For Sunday, June 15th:
Just a quick "Happy Father's Day" to all the dads out there in blogland! Hope you have a wonderful day with family and friends!
May God bless each of you, and your families on this special day!
Christine
P.S. Be sure to read Steve Camp's inspiring Father's Day post:
A Father's Day Tribute and Prayer in Song
*******
The following video is a perfect example if how easily people who have not been born again in Jesus Christ and have not studied God's Word can be lured into a false religion. Today, even those who would call themselves "Christians" are being lead and lured into "another gospel."
Oprah's False Religion Video
[Important Note: I am not familiar with the book that is advertised at the end of the video. Therefore, I cannot endorse it. I have mainly presented this video in order to expose the "church of Oprah" and it's deceptive teachings. Also, I DO endorse "The Truth Project" which counters all of the errors and heresy that Oprah and her guru are selling to the public.]
The fact that only 9% of Christians hold a biblical worldview is astounding to me! However, with all of the false gospels, heresy, and lures into religious pluralism, it is no wonder that many are being fooled into deception.
"The Truth Project" for Christian believers is absolutely necessary in today's confused world of religious pluralism.
Jesus warned us:
Mat 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Oprah, her guru, and all of those who follow after their false religion have been deceived! That video reveals to us that she believes that her and her guru's own thoughts and their own made up New Age ideology are supposed to be superior to the revelation of Jesus Christ!
Now THAT is the utmost in deception and arrogance!
We must pray that she, as well as all of those currently being lured into her deception, will have their eyes opened before it's too late. We must pray that they will be introduced to the true gospel and rescued through true faith in Jesus Christ!
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34 comments:
Me:
This is a horribly scary reality about way too many people and what they think of Christianity. ( the same people that took God out of our schools)
.
Now for the MSM reaction:
In other news, Lucy yanked the football out from under Charlie Brown just as he was about to kick it, much to Charlie’s surprise.
(borrowed from LGF)
"The fact that only 9% of Christians hold a biblical worldview..."
I PRAY this is not true, I can't quite believe that.... yet.
BUT, look at B. Hussein Obama and his church! Marxist Black Liberation Theology with no hint of real Christianity.
Pray folks, pray. (and read the Word Of God with others that Know)
According to Barna Research, the percentage of Christians that hold to the biblical worldview is even less now!
Excerpt:
Biblical Worldview
For several years, The Barna Group has been tracking how many people possess a "biblical worldview." The organization defines such a life perspective on the basis of several questions about religious beliefs. The definition requires someone to believe that absolute moral truth exists; that the source of moral truth is the Bible; that the Bible is accurate in all of the principles it teaches; that eternal spiritual salvation cannot be earned; that Jesus lived a sinless life on earth; that every person has a responsibility to share their religious beliefs with others; that Satan is a living force, not just a symbol of evil; and that God is the all-knowing, all-powerful maker of the universe who still rules that creation today.
Using that framework, Barna discovered that the percentage of adults holding a biblical worldview has remained minimal and unchanged over the past three years, despite the widespread public debate about moral issues and the efforts of thousands of churches to enhance people’s moral convictions. Currently, only 5% of adults have a biblical worldview. The percentage varies among faith groups. About half of all evangelicals have such a perspective. Overall, 8% of Protestants possess that view, compared to less than one-half of one percent of Catholics.
Reiterates the truth of Jesus' words:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The percentage of people not holding a Biblical worldview is not that surprising considering how few churches emphasize Bible study. I have known some wonderful friends and devout people who were Catholic, and I have asked them about their church's emphasis on Bible study and the answer is basically that there is none. A large number of churches have dropped the ball on what should be a very basic part of church life. What many of them may have realized too late is that there is no substitute. Some churches never realize it at all.
Referencing some of your other blogs, Christine, I find myself feeling that the church (as in the major body of Christians in the US) will have little to do with stopping much of the secular and anti-Christian agenda that is very prevalent in the US, and much worse in other parts of the world. Once it was strong enough to do so. I no longer think that is the case.
