etc.

You wrote: "Legal issues do not have to be biblical issues - they can and should be separate!"

Have you been following what is going on in California? Do you know about the passing of SB777? All the Christian children who attend public school will have their God image ruined during the hours of instruction that will promote the gay agenda. It is indoctrination...pure and simple.

If Prop. 22 (which was passed by 68% of the public in 2000) which made the determination that "Marriage in CA is between one man and one woman" is overturned by the court (case being heard March 4th), then we all will be forced to believe that same-sex marriage is acceptable...no matter what one's church says or what the Bible says.

If the "hate crimes" law passes, then pastors like Miles could be thrown in jail for standing up in his own church and sharing that message - "Marriage: The Image of God."

Why?

Because it would be labeled as "hate speech." Can't say ANYTHING negative about homosexuality...even if it is a quote from the Bible! That would be the law of the land.

Guess what that means?

The Gospel of Christ and the preaching of the need for repentance from homosexual behavior will be outlawed or punishable by imprisonment. Many people will be deceived and miss salvation because man will have constructed a new "Tower of Babel" against Christ's commands to "repent, for the kingdom of God is near;" or to "go out and preach the Gospel to every nation." At the top of the structure it will read...well...perhaps I will leave that to the imagination of the readers.

This is a good thing? Not a chance.

MB, I wish you and your daughter well. I pray that one day your eyes will be opened on this issue.

Christinewjc said...

Mike wrote:

gmpilot wrote:
[christinewjc] wrote: "One wonders how different things might be if modern Western thought included a Mrs. God!"

you, christinewjc, wrote:
Cute idea...but totally unnecessary. The Godhead is comprised of Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Plus, God is spirit so no need for any physical union like a "marriage" within the Godhead.

please tell me you realize that there is no real difference between your statement and his. "God is spirit ... no need for physical union" and yet we have to believe it's a literal father/son relationship? these are all just man's words to try to describe the many-faceted face of God, nothing more.


No. They are not just "man's words to try and describe" God. Very briefly, Jesus is an historical person. Fact. No true scholar refutes this.

He began his ministry telling people to repent.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Fact.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jhn 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead proving who He is. Fact.

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." Fact.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

The Trinity aspect of the Godhead was present at Jesus' baptism. Fact.

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jesus said in his prayer to the Father, "Your word is truth. Sanctify them through your truth." Fact.

Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

*******

Mike:
Chris: However, God's relationship with humankind is called a covenant, both in the OT and the NT...

Mike: and where is the shared bloodshed between the man and the woman? and which came first, the chicken (husband and wife) or the egg (Christ and the church)? was the church necessary before the garden of Eden and the first husband and wife? did God know things were going to be screwed up before He ever made everything? and, before you open both barrels at me with verses a-plenty, spare me paul's bad theology, please.


Ahhh! Did you miss that part in the video or did you not view the video?

Wow...for someone who claims to be seeking the truth, see many things wrong with this picture...including that you have already dismissed Paul and his "bad" theology outright.

Yep...that's a humble position to take...for sure. NOT!

Recall that Pastor Miles referred to the book of Leviticus, where the evidence of a virgin bride was the blood on the sheets after the marriage bed consummation.

The bride, the groom and the blood covenant of marriage is revealed; just as Christ is the Groom, and the church is the bride and the blood covenant was shed and revealed through the cross of Calvary.

*******
Mike:

Chris: The behavior is poisonous and the deviant sexual acts cause disease and death.

Mike: a lot of things cause disease and death, christine. please remove yourself from the God-impugning and brother-judging view that everything-bad-that-happens-is-God's-righteous-judgment-on-an-individual. your ability to reason is above this, i hope.


The difference is that such sex acts are due to deviant behavior and can be avoided by avoiding the deviant behavior.

BTW, if you think that what I share here is not reasonable, then why do you visit and ask me questions?

*******
Mike:

Chris: The inmates would create weapons with whatever they could find, smear it with feces and attempt to stab the prison guards...not to kill them...but to poison them.

Mike: i don't even want to go there. the parallels of the knife and the feces and the stabbing and the ... well, let's just say there are a lot of, uh, "positions" one might take with this argument. suffice it to say that if a prisoner had access to drano he'd probably put that on there, too, which would allow us to make further jokes about one using a pipe to get his drains unplugged...



Chris: With all the care that we take not to be infected with E Coli and other diseases that can be transmitted through feces, one would have to wonder why the CDC does not discourage a sexual act that does so.

