Four aberrant CA Extreme Court judges took it upon themselves to decide to legislate from the bench and trump over 4 million voters in CA who voted for Proposition 22, which states, "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."
I have already written a lot about this subject in previous posts. This article from Human Events recaps a lot of what has happened and what traditional marriage advocates are doing about it.
Today, I want to focus on the dangers, controversies and future silencing effects that legalizing same-sex "marriage" (along with the rabid, homosexual activism that often accompanies such anarchist decisions by judges) would have upon churches that steadfastly hold to the biblical Christian worldview.
Note this excerpt from the Human Events article:
The California court’s citation of Canadian law is particularly troubling because Canada is the country that ought to be voted “Most Happy to Persecute in the Name of Tolerance.” Just last week the Orwellian “Human Rights” Tribunal of Ontario ruled that Christian Horizons, a charity that runs homes for developmentally disabled adults, engaged in illegal discrimination when it tried to ensure that its employees were practicing Christians who accepted Christian sexual teaching on adultery, fornication and homosexual sex. Worse than the $23,000 fine is a government edict that the organization submit to a re-education plan to change the group’s attitudes.
So the second big idea endorsed by the California court is even less promising: Sexual orientation should be treated just like race under the California equal protection amendment, subject to “strict scrutiny.”
For the reasons discussed below, the court added, “we conclude that sexual orientation should be viewed as a suspect classification for purposes of the California Constitution’s equal protection clause and that statutes that treat persons differently because of their sexual orientation should be subjected to strict scrutiny under this constitutional provision.”
With this lawyer-ly sounding language, the California court let the cat out of the bag. Same-sex marriage is not just about letting Adam and Steve get some juicy new government benefits, it’s about inserting into our law the principle that “gay is the new black,” that sexual orientation is just like race and then using the law as a club to repress, marginalize and stigmatize Americans who disagree.
(bold mine)
If that last paragraph does not chill you to the bone...well...it certainly should!
Trouble is, it's not just the problem of "gay is the new black," it's the fact that "gay(s) will TRUMP not just black civil rights, but ALL Americans rights" to disagree with the radical homosexual agenda!
Don't believe me?
It's already happening!
Read this:
An Open Letter to a University President regarding the Suspension of a Black Female Administrator Who Challenged a Comparison between Homosexual Practice and Being Black - by Robert A. J. Gagnon, Ph.D.
On his website, Dr. Gagnon asks all Christians:
When will Christians wake up to the seriousness of the threat to our civil liberties posed by the homosexualist agenda and vote accordingly? Jacobs can attempt such outrages only because he lives in a political culture that on a state, local, and increasingly national level is becoming bold in affirming homosexual practice and abridging the liberties of those who disagree. Just ask yourself whether it makes sense to vote for someone who thinks that you are a hateful, ignorant bigot and the moral equivalent of a racist because you believe that it is unloving to support the dishonoring of one's maleness or femaleness through same-sex intercourse. Ask yourself whether it makes sense to vote for someone who will work to pass legislation (and/or appoint judges) that can get you or your children fired, fined, incur massive court costs, denied educational opportunities or career advancement, denied adoption rights, and/or be forced to teach or be taught the homosexualist agenda.
I have been sounding the alarm bells about this radical agenda for almost eight years now. Christians who just shrug their shoulders about it, stay silent (or, even worse, side with this aberrant, ungodly agenda!) are subjecting our nation to a moral decline like none other!
Don't believe me?
People, there is more to this than meets the humanistic eye. This is a huge, spiritual battle between good and evil. The trouble is, those who THINK they are fighting on the "good side" often have "turned evil for good, and good for evil."
For instance.
Here is an essay which reveals the intent of the radical homosexual agenda:
The militant homosexual agenda is one of the sledgehammers used in America's cultural demolition. This agenda is not just about equal rights - it is revolutionary in its scope and aims to recreate society in its own image. In her book, "The Hidden Homosexual Agenda," Beverly LaHaye wrote, "The homosexual ideology implies the intent to rearrange our perceptions, lifestyles, and legal system. In the strict sense of the term, this change is revolutionary. It requires, if it is to be effectively implemented, the careful and gradual application and transfer of power. The homosexual movement is thus not primarily a philanthropic or educational enterprise, but a hard-nosed political movement bent on changing our society." Nowhere is this truth more shockingly portrayed than in this essay on the homosexual agenda, written by "gay revolutionary" Mark Swift and printed in the Feb. 15, '87 issue of Gay Community News. These excerpts are reprinted from the Congressional Record: "We shall sodomize your sons....We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms...in your youth groups.... Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding.... They will come to crave and adore us. All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men. Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable.... We shall raise vast, private armies...to defeat you. The family unit...will be abolished. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory.... All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men. Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks." What does the future hold for the United States and the rest of the nations swept into the net of the global culture? We may find the answer to this question by sifting the ashes of Sodom and Gomorrah. Written 8/28/97
Next, read a letter by a radical homosexual activist who wrote to WorldNetDaily in April of 2005:
'We are going to win'
Posted: April 15, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By LETTER OF THE WEEK
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
We are going to win. Your ilk will probably be rounding up gays soon and executing us, I am sure.