Please to not misunderstand. I am not advising resigning to defeat or silencing ourselves or giving up. Quite the opposite actually. Our roll of speaking out for the truth is more essential now than ever. I just get the feeling that when victory over such ideas come, it will be so amazing, so divorced from human organizations, that many will be forced to admit that it could only be the work of God. I claim no gift of prophecy or special word from the Lord in this matter. That's just the impression I have.
For years, I've heard the term "biblical worldview" tossed around by you and some others.
Since you've got the Apologetics certificate and all, you should be able to answer this: exactly what is meant by "biblical worldview"? Not what you mean by it; the term appears to be a universal one, so there must be some standard that all True Christians(c) agree upon.
I'm neither a true Christian nor a false one, just a bystander. Presumably this worldview encompasses more than "Jesus lived, he died, he rose again, he went away, and he's coming back, and in the meantime he wants you to tell everyone the good news about him"...right?
Because we don't speak the same language to each other, I can't follow your reasoning, and you certainly don't follow mine. Most of your recent posts have consisted of links to others' words rather than any words of your own, so citing a source for "biblical worldview" shouldn't be difficult for you.
I just want to know what the term means. Enlighten me!
Hi Gary,
Great comment! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I have been fortunate enough to have attended two churches over the past 20 years that do hold to the Bible-based worldview. I have led Bible studies at them. I have visited and attended Bible studies/classes in half a dozen other churches.
As you already know, at any given time, there are believers and non-believers in any denomination of Christian church. Visitors, as well as those who have not yet made the heartfelt commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their lives sit in the pews every week.
Unlike you, I was VERY surprised to hear that low amount of people who hold to a biblical worldview. However, ever since I started blogging, I can clearly see why this is so. There are many people who label themselves as Christians, yet ignore what the Bible says.
When that awful Jeremiah Wright and his rants became public, I was so shocked! I never even heard of "Black Liberation Theology" until Obama's church became news.
The two black pastors I know are solid biblical worldview preachers. They both have congregations of that consist of member of all races. Neither pastor has ever been shown to have a racist bone in their bodies!
Prophecies in the Bible reveal that many hearts will grow cold; people will fall away from the faith; many false prophets will rise; and the spirit of Antichrist will be already existing in the world. (Not THE Antichrist...but the spirit of Antichrist is obviously all around us these days.) Meanwhile, the gospel will be preached to all four corners of the earth.
Jesus told us that the "wheat" and the "chaff" will grow together in the churches. But the Lord knows His own.
We don't know the day or the hour, but the signs of the times do indicate that our redemption may be near.
You mentioned that "Our role of speaking out for the truth is more essential now than ever."
Exactly!
The Bible tells us that one day, every knee will bow before Jesus Christ. Those whom He calls His own will be filled with joy. Those who rejected Him will be filled with remorse and regret.
I am glad to read that you don't advocate, "... resigning to defeat or silencing ourselves or giving up."
No matter what happens in this world, we both know which side wins!
Jesus warns us, and at the same time comforts us with these words of truth:
Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
GM,
The Barna quote contains a description of what it means to hold to a biblical worldview.
However, for a more detailed description, see this site.
Here's a portion of it:
The most simplistic definition for a biblical worldview is to have the mind of Christ.
[see these "Mind of Christ" Bible verses.]
The author goes on to explain what that means:
That would mean that one would think like Christ; love like Christ; act like Christ; walk like Christ: have the humility, patience, longsuffering and all of the other Galatians 5:22–26 fruits of the Spirit. Christ would not only be the model but the individual’s worldview would be an exact copy. That is the final target of the committed Christian’s process of sanctification.
Tall order...eh?
Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Good Word, Sosthenes.
I was thinking about the portion in the video where Oprah takes offense at the statement made by her former minister - the one where he expressed that God is a jealous God. If you watch the video again, notice how she blatantly twists the original meaning of the minister's statement. She asks, "And God is also jealous? God is jealous of me?"
That was astounding to me! Her lack of knowledge of God's Word, lack of proper biblical exegesis, as well as her personal pride and arrogance were all revealed in just those two questions!