Mike: you're starting to sound like a nazi, christine. is there nothing you do that isn't perfectly spic and span? does your husband wear pine-sol cologne to bed?


So...I'm a nazi and you're trying to be a comedian? Uh huh...

Chris: GM, the sexual abuse cases were 80% homosexual pederasty. The right to "marry" would not have changed their desires for male to male encounters.

Mike: the ignorance in this statement is at many levels. perhaps we should argue that the only people God calls to serve him in the church are homosexuals - kind of makes the whole ordination of women argument irrelevant, wouldn't you say? or we could say that the only people feeling desires to serve God have really just mistaken what are really pedophilic tendencies? or maybe it's just gas...


GM was referring to the Catholic church sex abuse cases. The fact is, Mike, MOST of the abuse cases were between male priests and adolescent, teen-aged boys (which is pederasty) NOT prepubescent boys - which would be considered pedophilia.

You certainly "blew" that one. Got gas? Perhaps just some hot air?

*******
Chris: Maybe it's your brain that is boxed in! Ever think of that?

Mike: all the time. i constantly have to look at what i say i believe, just as much to understand my own limitations as to set an example for those, like you, who have to work with lesser brainpower. and humility.


O I C, you examine your thoughts, opinions, views, and understanding, and feign a kind of humility to boot...but in the next breath, you label me as having less brainpower and less humility than you?

Reminds me of story. Hope I can recall it correctly. It went something like this:

One day, a man was given a "most humble" pin award by his pastor and church congregation. The next day, they took it away from him because he wore it!

*******
Chris: BTW, did you view the Pastor's message video?

Mike: i must confess: when i play an old LP, and the song starts skipping and repeating the same thing over and over, i am guilty of moving the needle over to the next song...


Ahh! Explains a lot...including your ignorant comments.

Chris: I, for one, am not interested in [the band of bloggers] anyway...

Mike: why not? i'd like to meet you and everyone else. if nothing else, to see if one of you might lend me one of those colorful armbands you all wear. you know - the ones with the swastika on them...


And how might I find you in the crowd? I know! I'll look for your One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest wristband!

MB said...

I think it's silly to imagine that the pastor would be thrown in jail. I think the point I'm trying to make is that if a particular church doesn't want to "marry" gay people, they shouldn't have to. But to disallow certain folks the right...is wrong. It's not a RELIGIOUS issue. What if states could grant civil unions? How do you feel about that?

I know we have had this conversation before, but I'll ask again, respectfully: do you know any gay people? I mean, really know them as friends or as people you like and respect? Being gay or not is NOT a matter of choice. I can't just wake up one day and say, "oh, Christine showed me the way - I'll just stop being gay." It doesn't work that way...it just doesn't. I wish that we could, indeed, meet in person so that you could see the "real-ness" that is me. I embrace a theology that allows me to see God's love for me...and I allow others to seek the same. Judgment isn't part of that equation.

mike rucker said...

christine,

before our little digs at each other get too far out of hand, i hope you understand that any sarcasm or snipes at you are meant for us to laugh with each other, and nothing else. and, if there seems to be no end to them from my keyboard, it's just that you're such an easy target.

on the father / son / mother thing: did you ever think (darn - that word again; i meant to avoid using that here...) that in a patriarchal society - one like Israel had in spades - that "father" and "son" was just an accomodation on reality that may have been to difficult to really explain? and if you're going to press the analogy to a ridiculous extreme, you beg the (silly, but no more silly than your literal position) question, "where's mom?". and, for that matter, why is it "holy spirit" and not "brother" or "cousin"? was he just another applicant for the job, someone outside the family? putting these eternal, spiritual concepts into our language is doomed to failure from the get-go; we just work in concepts that make sense to us. look up "father" and "son" in the dictionary; do they fit?

on the gay-sex-causes-aids thing: christine, i really, really hope you can see not only the judgmental nature of this stance, but also the poor logic and, if not an ignorance of the facts, certainly a refusal to believe them. aids is transmitted through blood transfusions, through heterosexual sex, through any blood-based transmission. if you say, "yeah - but it started with the gay sex crowd," even though it may have spread widely due to that, it seems to have had it's start in monkeys. what were the monkeys doing wrong? eating the banana from the wrong end? no, i don't want to go there, either... also, since you're likely a creationist, how come this virus waited so long to show up? do you think it might have, uh, evolved? or did your God just come in (double entendre pun kind of intended) and do some more creating in order to punish people? i thought He got everything done those first six days, right? did He somehow feel refreshed, rejuvenated, and ready to go back in His shop after that day of rest? obviously, i make some silly comments, if only to help show you the silly nature of yours. but to equate ANYONE'S illness with judgment from God is unfair to the individual, and even less fair to God. if your God does that, then you and i believe in different gods.