Well I can assure you no matter what happens in this country, gay people are going nowhere and killing us will be the only way you will stop us.
I will fight people like you until I die. I will give money, I will march, I will sue, I will never stop – never. Every day I breathe will be to advance gay rights. Every success you people have only makes me more determined.
And you people may get what you want for now, but young people don't feel the way you do and they will be making the rules soon enough and they don't hate gay people. It may take 10, 20 or 30 years, but gay people will get everything they want I can assure you. All setbacks now are temporary, trust me. Hating gets tiring and boring after a while and I think people are going to tire of gay bashing very soon.
So keep on writing your blather and spewing because you see Fred Phelps has done more to advance gay rights than any gays have. Each article like this wins us sympathy, so please keep on spewing.
"The good news is God rules and will right all wrongs at the appointed time. Stand firm."
I live by this every day and it is good news that He is on my side – the gay side.
Name withheld
"A very militant queer who is here to stay"
Editor's note: Each week, our editorial staff will consider the letters we receive for possible inclusion in our Letter Of The Week section. Letters will be evaluated primarily on content, clarity, and conciseness. WorldNetDaily reserves the right to edit letters for clarity, brevity, spelling, grammar, AP style and foul language.
That "very militant queer" (as he labeled himself) thinks that God is on his side? Why would he think such a thing? I wonder if he really even acknowledges God or just quotes a Bible verse as a ruse. Does he really see God approving of his "militant queer" agenda? An agenda which is so perverse that its stated goals include the ones listed in the previous quoted text above?
He and the rest of his "militant queer" army are in desperate need of prayer!!
We are now seeing how this issue affects all of us. The culture war against immorality that we are now living in is getting worse all the time! Immorality (heterosexual as well as homosexual sin) will impact our lives in severely negative ways when unrestrained evil is allowed to flourish.
We see the signs of the times all around us today. But this particular issue is now front and center in the cultural war going on in America today. We are increasingly seeing the terrible results of how denying a Bible-based morality ultimately leads to depravity, disease and death.
The question remains, why would any Christian church embrace this agenda?
The answer is that evil is being cloaked through a ruse of "equal rights." Homosexuals who willingly refuse to see homosexual behavior as sin and willingly want to continue practicing homosexual behavior while claiming they are Christians, may not have ever been saved in the first place!
At the same time, they use Jesus' love, grace and mercy while completely rejecting the need for confession, repentance, and acknowledging their sin at the foot of Christ's cross.
At the same time, several groups have taken up the cause of silencing those who follow the biblical moral laws against homosexual behavior - even visiting such churches to get them to agree to their agenda! People who have been duped into depravity are trying to drag others into that pit of despair with them!
There are groups such as "Soulforce," whose goal is to force their heretical false gospel views upon churches that are beholding to the absolute truth of God's Word, including when it comes to regarding the subject of homosexual behavior. Such groups twist Scripture and its timeless meaning in order to deceive others into thinking that such behavior is not identified as sin in the Bible.
GCMWatch has a GREAT video of Bishop Harry Jackson exposing Soulforce for what they REALLY are all about:
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8
The eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong to those whose hearts are fully committed to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
HT's: Dr. R. Gagnon
Human Events
GCMWatch
Posts
22 comments:
WOW! Mark over at ChesterStreet has an excellent essay which is directly related to this post.
Consider two of the greatest threats to Christian faith - notice any similarities?
Excerpt:
The purpose of this paper is to specifically examine two movements within the Christian faith; the Arian movement of the early church and the modern day teaching’s of the gay Christian movement. The research will reveal both movements require and desire the authority found in scripture; however, both movements must re-define the person and purpose of Jesus and exclude scripture in order to maintain their positions. If the word of God is complete and sufficient for reproof, correction, and for training in righteousness - 2 Timothy 2:16-17, then the last place one should seek Godly wisdom is outside those texts. Current and historical assaults on the Christian faith have in essence provided a double-edged sword; on one side it is an opportunity to strengthen its theological message, on the other side it is a means of corrupting a faith that has been delivered to us and sealed by the blood of Christ. Arianism posed one of the greatest threats to the early Christian faith by denying the full eternal deity of Christ - the very foundation of the faith. The gay Christian movement adherents, albeit without a single leader’s voice, pose no less a threat to the Christian faith. The gay Christian movement’s positions appear to walk in harmony with the same subtleties of Arius’ teachings; it sounds logical and reasonable, however, it is a direct assault on Jesus Christ, the word of God, and the gift of salvation.