Hmmm...okay. At least they acknowledge that a 'worldview' is not necessarily of the individual's choosing. Thank you.
I don't claim to know how Jesus would think in a given situation. He never mentioned homosexuality, "so it's obviously okay, right?" Well, he never mentioned slavery either, and many people--not all of them slaveowners--thought that was obviously okay. Right? I have no assurance that I shall sit at the father's right hand, so I lack the confidence he had. I can't think like that.
Did he show patience and longsuffering? Oh yeah; it took some of his disciples the full 42 months to realize what he'd been trying to tell them. Even then, he had to die and return before they really "got it". According to some, I won't get it until I'm stretched out on Satan's meat rack, because I was unlucky enough to be born 1900+ years later, and couldn't see it for myself.
As for humility...
Matt. 12:6: “Behold, in this place is one greater than the temple.”
Matt. 12:41: “Behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”
Matt. 12: 42: “Behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”
The words are those of Jesus. He is describing himself. That's not exactly the 'meekness' Galatians talks about, especially since Jesus claimed that virtue in Matthew 11.
The love of Christ is well-documented, but still open to some dispute. You know the passages as well as I, so I'll repeat only one of them here:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mt 5:43~44
Fine words, those. Even one such as I can appreciate them. They're some of the bible's noblest words; not quite up to Ecclesiastes, but very fine. Which is why it's all the more jarring a mere six chapters later, when Jesus curses two towns that had rejected him:
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Mt 11:20~22
Where's the longsuffering? Where's the "seventy times seven" standard for forgiveness?
Yeah, that's a tall order, all right. If Jesus himself couldn't achieve it, that doesn't sound hopeful for the rest of us.
I'm just passing thru but I wanted to comment real quick. Humility is not about being lower than you are. It's not saying " I'm horrible and disgusting!!" if you aren't. It is holding your proper place outwardly and in your own heart without being puffed up with pride. Jesus being the Son of God, being the Greatest of All, is in fact rather restrained I would say in the 3 verses I see hear. Rather it is a person full of pride who will not bow before their creator. Even still, you don't see him proclaiming down the street the truth of his greatness but using it to correct the errors of the pharisees Matt 12:7 "But if ye had known what this meaneth..". Jesus didn't come to curse the world, the world has cursed itself in it's rejection of him, but to save it to all who would follow him. Before I go, discerning these things is easier when you stop hating Jesus and, in understanding of your state of sinfullness, repent and follow him instead.
Two passages come to mind:
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Mat 7:13-14)
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers! (Mat 7:21-23)
Hey there, GMP,
You assume a great deal when you say that Jesus could not achieve the "seventy-times" seven standard of forgiveness. For example, how many sins would you estimate that you sin or have sinned in your life? If you are like me (and the rest of humanity) it probably far exceeds that. Now I don't know your relationship with God outside of what you have printed at your site. Mine is that I have asked for forgiveness and received it. It doesn't sound as if the lands that Jesus was speaking to were in much of a "repentance" frame.
Referring to your some of your quotes, the first part about Jonas was "When the people of Ninevah heard the words of Jonas...", or in other translations "Jonah", they repented, and God spared the city for many years before finally executing judgment. In the same way, he spared Israel many times when they repented and turned to him. If I were a wagering man and had any way to check such things, I would imagine that his patience far exceeded the measure cited here.
As for your comments on meekness, you seem to forget that though Jesus acknowledged his title and majesty, that of God, he never took the privileges that came with it. Not when he dressed himself as a slave when he washed the disciple's feet. Not during any of his ministry did he demand his due. He presented the truth to people. If they accepted it, fine. If not, then they would be condemned by their own actions and attitudes. It is much the same today.
I don't know why many people like to bring up "Jesus never mentioned homosexuality." In most cases (a few exceptions) he was speaking to Jewish audiences. To the best of my knowledge, there was not much debate about homosexuality in ancient Israel. People knew it was wrong. No need to reinforce the message where there was no confusion. He did affirm that there was only one pairing arrangement that was approved by God when he quote Genesis "For this reason..." Man and woman were the two that was to become one. The maxim "Silence implies consent" has a bit of history in British common law, but I don't believe it was a valid point of orthodoxy in ancient Israel. Quite the opposite, I expect, since there was one class of sacrifice that was to be made for the sins that the people had committed without even realizing it.