on the pedophile / pedastry / pediatrician / pedometer / podiatrist thing: i'm sorry if i'm not as well-versed as you in all the possible sexual practices and their official terms. but i'm a quick learner, and i'm sure i can catch on if you lend me some of those DVDs you keep underneath your mattress...

on the blood covenant thing: i honestly didn't think (that word again...) about that - so i learned something new. whether or not it's applicable, i'm still not sure yet. what did he say the reason for your monthly female blood-flow is - a reminder of the covenant, somehow like the rainbow after the flood? far be it from me to judge God's artistic abilities, but it seems He must have been in a pretty foul mood when He designed the former...

and, finally, on my one-flew-over-the-cuckoo's-nest armband: that was pretty good. made me laugh. so i'm forced to ask, who helped you come up with that? :) maybe, though, i'll be more noticeable in my camel shirt and leather girdle, eating locusts and wild honey... hope you reconsider going - i'll save a few for you.

mike rucker
http://mikerucker.wordpress.com

Christinewjc said...

MB,

You wrote: "I think it's silly to imagine that the pastor would be thrown in jail."

Dear, it is already happening! It happened in countries that have already passed "hate" crimes legislation. Ever hear of Pastor Ake Green? Do a search on his name and you can read his story. It also happened to a pastor/minister up in Canada.

I will give you a pass on this. You have already stated that you are not politically active in such matters. However, for the benefit of readers here, I wanted to point out that Pastor Miles had good reason to share that info in his message.

You wrote: "I think the point I'm trying to make is that if a particular church doesn't want to "marry" gay people, they shouldn't have to."

I agree! But the point is that such a distinction will not be allowed after the passage of same-sex "marriage." I have been keeping track of such issues via ADF (Alliance Defense Fund) and the fact that over 35 states have had their people VOTE for one man, one woman remaining the definition and legal representation of marriage speaks volumes.

The danger is that if the Supreme Court, one day, "legalizes" same-sex marriage, then the votes of the people in those states won't matter. Their opinions, worldviews, moral judgments will be pushed aside in favor of a small amount of people who wish to change the 2,000 year old definition of marriage handed down by God Himself (you do believe it was His idea...don't you?)!

Look what happened with abortion. The Roe vs. Wade decision took away our democratic republic ability for each state to determine whether or not abortion should be legalized.

But I don't want to get too far off topic.

You asked, "I know we have had this conversation before, but I'll ask again, respectfully: do you know any gay people?"

Yes. I know gay people, bi people, ex-gay people and, of course straight people. In fact, one of my good friends who was to be one of my bridesmaids tried to discourage me from marrying my husband! Then, she came out as a lesbian who had the hots for me! Actually, she was bi because all throughout high school and college she chased many guys.

Obviously, that relationship didn't end very well.

My daughter has had some friends whom one could consider "sexually questioning" individuals. I never treated them differently. In fact, one gal had a convo on IM with me because she had never ever heard of the fact that there are ex-gay people...or that it is even possible! See the brainwashing that is being done in the liberal leftist school system?

Back in college, I was on the women's basketball team. Our team trainer was a "closeted" lesbian. We really liked each other (as friends) and though she sometimes felt shunned by others (she also happened to be painfully shy) she confided in me and we had many good conversations.

There was a director with Mary Kay Cosmetics whose partner often came to the meetings that we conducted together (back in the 1980's). She was large and heavyset (as was her partner) and the funniest woman you could ever know! She always made me laugh. I didn't dislike her for being a lesbian. However, I was very disappointed when she made an off-handed comment about people being killed in another country. She said, "I don't care about what is happening over there." I'll never forget the coldness I felt about her statement!

Today, most of my friends are heterosexual couples. Being married for 24 years makes it more likely that we would befriend other couples.

I have also formed friendships with several ex-gay Christians via this blog and email. I met with an ex-gay man (now a Christian ministry leader and married) from Living Waters ministry and tried to get him to speak to the high school's "Gay Straight Alliance." He was turned down...flatly. Why? Just because he had the two, secular humanistic totally intolerable qualities...being Christian and ex-gay.