At this point it would be best to make a couple of definitions clear. For the purposes of this paper, the “gay Christian movement” will refer to those who support and celebrate same-sex sexual relationships within the Christian faith. In addition, it would also be profitable to define “heresy”. One definition is (Gr. Hairesis, “choice”) “A view chosen instead of the official teachings of a church. Such a view is thus regarded as wrong and potentially dangerous for faith”. [4] For the purposes of this paper, the word “heresy” and “false teachings” will both be used as a chosen view that is not scripturally supported and regarded as wrong and potentially dangerous to the integrity and saving message of the Christian faith.
Both Arianism and the gay Christian movement adherents divorce Jesus from the Old and New Testament texts and inevitably find themselves worshiping a creation instead of a Sovereign God’s incarnation into the world – Jesus Christ. Arius had already assumed his position on Christ in spite of the exalted titles he applied to Him.[5] Similarly, the gay Christian movement has already established its conclusions; same-sex sexual relationships are blessed and holy before God, or God is simply unconcerned with human sexuality and thus formulate their doctrine and scriptural interpretations or scriptural abandonment accordingly. In both instances, each movement starts off with a desire to conform scripture to meet their preconceived conclusions.
Read it all!!
I have had conversations and arguments with adherents to the gay christian movement in the past. Most have ended with the person caught up in homosexual behavior denying that they are committing heresy.
One such conversation is currently going on in the comment section over at Miles McPherson's blog in the Why Support Biblical Marriage?
The argument of commenter "Tom" seems to be that a monogamous, committed homosexual relationship is somehow blessed by God. As you will see, commenter Carlotta and I present biblical proof that his thinking on this issue is skewed towards his "feelings" about it and not based on the absolute Truth of God's Word.
Just as Mark's post (see link above) describes at the end:
Excerpt:
The importance of having a proper biblical understanding of Jesus in relationship to God cannot be overstated. Failing to understand who Christ is has enormous theological consequences. For instance, consider the position of Rev. Mel White co-founder of Soulforce, a gay Christian organization with this mission statement: “The mission of Soulforce is to cut off homophobia at its source - religious bigotry[8]:
We gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians take the Bible seriously, too. Personally, I've spent more than 50 years reading, studying, memorizing, preaching, and teaching from the sacred texts. I earned my master's and doctoral degrees at a conservative biblical seminary to better equip myself to "rightly divide the word of truth." I learned Hebrew and Greek to gain a better understanding of the original words of the biblical texts. I studied the lives and times of the biblical authors to help me know what they were saying in their day so I could better apply it to my own.
For example, many Christians don't know that:
Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.[9]
Beware of the subtleties indeed; there is not “one million verses” in the Bible, there are thirty one thousand one hundred two.[10] Furthermore, this line of reasoning from a professed follower of Christ, just like Arianism, divorces Jesus from God in both function and revelation. Jesus, therefore, is in no way the eternal God of the Hebrew scripture and like the school Arainism, Jesus’ identity becomes a function of human wisdom, not the eternal word of God. Both the gay Christian movement’s adherents as well as the early Arians will use scripture to defend their views, however, both adherents must dismiss at least as much scripture to maintain those views.
You will notice (when you read the entire essay at Mark's blog), that both the heresy of the Arians and the contemporary heresy of the gay christian movement "must dismiss at least as much scripture to maintain those views.
This part about Soulforce's founder - Mel White - really chilled me to the bone!
In Rev. White’s article noted above, his forth premise is; “The Bible is a Book about God—not a book about human sexuality”[23]. Adopting the view that the Bible promotes the supremacy of love or compassion over the word and law of God, Rev. White has just annihilated the very source of love and compassion, and more important, the very truth taught in the ministry of Christ. When human sexuality is divorced from God’s word, it must then be divorced from truth. It allows him to create his own laws governing human sexuality. If in fact God’s word is employed to strengthen his position, it is thoroughly corrupted to meet a preconceived conclusion; “Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times”.[24] Notice now the Holy Spirit is used by Rev. White, as if the Holy Spirit is also divorced from Jesus – subtle indeed. His line of reasoning may sound logical and reasonable to some folks, but this kind of unbiblical interpretation of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit resembles that of a buffet of gods; people pick and choose which god suits their particular appetite, rather than submit their appetites to the eternal truth of the one eternal word of God. It encourages, at a minimum, a “loose” understanding of God’s word - it is after all an “ancient” document and the “holy spirit” tells me so.