Cherrykool-aid is, by his own admission, a drive-by poster, and so will be ignored.
Hi, Gary Baker.
The subject was not about my 'sins'; it was about having a 'biblical worldview', which Christine described as "hav[ing] the mind of Christ." I merely pointed out that, to me, Jesus appears to be only slightly more virtuous than those around him. He said and did a good many things that we all would do well to emulate. He also said and did a few things that don't fit the job description of Savior.
I can understand the example of Jonas and Nineveh, but what does 'many years' mean to a being that's immortal? Or wasn't Jesus immortal?
I stand by my comments on his lack of meekness. It is true that he washed a disciple's feet, but he also had his own feet washed and anointed, with a costly ointment, and he rebuked his followers when they dared to suggest the oil might be sold and its money used for other purposes. He seemed to regard that foot massage as his rightful due. By his own words, he came to bring war and discord, and said that anyone who chose not to hate his kin and follow him was unworthy of him. That's not what I'd call meek.
I don't understand why both sides like to state "Jesus never mentioned homosexuality" either. There are a great many other things he didn't mention, and I don't see what makes that argument relevant. The 'pairing arrangement' described in Genesis obviously did not apply to kings; that had long been obvious. Kings acted in the name of their gods, and therefore were entitled to the privileges of power and majesty (count the number of Solomon's wives, if you will). That Jesus didn't partake in them didn't make him special, as he admitted that his kingdom was not of this world.
So, if having the mind of Christ involves such examples as those, I think I'll pass. Thanks for asking, though.
GMP
"The 'pairing arrangement' described in Genesis obviously did not apply to kings; that had long been obvious."
On the contrary. The arrangement was (and is) universal. God never condoned the practice of polygamy. He didn't stop it, in the same he doesn't stop many people from committing their sins. Another thing that surprises me is that so many people seem to regard God as a sour-puss, police officer type, rushing in to make an arrest at the slightest infraction, but then turn on a dime saying "See there! See what he approves?" Solomon was mentioned in the scriptures specifically as how his many wives took his heart away from the Lord, especially in his old age. His sins were not particularly surprising, considering that his father David went through many spiritual ups and down, and more than a few were related to too many women in his life.
"they dared to suggest the oil might be sold and its money used for other purposes."
"They" in this case was "he", and he was Judas who liked to raid the poor bag. And you correctly state that he accepted it as his due. He did not demand, did not even ask it, even though the world and all of it's wealth was rightfully his. He permitted it as an act of true love and worship. And he gave a lesson: We can always help the poor, and while that's important, it is not more important that honoring God. Neither is it an "either/or" proposition.
"He also said and did a few things that don't fit the job description of Savior."
Uhhh...no. If you choose to reject him as savior now, that's your prerogative. Eventually it will not be an option, but you will acknowledge him in other ways. So be it.
Something else that amazes me is people that claim to be followers of God, or "Christians", and yet constantly want to put God in their box. Several times I've heard things like "I couldn't believe in a God that would..." or "I couldn't worship a God that would..." And I have to wonder: What is running around in their minds that they are so convinced that their judgment is superior to the Creator of everything. It is very ironic to me that you find Christ lacking in meekness, but you seem to find your own judgments superior.
You can live out your entire life playing a game of "gotcha" with God and the scriptures, but I don't think it will by you anything but resentment and bitterness. If you really want to know what's going on, how about starting by admitting that God is right, and take it from there? It's a lot more fulfilling than the path you appear set on right now.
Hello again, GB.
"Uhhh...no. If you choose to reject him as savior now, that's your prerogative. Eventually it will not be an option, but you will acknowledge him in other ways. So be it."