My husband has business acquaintances who are lesbian. When the "husband" of the two won an award, we both congratulated her and celebrated her achievement...just like anyone else.

MB, I do not share my religious beliefs with people who are involved with my husband's work. It's just not appropriate.

However, there have been times when I had "openings" to share my faith (i.e. at Christmas parties where each person tells what they are grateful for this holiday season). The time a co-worker's wife had a severe illness and I told her she is in my prayers, I also sent her a book written by Max Lucado - "Traveling Light." She really appreciated it!

This blog is my vehicle to share the truth as the Bible instructs us to do.

I realize that your position on being gay is different from any other person's. However, there are those who have become born again in Christ and have successfully left the behavior AND the identity.

When you say that you "embrace a theology that allows me to see God's love for me...and I allow others to seek the same. Judgment isn't part of that equation; I can agree with the first sentence. The judgment part I can half agree with. Of course, God is the ultimate judge of us all. However, He has also instructed us to share the full Gospel. Part of the gospel is bad news....that we "all sin and fall short of the glory of God." As Christian believers, we are called to warn others about God's impending judgment. We are told to inform people of their need to repent. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit of God to convict a person of their sinfulness, confess, repent, and invite Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior into their hearts to transform them.

It is then that we each become a new person. The old flesh-led self is crucified.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I have covered many times before, how people take Jesus' statement "Do not judge" and mistakenly take it to mean we are never to judge anything or anyone. That's just not true!

Many many Bible verses inform us about our need for discernment.

Note what the dictionary says about that word:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This dis·cern·ment (dĭ-sûrn'mənt, -zûrn'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The act or process of exhibiting keen insight and good judgment.

2. Keenness of insight and judgment.

WordNet - Cite This Source - Share This discernment

noun
1. the cognitive condition of someone who understands; "he has virtually no understanding of social cause and effect" [syn: understanding]
2. delicate discrimination (especially of aesthetic values); "arrogance and lack of taste contributed to his rapid success"; "to ask at that particular time was the ultimate in bad taste" [syn: taste]
3. perception of that which is obscure
4. the mental ability to understand and discriminate between relations [syn: sagacity]
5. the trait of judging wisely and objectively; "a man of discernment" [syn: discretion]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

How do we judge rightly? By studying and applying God's Word to our lives!

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If we are not supposed to judge anything while on this earth, then how could we possibly be successful at "rightly dividing the word of truth?"

The Bible tells us at believers will one day judge the angels!

1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

This life is just a preparation for our eternal life with Christ in heaven. While we are here, our responsibilities include sharing the gospel with the lost. This involves expressing the need for repentance. There is no way around that fact!

MB said...

Christine, I'm not sure what happened - did you decide not to post my last comment?

Christinewjc said...

No. I posted all of your comments that were in the moderating bin.

Did you accidently hit "preview" instead of "publish" when you were done? I have done that. Hate when that happens!

I just checked my email notifications too. It isn't there. Any chance that you saved it somewhere? I have learned to save my long comment posts...just in case something happens and all that work goes poof!!

I'm sorry that it didn't post.
I would like to read what you wrote so please post it again?

MB said...

Darn. I know I won't be able to re-create my post as effectively as the first time, but I'll try. Lesson learned about saving the long ones!

First, I hope you know that I really and sincerely ask about your experiences with gay people because I do think it's important to the conversation. If you could see me as your equal, we might be able to speak better about these issues. Because you know that I'm gay, you automatically put us on different planes. You can't imagine that I'm an honest Christian because you just can't believe that there is such a thing as an honest, gay Christian. So we come at the conversation from different places.

Most of the gay people in your life are described as acquaintances...not people you know well or even respect and admire. Most of the time people don't know I'm gay unless I choose to tell them. I think it's so little a part of who I am that it's not the first thing I think to tell people. I would much rather be considered a loving mom, professionally successful, caring friend than just a gay person. I'm certainly not ashamed...being gay just does not make me who I am...

That said, it's hard for me that you can't see us on equal footing. Sometimes I think that if we could take away the garbage that is our immediate judgment about a person and enter into genuine conversation about values and morals, we'd have a better, more effective conversation.

I could be banging my head against the wall, too. I've been known to do that.