Notice that White is using what he believes is the "holy spirit" telling him so!
Sorry Mel, you are guilty of using a doctrine of demons!
Perhaps, dear readers, you may think that is too harsh to say. Please PLEASE read Mark's entire blogpost. If you then still think that I have been inaccurate in my assessment of the Soulforce movement, then come back here and tell me why you think that way.
As Bible-based Christians, it is our DUTY to point out heresy and apostasy within the body of Christ. There are MANY WARNINGS in Scripture to do that VERY THING! Why? Because the eternal salvation of those who are following error is at stake. It is NOT for the humanistic reasons often stated by those like White who wish to claim "homophobia," "bigotry," etc. That is an excuse - a ruse from the Enemy of God to keep the unsaved in permanent bondage to strongholds of sin!
Mark started his post with verse from the book of Jude. It is not a coincidence that Jude's warnings occur just before the last book of the Bible - Revelation.
Jude's warnings point towards "what the Spirit is saying to the churches" in the first three chapters of the book of Revelation. Seven churches either being praised, or, in most cases, condemned because they have turned away from their first love - Jesus Christ! Such warnings were not meant only for the churches in that era - they were also meant for our churches TODAY!
Do not be fooled! Do NOT meet in a church that is involved with heresy and apostasy!
Notice that the church of Pergamos in Revelation was guilty of "hold[ing to] the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Notice that Jesus exclaims He hates the doctrine of the Nicolaitans!! Read about it here!
Rev 2:12 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].
Wow! All of this is absolutely mind blowing to me Christine. What is so mind blowing is the amount of responsibility that we as Christians have in debuking this growing heresy.
It's one thing to be a gay activist in support of homosexuality period. But it's another, when it's done under the pretense of "Christian!" The twisting and rehashing of God's word to support "Gay love" is an abomination and is deadlier than homosexuality without the Christian title.
That is what you and I both witnessed and participated in our online discussion with Tom on Pastor Mile's blog.
I'm going to do more reading from the links off your post to really equip myself and becoming even more prepared to deal with this growing heresy.
Thanks for all the info because it's all been truly great!
cm
You know what Carlotta? I need to THANK YOU for being willing to participate in this heresy battle going on within Christian churches today!
You have stated it so well when you wrote:
"The twisting and rehashing of God's word to support "Gay love" is an abomination and is deadlier than homosexuality without the Christian title."
Unfortunately, so many Christians (well-meaning, of course) have fallen hook, line and sinker for the homosexual activists rhetoric. They have been deceived into believing that they are being "loving" to homosexual people when they condone unrepentant sin!
This onslaught of lies are being leveled both AT the church (believers, not a building or denomination) and WITHIN the individual churches (as can be seen by Soulforce's efforts.)
It is not easy to fight against this. As you know, (because of your stand against Kwanzaa) there are opponents who will hurl insults and even death threats at those who stand up for the true gospel of Jesus Christ and stand firm in the Truth of God's Word
Just recently, I had been alerted by a fellow Christian friend about a post where I have been verbally attacked - on a homosexual man's "MySpace" website. He wrote a diatribe against me and the information that I share about the gay "christian" movement. He fancies himself some huge "scholar" because of his education in theology.
Well guess what? Whether he ever learns this or not, The Word of God convicts him of his errors, lies, heresy and rhetoric of spin. His lack of knowledge about God's Word was very evident in his false interpretation of Scripture within the comments. I plan to counter them on this blog this week.
God's Word stands FOREVER! No one man could ever defeat it! They continue to try, but they ALWAYS fail because there will ALWAYS be a remnant of the faithful who will continue to guard the truth and expose any heresy that comes up against the Truth!
As Jude 3 tells us (NASB)
We are to
...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
I truly admire your faith and courage in such endeavors, Carlotta! God bless you and keep up the good fight!
In Jesus,
Christine
I watch from afar most days - just can't get caught up in the conversation because I have so much going on. I do have to say, though, that it just seems like groups are butting heads, both with the belief that they trust what they believe...for their own lives. Because this comes into conflict with what someone else believes, people get mad. Here's a question for you, Christine: would you be willing to compromise at all on this issue? If so, why are you promoting discussion? It seems that you might just say what you feel because when someone opposes you, you are unwavering. I have accepted that about you and I know that I likely will not change your attitude about it. But at some point, don't you just need to change your strategy? I mean this very lovingly - hope you can see that.
Hi mb,
Nice to see you here again!
I sense that you grow weary of reading what I write at this blog. However, you still visit and occasionally comment. I am led to ask, "why is that?"