Uhhh...yes. He did indeed say and do a few things that don't fit the job description of Savior. He did not come to bring peace, but war and discord, and said that anyone who chose not to hate his kin and follow him was unworthy of him. You didn't try to deny that. I too am amazed by followers of God, or "Christians", who constantly want to put God in their box. The box serves to keep the God within certain restraints--not to mention that it keeps the "Christian" from having to share his God with anyone else.
I don't find my judgments superior to those of Jesus, but then again I don't claim the Creator of the Universe as my father, nor do I curse cities simply because they don't do as I tell them.
"...but you will acknowledge him in other ways." Am I supposed to start quaking now? Sorry about that. Is this also a part of the 'biblical worldview'--to issue veiled threats like a Mafia thug? So be it. If having the mind of Christ involves such examples as those, I think I'll pass.
The resentment and bitterness period is long behind me now, and my 'worldview' has no need of a sky-father. Thanks for asking, though.
Hey GMP,
There is another box people have tried to put him - The box of "He doesn't live up to my expectations." As in "He did indeed say and do a few things that don't fit the job description of Savior." You seem to forget that is a two-part title. It is "Lord and Savior." He has the power and authority to determine the definitions. Not you. Not me. You are free to be unhappy with them. If God doesn't meet your standards, well I doubt you meet his either. The difference is that he has the ability to enforce his opinion. So it goes.
As for your examples, very typically bereft of context. When people ask me what the most important verse in the Bible is, I say there are two: The one before and the one after whichever one you are studying at the time. You might have to dig a little deeper than that in this case, but the truth is in there. He did indeed not come to bring peace to the earth. Salvation, like holiness, and peace, is a personal gift. It wasn't offered nation by nation, but person to person. And unless you put God first in your life, you are not likely to experience. The result of a world that refuses to do so is very predictable: The type of strife and destruction that we see around us.
"Is this also a part of the 'biblical worldview'--to issue veiled threats like a Mafia thug?"
Your statement would have some merit if I were in any way threatening you. I am not. My background is not apologetics. It is engineering. I have a great appreciation for things that work and how they work. If children play in the street and say eventually that an accident will occur, I am not threatening them with an accident. I am pointing out the outcome of a particular behavior. In the same way, it matters little to me whether you refuse to acknowledge God. That is between you and him. I am simply pointing out that eventually you will no longer have the option.
I disagree with you that you are past the bitterness period. Your writing reveals a great deal of it, as well as your great need for God. Regrettably, there is little I can do about that. I am limited to pointing out doctrinal errors in your writing. I hope that you can find the peace that you need.
I have been following along and reading this marvelous conversation between GMPilot and Gary Baker.
GM, as usual, is asking some intriguing questions.
Gary, you are doing a terrific job answering them. Are you sure that you don't have any background in Apologetics? To be sure, the Bible is a great teacher in gaining the ability to defend the faith.
Last night, I did my homework for "The Truth Project." I will post it later. Many of the questions can be applied to the Oprah video and the conversation going on here.
GM, I would like to ask you a question. What did you think of Oprah, her guru, and her New Age Religion as depicted on that video?
Hi Christine,
No formal training, but I have been privileged to learn under some really great Bible study teachers and teaching pastors. Also, if you haven't had a chance to listen to Ravi Zacherias, either on the radio or read some of his work on the network, I heartily recommend it. That's a teacher that really has his stuff together. Aside from the teachers, there is of course reading and study on my own, a lot of prayer, and the grace of the spirit. The learning has come in fits and starts, anything but consistent for a long time. A lot is still mysterious to me, but I hope that I at least am gaining a good grip on the basics. I've got a couple of daughters that I need to get well grounded before they head out into the "real world."
GB,
I already know that someday I will no longer have an option. This isn't news.
"I disagree with you that you are past the bitterness period. Your writing reveals a great deal of it, as well as your great need for God. Regrettably, there is little I can do about that."
Thank you for telling me what I think. Maybe you can also tell me how much cash I have in my pocket.
Clearly you have a great need for God, but it's a great mistake to presume that everyone does.
Fortunately, there is little you can do about that.
"GM, I would like to ask you a question. What did you think of Oprah, her guru, and her New Age Religion as depicted on that video?"