I get your need for definition for words like judgment and discernment. For me, it's about respecting other people and getting to a place where judgment about life doesn't mar the conversation as we get to know one another. I would venture to say that you have conversations with other folks who you consider to have sinned with less fervor and judgment than you do gay people. That's a part that I do not understand...

GMpilot said...

Christine: Since you have quoted from Miles' sermon, then I gather that you have seen or heard the entire message. Congratulations! Even the person I first asked to listen to the message and give her opinion about it has not done so yet.

Yeah, ain't that somethin'? Guess everyone else on this blog is too fat and happy to bother with persecuting people.

We have been through the "kill the homosexuals" debate before. I answered you about that already. Plus, did you notice that God doesn't have to really do anything? The behavior is poisonous and the deviant sexual acts cause disease and death. Recall the story about the prison yard. The inmates would create weapons with whatever they could find, smear it with feces and attempt to stab the prison guards...not to kill them...but to poison them.

No, you haven't answered that. The last time we discussed it, you claimed that the divine fatwa had been removed, and I asked you to provide book, chapter and verse which said that. I am still waiting; guess you're too busy taking swipes at Hillary and Obama to look for it.
In any case, sufficient amounts of poison do kill, as I'm sure you know. Lesser amounts can incapacitate a person enough to make them wish they were dead, but it doesn't kill. But you gave an example of prison, where the inmates don't like the guards, and guards don't like being stabbed; it's quite different when it's between two people who are (stupid but) willing to risk it. BTW, how do you know that the CDC doesn't discourage it?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Bible is an honest book because it records the errors and sins of humankind...even the greatest of biblical characters were not sinless. Only Jesus Christ achieved that.

It's an honest book only in a few places, such as where God, too, admits to mistakes. As for Abraham, countless others have followed his example over the centuries. I'm just thinkin' that God must have approved of his actions, or he would've stopped him. Right?

Just as Miles pointed out, God created marriage to be a holy union. Sin has impared the holiness of such unions. However, that doesn't mean that we should legislate the sin of homosexual behavior and/or force Christian churches to perform same-sex "marriages" in order to further poison it.

Horse puckey. You don't even want to allow "civil unions" because you feel that lets the camel's nose into the tent. You want them to remain illegal, and closeted, and invisible, forever and ever, amen. And you want to do it in the name of love. You talk about the churches being 'further poison[ed], but I say:
If the Church insists on excluding even a small part of its community--if its body cannot manufacture enough antitoxins to allow it to live with them--then it deserves to die.

I repeat: how can marriage be "the image of God" when God always shows himself to be alone? (Even if you include the Son and the Holy Ghost, he's still alone. No Mrs. God to wipe his brow after a hard day of smiting unbelievers...poor guy!)
"How come a nice God like you isn't married?"

Christinewjc said...

MB wrote: "If you could see me as your equal, we might be able to speak better about these issues. Because you know that I'm gay, you automatically put us on different planes. You can't imagine that I'm an honest Christian because you just can't believe that there is such a thing as an honest, gay Christian. So we come at the conversation from different places."

Speaking as a Christian, of course we are both equal! We are both sinners in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ!

Politically, in the eyes of the Constitution, "all men are created equal."

So why do you think that I am not your equal or vice versa?

MB, I can see that you are honest. I can see that you perceive yourself to be gay. I can see that it bothers you that I agree with what the Bible states regarding homosexual behavior. But you must realize this. I am as sincere in my beliefs as you are in yours. Because of what the Bible says, I can believe that you are sincerely wrong in your particular beliefs regarding this one issue. Of course, you can continue to believe that I am wrong in my particular beliefs regarding this issue. We can't both be correct, because the beliefs are polar opposites. Again, we must agree to disagree.


MB wrote: "Most of the gay people in your life are described as acquaintances...not people you know well or even respect and admire."

Deb and I were friends for 10 years!! Quite a long time to be considered "an acquaintance."

I only gave you just a few examples of gay and lesbian people who have been in and out of my life over the years.

Yes. As I had stated earlier, I am now in acquaintance with more ex-gay people than gay people. I already stated the obvious reasons for this. It does not mean that I would shun a gay person as a friend if they entered into my life now.

I do not happen to have any Asian friends, just acquaintances. Does that mean that I shun Asians? Does it mean that I am Asian-phobic? Of course not!


MB wrote: "I would much rather be considered a loving mom, professionally successful, caring friend than just a gay person."