I think that I may know the answer. You want to see me, and others, compromise on this issue.
The way that I see it is that your side often lives in compromise! Not on all issues, of course, but definitely on this issue.
In regards to your specific question to me, I would have to say that it depends on what kind of compromise you are talking about.
If it means being willing to meet and discuss with those who disagree with me on this issue - I can say that I have already done that. I think I have already posted about it here in the past. If you did not happen to read about it, then I would be glad to share it again.
If it means compromising the Word of God, then I would have to say no.
I realize that you perceive my views as my opinions and personal beliefs. Therefore, you separate "my views" from what Scripture teaches all Christians.
God's Word does not allow compromise on the issues of sin, repentance, and salvation through Jesus Christ. People can (and do) personally chose to compromise on certain issues - especially those that do not allow them to continue in a (their) "favorite sin(s)." However, it is ONLY through the transforming result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God that leads a person into the sanctification process.
The gospel revealed by the Bible tells us that sin must be confessed, repented (which means not only remorse for sin, but willingly turning away) by the individual, followed by acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. This is the ONLY WAY for the Holy Spirit of God to indwell believers.
What we are doing in this process (of being born again) is agreeing with God that we have a sin nature that only He can rescue us from - through belief in the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ.
I realize that you probably know all of this. I include it here for the specific purpose that new visitors here may need to read it.
You also asked me, "why do I promote discussion" on this issue here at my blog. It is because many Christians are totally unaware of what the Bible truly says about homosexual behavior and how those involved in that sin (or any other) need to repent in order to be saved.
There is so much misinformation out there these days. Thus, it is CRUCIAL to get the facts and truth to people.
That is why I write this blog. That is why I expose heresy whenever, and wherever it rears its ugly head.
I have spoken up against Rick Warren's flawed theology (which, admittedly I once embraced and almost compromised on.) I did two studies on the book at my home. However, I KNOW that the Holy Spirit of God alerted me to the subtle heresy (even before I knew all of the facts about it) during the video of Warren saying the "prayer of salvation." He left out the CRUCIAL PART OF NEEDING TO REPENT OF SIN before asking Jesus into the heart. Two women at the leaders meeting were alarmed by this as well.
Perhaps it may be viewed as a kind of "compromise" because I went ahead and did the study after all. However, I DID add in the need to confess one's sin and repent at the foot of the cross of Christ whenever I gave the group the opportunity to be born again in Christ. As it turned out, all of the study attendees were already Christians.
Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to show you a completely different example of how easily heresy and error can "creep into the churches" - especially when the pastor compromises on what is written in Scripture.
Lastly, you wrote:
"But at some point, don't you just need to change your strategy? I mean this very lovingly - hope you can see that."
What do you suggest as a "change in my strategy?"
I do see your comment as being presented in a loving way. Thank you! I really appreciated that.
I admit that my posts and responses are not always presented in a similar manner. The Lord is continually working on me about that! ;-)
I appreciate you coming by to read and occasionally comment. I do enjoy our conversations and I hope that you feel led to continue them.
Hope that you and your beautiful daughter are doing well!
Love in Christ,
Christine
Thanks for your extremely encouraging words Christine! And just to know that we have that support of one another is just one of the many ways that our Lord strengthens and prepares us for these ongoing spiritual battles!
The things you have said to me, I say right back to you. As you continue your courageous stands, the heat will become hotter as you well know. But I know you have no fear because you know the Lord is standing with you!
Keep up the great work Christine and again, thanks for the words of encouragement!
carlotta
I wonder often why I "keep coming back." Mostly, I think it has to do with my upbringing in the evangelical world. It's such a familiar place, yet a place from which I have obviously experienced harsh disconnect. I think I'm drawn because I feel such a sense of peace about God's love for me and I wish that I could help you get there, too. Maybe that's why I keep coming back, but I'll think on it some more...
As for changing your strategy, I don't know what I meant, other than to say that maybe this is more a place for you to just share your views with those who agree with you. If you're not willing to discuss the tough stuff with dissenters - with a willing heart to try and understand - maybe you should just stick with the folks who agree with you...or ask the rest of us to leave. :) I don't know.
I do remember our conversation(s) about "compromise" and I hesitated to use that word because I know it evokes a strong response. I guess I just wish that somehow we could meet in the middle - gather the strength to be respectful and kind and wish each other well, no matter what. I'll always be a Pollyanna...
But there ARE "Evangelicals" who now agree with you. At least they believe and label themselves as such.
I am glad that you have peace about God's love for you. Many people don't!