The instrument has not been built that can measure my indifference to Oprah. Let me make that clear from the start.
That said, I opine her New Age religion is the same as that Old Time religion. No different in degree, only in direction.
That video said her "church" was the largest church in the world--as if a simple body count made it important.
Christine, you of all people should know better: how many followers did your Jesus start out with, eh? And in some middle-eastern land about the size of Maryland...and where is his church now? How big is it now? How influential is it now? And Jesus didn't even have radio! You must really have your knickers twisted over this if it takes a so-called 'lost soul' like me to point out that numbers aren't everything.
Her 'guru' (interesting you should use that term) looks and sounds rather like that Way of the Master guy--Comfort, isn't it?--looks and sounds rather like Comfort would if Comfort had gone off the deep end. Oh, wait...
Her opinions count...why? Because she's got more money? So does Bill Gates, and AFAIK, he doesn't waste his or anyone else's time with the unnatural. He clearly doesn't believe in it. You think her religion is false. I think all religions are.
(Was there any such thing as "apologetics" before the Enlightenment? Or did it begin to develop as science and reason, and more important, the real world, began to make itself felt some four centuries ago? Maybe I should look that up.)
Of course that video has its own drum to beat (literally). Is Jesus the only way? Oprah apparently doesn't think so. Neither does Ehud Olmert, but I don't see Our Eyes Are Opened Ministries getting all spastic about him!
Is it really 'the largest church in the world'? You mean TBN doesn't reach that many households?! Or Sun Myung Moon's body count has dropped?
Has she really 'turned [her millions of fans] over to a New Age doctrine'? You mean they're...sheeple?! Boy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
Anyway, what was Jesus preaching, if not about a New Age?
It's as I told you and Sothenes months ago: if the so-called "emergent" churches are taking away from the 'traditional' ones, it's because the former is doing something that the latter is not...and it can't all be deception. If you want to get those numbers up again, you'd better find out what it is, and fast! Claiming that you're the 'elect' because you weren't deceived isn't going to cut it.
'Some intriguing questions', eh? I never expected to hear that from you. I trust you've not been disappointed.
GM said, "Of course that video has its own drum to beat (literally). Is Jesus the only way? Oprah apparently doesn't think so. Neither does Ehud Olmert, but I don't see Our Eyes Are Opened Ministries getting all spastic about him!
(Jumping into the kettle here...)
Who is Ehud Olmert? Exactly! Never heard of him! And I can imagine there are millions of others who haven't heard of Ehud too! Who HASN'T heard of Oprah?
The reason we Christians get all spastic about Oprah is because she is reaching millions of people with her subtle cultic messages. That's why the stand must be taken!
You're right that numbers aren't everything, but hey, they do get our attention!
cm
Good day, carlotta.
You could easily do a search, but I'll save you time: Ehud Olmert is the current prime minister of Israel, a place I'm sure all Christians have heard of.
The point I was attempting to make is that Olmert is a Jew, and therefore also does not believe that Jesus is the only way. But Christians only sometimes get spastic over the beliefs of Jews. In the past century that activity was rather common; currently it's not.
Given the right worldview, however, 'tak[ing] a stand' against that particular class of non-Christian could suddenly become popular again. That's all I meant.
Okay GM, you got me! I have "heard" of Ehud Olmert, but my post should have proven the point. The average Christian will not recognize Ehud Olmert's name compared to an Oprah Winfrey's name without researching it.
Oprah has the name recognition and Ehud Olmert does not. But I disagree with you about Christians NOT getting spastic over unbelieving Jews. There are far more groups, websites, books and etc. dedicated to Christians wanting the Jews "completed" and believing in Christ, then sites dedicated to converting Oprah. So name recognition, Ehud Olmert doesn't compete with Oprah Winfrey. But what he represents as an "incompleted" Jew is much more than Oprah's mismash of unbelieving topics.
GMP,
"Thank you for telling me what I think. Maybe you can also tell me how much cash I have in my pocket."