Even though we are just internet acquaintances at the moment, over the years of conversation I have perceived you as a loving mom and professionally successful teacher. In fact, you are a better person than I am in the teacher department. I only lasted for two years in that profession! My hat goes off to you for sticking with it!

I see that you are a caring friend, too. It was very evident in the conversations at other blogs in the past.

Remember that phrase that the wizard told the tin man who was searching for a heart in the Wizard of Oz story?

"My friend, a heart is not measured by how much you love...but by how much you are loved by others."

Great line! MB, I can see that you are loved by many! I'm sure that if we met, we would be fast friends. As Christian sisters, perhaps my sincerity about my desire to share the salvation message of the gospel would be clearer. The internet is such an impersonal type of medium. Just the nature of the beast, I guess.

Mb wrote: "That said, it's hard for me that you can't see us on equal footing. Sometimes I think that if we could take away the garbage that is our immediate judgment about a person and enter into genuine conversation about values and morals, we'd have a better, more effective conversation."

I would be happy to enter into genuine conversation about values and morals; or, any other subject for that matter.

The judgment portion of evangelism is just a part of the entire gospel message. It would be dishonest of me to just brush it aside here on this blog. However, I can avoid engaging in such conversations with you if it makes you feel uncomfortable. I'd be glad to do that.

All I can do is warn others as to what the Bible says. It is ultimately up to God to level the final, eternal judgment. I know that's not my place in this life. It is the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God that leads people to salvation. See my new post today.

When I share judgmental-type warnings here, try not to view it as just an attack. Try to see it as a sincere effort to help people realize their need for repentance and salvation through Christ.

As a weak analogy, think of a person who is about to jump off of a tall building where he/she would most likely meet with certain death. I could talk, plead, beg, soothe, comfort, love, share how God loves them etc. But, if I had the chance to get close enough and yank them to safety before they take that plunge, isn't it worth the slight injury that the person might feel having their arm ripped from the socket and dragged to safety?

That is what it feels like to be convicted of one's sin. Every born again Christian believer has been there and experienced that!

Mb wrote: "I get your need for definition for words like judgment and discernment. For me, it's about respecting other people and getting to a place where judgment about life doesn't mar the conversation as we get to know one another."

I'm glad that you recognize the judgment and discernment issue. That's progress in our dialogue.

Your next sentence is beautiful, yet convicting for me. Thank you. I need to be reminded of that...constantly.

I admit. I am weak in that area of evangelism. I am a work in progress, and my conversations with people have helped me tremendously over the last 3 years since I started blogging. Admittedly, I need much more work in that area.

Susan Smith and her relationship with her mentor has been quite the lesson for me. I do not personally have her mentor's gift, but I keep trying to come across in better ways because of what I have learned through Susan's stories about her.

MB wrote: "I would venture to say that you have conversations with other folks who you consider to have sinned with less fervor and judgment than you do gay people. That's a part that I do not understand..."

I think that you perceive it that way because I am attempting to approach both the spiritual needs of homosexuals by sharing what the Bible says with them, as well as battling the homosexual legal agenda going on in our nation. Do you agree?

I have often thought about dropping one type of conversation (the political, secular convos) and only focusing on the spiritual aspects regarding this topic. However, I have found that they cross paths so often these days that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to separate the two.

My harshness against those involved with the political gay agenda (and/or gay lobby) often is not differentiated from sharing the gospel with gay people.

Let me ask you this. Did you feel offended by anything that Pastor Miles said in that video? Do you think that his conclusions were biblical?

He has a new post up that is very interesting.

There is a short video of him speaking plus this:

While the government and school system is promoting the homosexual lifestyle as being normal and safe for our kids, the Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, as well as the CDC admit that the homosexual lifestyle is both dangerous and harmful. "With 70% of the people in this country living with HIV being gay or bi, we cannot deny that HIV is a gay disease. We have to own that and face up to that." says Matt Foreman of the Gay and Lesbian Task Force this being true, as we have all known, why are we teaching our kids that it is normal? What [Why] are we comparing it to heterosexual sex and trying to legalize the marriages that will promote this behavior in couples and families? Finally, isn't hypocritical to criticize those who have been speaking out against this behavior all along?

This is an example of how the gay political agenda intersects with Christian spiritual and moral ethics. Doesn't it?

Sometimes, the truth is the truth. The truth might hurt...and often does. But as Christians, we are not to spin the truth in order to avoid appearing intolerant towards those who would lead us, and our children astray.

That's the way that I see it.