I have "the peace that surpasses all understanding" as the Bible informs us. The reason I share what I do at this blog is for others to recognize that such peace does not come from our own thoughts and worldview - it comes from following God's thoughts "after Him" and submitting to His Will for our lives. Despite all of the turmoil that is going on in our nation and around the world, God is, ultimately, in control. We have confidence that in the end God wins! Jesus has said this himself when he told us that "in this world you will have tribulation. But take heart! For I have overcome the world."
I discuss "tough stuff" with dissenters all the time. Some stay, some leave. Some leave mad - probably because they can't counter the Truth in God's Word anymore. So, they retreat. So be it.
I have discovered that no matter how lovingly one handles the homosexual issue, people will view it with their own humanistic eyes and see it as "bigotry," "homophobia," and "intolerance." Even one of the authors of the book "Unchristian" shared such an encounter with a gay guy friend and ended up having to fall all over himself with apologies for Christians "treating him (and others) so badly." But the truth DOES OFTEN HURT...especially when it comes to the topic of repentance for sin. That is why the gospel of Christ (and Christ himself) is often rejected - because he exposes that "their deeds (including mine!!) are evil."
The "Unchristian" author could not escape the fact that he had to be truthful with his gay friend that the Bible calls homosexual acts sin. Nothing that he could say to ease into this fact would sit well with his friend. No matter how much he told his gay friend that loves him and that Jesus loves him; therefore, through repentance there is hope and he can be forgiven...the gay friend read it as condemnation.
Well...we are ALL under condemnation before we come to the cross with humility and repentance! My sin is no less than yours. Your sin is no less than mine.
However, I don't go around (like Soulforce does) and preach that former sins that I used to engage in are "blessings from God."
I know that we will probably never agree on this issue. You think you are correct. I think I am correct. The Word of God is the plumbline to establish, ultimately WHAT is truth and WHO is truth (Jesus) - NOT WHO - is correct between the two of us on this issue.
I can only be perfectly honest about this, mb. For me to change my feelings and say, "yes...homosexual behavior by Christian believers is no longer a sin" would be imposing a humanistic feeling upon the topic and ignoring God's absolute truth as revealed in Scripture.
Can't do that. Just as I couldn't say that my past fornication "is no longer a sin" in God's eyes.
As evangelists sharing the gospel, we do need to go out and tell the world about Christ. However, God's Word doesn't really allow any kind of "meeting in the middle" through a goal of compromise of the truth. Politics often does that, but not the Word of Truth.
There are people in my life who I KNOW are involved in the throes of sinful sexual conduct. They will need to answer to God for that. I still love them. I still pray for them (even more now). However, I could not ask God to not see their sin as sin just because I love and pray for them. What I do is pray that one day they will repent and turn back to God.
I'm rambling...sorry.
Unsaved people have accompanied our family to church many times over the years. One, in fact, took seven visits to raise his hand in repentance!! (Yes...I peaked). But the angels in heaven rejoice each time just one person becomes born again in Jesus Christ!
One young lady had never been to church and didn't understand it all. Still praying for her to come to the knowledge and offer of salvation through Christ. I pray for the salvation of lost souls every day; whenever the Holy Spirit brings a person to mind (prayers for health reasons, family problems, etc.) I also pray fervently that they will come to know Christ as Savior and Lord.
Jesus is God's ultimate gift to us. To know Jesus is the best thing that can happen to a person.
Our days on this earth are numbered. We never know when our Lord will take us. However, when we know that we are His, we can know our destination into His Kingdom is assured. There is nothing more important to realize on this earth than that!
Back to your comment.
People leave blogs for all sorts of reasons. Many do not have the time to read and/or comment. Sometimes, months go by before I see all of the blogs on my blogroll! Those who leave because they disagree with what I post have every right to disagree...and leave! However, those who stay and continue to read what is shared here (like Susan Smith's latest awesome newsletter!) are educated and blessed - not because of what I write, but because God's Word in being shared here.
Lastly, you wrote:
"...gather the strength to be respectful and kind and wish each other well, no matter what."
I think that despite our disagreements, we do accomplish that. Don't you?
BTW, the young woman we brought to church with us (Easter Sunday) enjoyed the service - even though she later told my daughter that she didn't understand it all. We took her out to lunch with us that day. She told my daughter that she would attend, again.
Apparently, she felt welcomed and loved the music and the message - even though she wasn't prepared to make a decision for Christ just yet.
This is what evangelism is all about. At any given time, in any church, there are believers and the unsaved in attendance at the same time.
Jesus told us that "he didn't come for the righteous...but for sinners."
I recently read a great essay written by Max Lucado on that subject. I will find it and post it here.
You are such a closet dyke that it's not even funny. People who overly talk and discuss homosexuality are more likely to have those tendencies. You're borderline obsessed with the topic. What about rape? What about murder or some other sin? Do you have a job Christine? Or does your husband keep you nice and safe in your home without you stepping a foot outside to see what the real world is like?