I leave attempts at psychic mind reading to the liberals. They are convinced they know everything anyway. Your writing tells me (and everyone else reading) about your current state of bitterness, so I guess there is no need to continue on that line. As for how much change you have in your pocket, not enough to bring you peace with your view of life.
"Clearly you have a great need for God, but it's a great mistake to presume that everyone does."
Clearly I do and I freely admit that. You and I disagree on whether or not everyone else. Nothing I can say will convince you otherwise, so I will not try.
You are rather difficult for me to track overall. You ask some interesting questions, though again they often indicate the bitterness that you deny (Or did it begin to develop as science and reason, and more important, the real world, began to make itself felt some four centuries ago?)Outside of that you jump around a great deal. I prefer to focus more in discussion, but that's just me. We'll probably come across each other again. Be well in the meantime.
Yeah, I'll pray for you too, GB.
carlotta, the only point your post proved is that you don't keep up with world affairs. But I'm willing to bet you can tell me everything about what allegedly happened in Israel, say, about 1,970 years ago...including who ruled there.
If you lived on either side of the West Bank, I'm sure you'd know exactly who Ehud Olmert is, and equally sure you wouldn't give a rat's patootie about who Oprah Winfrey is or what she believes. Name recognition depends largely on where you live, and how much time you devote to that person. I know who Oprah is, but if I think about her beliefs at all, they get as much consideration as yours do...
Now, do you think Our Eyes Are Opened Ministries will campaign to conver--sorry, complete Ehud Olmert?
When Christians get spastic about what Jews believe, the results are very painful for the Jews. Such episodes are a matter of recorded history. (You know where I'm going with this, right?) Jews, AFAIK, do not proselytize; they accept those few who come to them, but they haven't marched forth in the name of YHWH for a very long time now.
Abraham's other children--Christianity and Islam--spread largely by the sword, and both preyed upon the Jews. They're both still doing it. Although today's Christians don't bar Jews from certain professions nor shove them into gas chambers, they do something worse. They call them "incomplete". They try to kill their culture (as opposed to Muslims, who only try to kill the people). Christians claim to worship "the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob", acknowledging they not only worship the Jewish God, but that this God has been with the Jews far longer than any Christian sect can claim; yet somehow it's the Jews who are missing out on something.
Jews are not 'unbelieving', of course. They just don't believe what you do. This compulsive need to 'complete' the Jews has been futile thus far. Jesus himself was one of them, and he couldn't do it. Christians, who try (and have tried) to press-gang Jesus' tribe into their own ranks might do well to remember that the divine smackdown has fallen on those who mess with the Chosen People too much. Any self-respecting Jew would be (rightfully) offended if told that by some alien standard, he is 'incomplete'!
That's all I have to say now.
You still following this, hostess?
GM: "carlotta, the only point your post proved is that you don't keep up with world affairs."
No GM, the only point that proved is that I don't remember the Prime Minister of Israel's name.
GM: "Name recognition depends largely on where you live, and how much time you devote to that person. I know who Oprah is, but if I think about her beliefs at all, they get as much consideration as yours do...
I have never been a enthusiast of Oprah. Don't watch her shows, don't read her magazines and etc. So your theory is warped because it's not even based on truth. Here in our country we are inundated with Oprahisms...so it's quite possible to know of Oprah without even liking her.
So silly of me to keep going back and forth with you about very meaningless things.
You may continue, but I'll bow out at this point.
GM,
I have been following this thread. However, as you can see from Gary and Carlotta's recent responses, they have noticed your bitterness will not allow any breakthrough towards the truth being shared by them here.
You equate what Oprah is saying and selling with her New Age guru as just as ridiculous as true biblical Christianity? That's harsh!
But it's not surprising...coming from you.
C.S. Lewis once said that each man has to make a choice about Jesus. He/she must decide whether Jesus is a "liar, lunatic, or Lord."
Gary, Carlotta, and I have obviously chosen the answer to Jesus' question, "Who do you say that I am?" as the third choice - He is Lord.
What's your choice?
My choice? "Legend".
So...you are choosing to place him in the "liar" category?
Jesus proclaimed that he came to testify to the truth. He also told us that he is the Son of God, not a "legend."