My suggestion: get a job and see what life's really about. You might be quite surprised.
P.S. It's tacky to make the first comment on your own blog. But hey, that's your thing.
Debated whether or not to post "closet case's" comments. Decided to post them since his/her disparaging remarks were not directed at God or anyone else commenting here. They were directed at me.
We can wonder if this was a hit and run troll post, or someone who reads here (a bit of a hint is the "overly talk and discuss homosexuality" comment)and just couldn't hold back from blasting me about my posts anymore.
What does this person know about me? Why is he/she so angry?
Lots of questions.
Should I keep his/her comments up? Or place them in the trash bin where they probably belong?
Just had a thought come to mind...Kevin Kaatz? Is that you?
You wrote "I think that despite our disagreements, we do accomplish that. Don't you?"
Yes, mostly I think we do. :)
MB,
Your comments up there caught my attention. Taking you at your word that you mean what you say lovingly, and hoping you will take mine that I comment back in like fashion, I wonder if you could help me to understand what you are really asking for? There are a few things that you could help me out with if you would.
First off, I'm not at all sure what you mean by compromise. If that sounds sarcastic, I assure you it is not meant to be. It's just that I have honestly never heard anyone ask me to "compromise" on this subject that was willing to compromise their own position. Could you give me an example on the other side of the subject where any compromise has been offered or adopted?
It seems to me that people once tried to adopt a compromise position with regards to the issue of sexual preferences (and sexual liberation between heterosexual couples for that matter). When I was growing up, the battle cry (for lack of a better term) was that what went on between consenting adults was nobody else's business. Believe it or not, I actually agree with that. I supported that position. It bought no peace and no good will. Instead it resulted in the demand that society must approve the gay lifestyle, teach as moral in the schools, and declare it equal to marriage. I respectfully submit that compromise has not been good for the church or for society at large.
The other thing you mentioned that piqued my interest was the idea of discussion. You gave the impression that Christine seems to invite discussion but not to carry through. Again, I am genuinely puzzled by the statement. I have seen her consistently answer those who disagreed with courtesy (at least the times that I've looked in). Now, as she mentioned, she is not moved from Biblical principles, but how does that equate to a lack of discussion? Is it your opinion that it's not a real discussion unless she yields?
I have been to a number of sites (Cruel Virgin, Deb, Fatty) that talk about open discussion, and then the comments start getting deleted and the swear words and personal attacks get going. I'm genuinely curious about what you are after, and I'll discuss with you about it as long as you care to.
Oh, and Closet Case - Funny thing about scriptural truth, or any truth for that matter: It is completely independent of who is speaking it. Every nasty word you wrote up there about Christine could be true (though I doubt it), and it would make no difference. Scripture is truth because God said it, not because Christine, or I or anyone else did. I don't think your real argument is with her.
@ Gary Baker
amen bro.
@ all,
We all come to a fork in the road of our lives - MY way or GOD'S way.
Thanks Christine! The word of God is not optional - never has been. You have stood strong sister.
TRUTH is not subjective - it is ablsolute and has been delivered to us - not a man made invention. Truth is objective - we can debate it, pray on it, discuss it, etc.. it will always boil down to that fork in the road.. OUR way or God's way. Truth - God's word, is always independent of desire and emotions, that folks is Truly tolerant!
Hey Mark,
Could "closet case" also be "marksboyfriend" at your blog? Similar questions were asked about you and I having a "job."
Is that our old friend Deb? The personal attack queen?
Gary...sounds like you are throwing pearls of God's wisdom towards some people who refuse to hear, see, and confess their need for repentance!
Cruel Virgin? Deb? Fatty??
Sounds like a mean crowd...
Christine--Closet Case is definitely not me. If you read anything I write, you would see that I don't call people names like Dyke, unlike your friend Mark who likes to call people moron. If you wanted to know if that nasty comment was from me, all you had to do was send me a message instead of guessing.
There is another "Kevin" who has posted comments here. I am guessing that you are Kevin Kaatz?
If you read through this thread, then you do realize that I found out who "closet case" was through Mark's site.
I have seen some of your critical posts about me via Technorati. I have thought about responding, but realized quite quickly that such conversations are often futile. Case in point. MB disappears and drops convos when they aren't going in the direction that she favors. The same thing happened with "Deb."
Recently, Joe Brummer dropped responding to my comments over at Mark's blog.
So, what's the point in attempting to dialogue with people who drop conversations anyway?
Mark is Mark. I don't tell him what to do or say. If he thinks someone is being a moron, he should have the right to say it.
I have found many liberal leftists (gay and straight) often lie about Christian believers and their motives ad nauseum. If they lie, why shouldn't I call them liars?
I haven't found many gay people willing to hold civil conversations with me. Usually, those that do start a conversation just end up running in the other direction whenever the truth of the Bible is shared.
Recently, a comment I posted over at "The Political Spectrum" was promptly deleted. Looks like they are friends of yours? I saw a link to your blog there.
It is commendable that you do not personally resort to name calling towards those with whom you disagree. I do understand that in the heat of debate, people can get angry and say things that they may later regret (been there...done that!).
However, in my case, just sharing Bible verses that condemn the sin of homosexuality gets me labeled as a "hater," "bigot," "intolerant," as well as many other worse adjectives.
It is unfortunate that these two sides continue in bitter conflict and dialogue instead of continuing conversations a thoughtful and civil manner. Such is life...I guess.
Christine,
Yes, I am Kevin Kaatz.
I can't speak for Joe, but I am surprised that he left any comments at Mark's blog, especially after reading what you wrote:
"I have found it to be a waste of time attempting to respond to Joe or that Katz guy. They are two peas in the same liberal-licentious-speak pod - all talk and absolutely devoid of any godly wisdom."
So on the one hand you say it is a waste of time to respond, and then you complain when Joe stops responding. There is a mixed message here. I don't know why Joe stopped responding, but I do know that he just moved, so that might be the reason.
And yes, Rob and Justin at The Political Spectrum are my friends. Your comment was deleted because Rob has a policy that people are not to evangelize at his blog. And it is Rob and Justin's blog--if he wants to delete a comment, he should be free to do it.
Kevin
Kevin,
The situation with Joe dropping conversations with me has happened at least once, if not twice before. It seems to be a habit with him. It happened several years ago, when I just started this blog, and since then I have surmised that attempting to have a conversation with him was just a waste of time. In one case, I recall noticing that he deleted an entire thread.
From what I have read about the both of you, I understand that you are a person who is interested in "religion", while Joe is more interested in atheism/agnosticism/skepticism. Of course both of your worldviews conflict with any Christian who holds to a biblical worldview. That is one subject that you are in agreement with.
How ironic that the "political spectrum" guys get to blabber on about the "religious right" Christians; yet, when one comes along to counter their errors they use the claim of "not allowing evangelism" at their blog. What a poor excuse they use to censor those that they like to mock.
Hi Christine,
As I said, I can't speak for others. But I can say that I have had comments deleted by not only Mark but also by DL Foster. This just happened recently. The only comments I delete are ones that I am asked to delete for various reasons or that are pure spam (unfortunately MSN Spaces doesn't allow comments to be checked before they are posted to my blog).
Anyway, thanks for letting me comment here. We've had our differences, but as I have said to Mark, the internet is a strange place and I doubt that people would say the things they say to people's faces. I try to remember that (although sometimes I fail pretty miserably).
Take care,
Kevin
Yes. Bloggers have the right to delete comments. However, my post at the "Spectrum" wasn't only about evangelism. If it was, I would have shared much more than I did (including John 3). What I wrote was directed at their inaccuracies concerning the views of the "religious right" and conservative Christians.
Using the excuse of "not allowing evangelism" to censor replies to their errant views about Christians is just one more example showing them to be devoid of willingness to share any truth.
People like them don't like it when they are shown to be in error. Rather than compete in a well-reasoned worldview debate, they saw the emptiness of their lies and took the easy way out. I've got a suggestion for a new motto at their blog - "When we can't compete, we just delete!"
Occasionally, I have been forced to delete comments here, too. I do not tolerate taking the name of the Lord in vain.
I have had several derogatory comments left at this blog and in my guestbook. In fact, I have had several death threats aimed at me.
I have allowed comments that spew hatred towards myself. I think it shows how low a person can get when they have to resort to such vitriole rather than address what has been written.
You are probably right about the "anonymous" atmosphere of the blogosphere. People would most likely not be so brave in person.
When I lose my temper and say things that I shouldn't, I admit it and apologize.
I can certainly relate to your "failing pretty miserably" comment. Sharing Christ with others can be difficult. The negative views of non-Christians often makes it out to be that way. People aren't willing to change their opinions very often. Sometimes, nothing a Christian can say (no matter how lovingly it is said) will ever change another's preconceived notions. IMHO, I see Joe Brummer is an example of this. He has even admitted his unwillingness to look past his opinions and preconceived notions over at Mark's blog.
Thanks for letting me know why my comment was deleted at the "Spectrum" blog. Such rejection speaks volumes about those who claim to be leftist "gay" Christians, yet reject Christ's commandment to evangelize.
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