If you didn't want to hear my answer, why'd you bother to ask?
I said "legend", which is not spelled l-i-a-r. If I thought he were, I would have said so.
GM,
"Although today's Christians don't bar Jews from certain professions nor shove them into gas chambers, they do something worse. They call them "incomplete". They try to kill their culture (as opposed to Muslims, who only try to kill the people).
I don't like to use words like "warped" or "ignorant", but you leave me little choice.
To equate encouraging people to accept a promise given and fulfilled with destroying a culture. I have met several completed Jews through the ministries of our church. With the possible exception of some very orthodox sects, they tend to be the most observant Jews I have dealt with. And, while admittedly that is not a great number, it is significant. Most of the Jews that I have crossed paths acknowledge their Jewish roots as a matter of heritage, but attach no religious significance to it. Israel today is a hugely secular country with around 80% of the people having no religious affiliation at all. Considering that the Christians are not planning on bulldozing the area and making it into a giant parking lot, what are we supposed to be destroying? You had a good liberal arts education, right? Lots of pontificating, followed by zero introduction into how what's really going on in the world?
Far from abandoning their Jewish roots, the completed Jews I met are ferociously devoted to their heritage, their culture, their holy days, their festivals. They look forward to the day when the temple will be restored. Not because the Muslims will be gone, but because they can restore the proper sacrifices to God.
"his compulsive need to 'complete' the Jews has been futile thus far. Jesus himself was one of them, and he couldn't do it. Christians, who try (and have tried) to press-gang Jesus' tribe into their own ranks might do well to remember that the divine smackdown has fallen on those who mess with the Chosen People too much. Any self-respecting Jew would be (rightfully) offended if told that by some alien standard, he is 'incomplete'!"
You make a wonderful point about those who try to oppress the Jews receiving punishment. Those who have done so have inevitably been punished. It is significant that both Judaism and Christianity grow best under persecution. Islam and Liberalism grow best while oppressing. So it goes.
As for the matter being futile, the process has shown results and continues to do so. I am more than content to let God judge the results.
And considering the attitude your responses show, I would not necessarily consider you a valid source on what the reactions of a "self respecting" person. We understand that you are offended. And if you had done a proper amount of research, you would know that the standard is hardly alien, but what was foretold by their own prophets. All we are asking them to do is accept what was foretold. It is true that the Jews have had the message longer historically, but it is new to each generation. Thus, the call continues.
GM -
Buy negating what Jesus has proclaimed about himself, you are, in fact, rejecting him. Thus, you are also guilty of calling him a liar.
Jesus is the Truth. He doesn't give you the option of calling him a "legend."
Gary -
I can relate to your frustration with GM. He has been arguing with me for several years now.
Have you ever visited my message board?
There are dozens of convos between GM and I there. Here is just one of the most viewed ones:
Rationalizing God's Latest Felony.
The original post, as well as the discussion there reveals GM's mindset about how he personally views the God of the Bible quite well.
The Question, as you well know, Christine, is in both Mark 8 and Matthew 16. Although the story is essentially the same, Matthew's version is just a bit more embellished.
In both versions, Jesus was said to be John the Baptist, Elias, or one of the prophets, but Matthew added Jeremias to the list.
The real difference in the story comes when he asks the Big Question:
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. (Mar 8:29~30 KJV)
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Mat 16:15~17 KJV)
Mark sounds to my 'warped, ignorant' ear like the true story; Matthew sounds like the making of The Legend. In Mark Jesus rebukes Peter, then after gathering his followers and his disciples, speaks what have become some of the most popular verses in the bible (and outside of it, too). In Matthew, Jesus praises Peter for giving the "right" answer, and tells him that he (Peter) will be the rock the church will be built upon, and how he will receive the keys to heaven, yada yada. Then Jesus "charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ." (:20)
Jesus' response in both versions are not the same. I stand by my statement.
Your messsage board has been on life-support for over two years, Christine. You'd grown so bored with it that you even challenged me to come here! Whassamatta, have you decided to troll for more readers now?
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